Disappointed dressage mum :(

shannonandtay

shannonandtay

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So daughter did her second dressage test today, thanks to everyone with the tips on the calling it went really well and daughter and ponio went lovely no major mistakes. Last month when they did intro a she came first with some really positive comments from the judge, this time we had a different judge but I actually thought he went even better this time so hopes were high, but when we got the results the marks were fairly low and the comments in the observation section kept stating he wasn't in an outline or he was a little over the bit, there was no positive remarks and his comments at the end again stated that pony needs to work In a softer outline. This was only intro b and the outline wasn't even mentioned in the last test, poor daughter was disappointed as she thought they had done really badly when in fact pony was really obedient and responsive as he usually is. Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think being in an outline was the be all and end all of an intro test or have I got that completely wrong. Sorry for the moan just confused by two very different judges opinions.
 
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Don,t be disheartened, it is like anything else every judge has their own opinion. My sister competes in dressage a lot and it is amazing how different results can be.

In fact the higher you go in dressage it would appear where you get the more experienced judges the more consistent the marks are.

Encourage your daughter to go with what her instructor advises, and take some videos when she competes so she can analysis them later and make comparisons for herself and discuss with her instructor.

I am sure others with more experience than me will be along with advice
 
from the start of training the horse you are working for correct training..... and being in an outline is part of this (but this obviously comes through being forwards, contact, straightness, rthym etc etc)..... so in an intro test you should aim for correct training..

however all judges have likes and dislikes.....you may have had someone judging you that has had no judge training!!!!
who was the judge? i can go see if they were registed for you!
 
Maybe you could have a tactful word with the organisers, adding in positives (lovely venue/ good parking arrangements or whatever), just to say you felt the judge could have been more encouraging in their comments. I have written for judges at local riding club dressage events and although judges do tend to vary, most do appreciate that at grass roots/intro level a little encouragement goes a long way. If we get good feedback about a judge we are likely to ask them again! I hope your daughter is not put off and does even better on her next outing :)
 
Don't feel too disheartened. Very few ponies or horses in the Intro classes work in a consistent outline as it is for the young and novice horse and rider combinations at the beginning of their training. It is 'Intro' after all!

The judge should balance the positives against the negatives; he /she should praise the accuracy, the submission, the bend, the stretching into the contact, where appropriate and so on. The focus should not be on the negatives and any criticism needs to be constructive, so that the participant can learn and do better next time.
 
I can see the point about correct training, and I did already check the judge and he is registered up to list 5, thanks anyway.

I thought about mentioning it but thought they would see it as sour grapes so decided against it. I did think intro would be a little less strict being as it is where people start, but found his remarks very negative and mostly about outline. I think my daughter has had her confidence knocked a bit which is a shame as she is only 13, And especially as another horse had a couple of issues when going round but was still placed higher. Oh well that's all the fun of competing I suppose even at low levels.
 
Try not too feel disappointed. As others have said different judges have the things they like the horse to do and if it isn't there then it is mentioned. We (and when I say we I mean OH riding and me shouting instructions) have come across times when there is nothing written but negative comments but then lots of boxes were blank which we took as there was nothing too negative about that part.

I would go along with the advice of following the instructors advice. Next time you will possible get a judge that will focus on other things.

Also I would second the recording of the test. If anything this will let the instructor see what is happening.

it went really well and daughter and ponio went lovely no major mistakes.
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To me this says a lot. There were no major mistakes. Also well done on the calling :)

Pick the positives and highlight them. Regardless of the score were there smiles all round after the test? If so that is more important.
 
Well you can't win them all and maybe the pony was over bent or a poor outline, just because they didn't write a gushing, praising test doesn't mean the judge wasn't right? The important thing is that the judge judged them all the same and fairly, if you don't think this happened then complain.
If you feel strongly about it then write to the show organisers that you feel the judges were too harsh with their comments and your daughter should have been placed higher and had nicer things written as it was only her second dressage test and she needs more confidence in the ring...I'm sure the judge will take on board your positive comments!
Try again next time, different day, different judge and hopefully a more positive outcome.
 
Don't worry about it too much. Some judges are harsher than others in the comments they write. Keep going to competitions and you will see what comments different judges make and things that are noted by more than one person are going to be the things you need to work on most.
However the most important thing is that the pony behaved and all went okay.
 
Spit That Out said:
Well you can't win them all and maybe the pony was over bent or a poor outline, just because they didn't write a gushing, praising test doesn't mean the judge wasn't right? The important thing is that the judge judged them all the same and fairly, if you don't think this happened then complain.
If you feel strongly about it then write to the show organisers that you feel the judges were too harsh with their comments and your daughter should have been placed higher and had nicer things written as it was only her second dressage test and she needs more confidence in the ring...I'm sure the judge will take on board your positive comments!
Try again next time, different day, different judge and hopefully a more positive outcome.
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I dont expect her to win all the time and she doesn't lol, I was just asking opinions on what judges look for at basic levels. The judge was right as he wasn't in an outline but going by his comments very little else was wrong with the test, whereas before the judge had pointed out certain areas to improve on as well as putting some positive comments, then both in my daughters next lesson and when she was practicing she was working on those things. Obviously there were a couple of other things mentioned in his comments but I wasn't expecting most of the comments to state about an outline in an intro test.
 
Hugs. Not that I think kids should get special treatment or anything but I do think some judges seem to take things incredibly seriously. I'm my daughters last test her horse refused to go near C and trying to diffuse the situation and calm daughter down I said " it's ok don't worry circle again" the judge opened her car door and shouted at her for repeating a move and that if she was over 18 she'd illiminate her!
Her test sheet thing was pretty dire and she was upset.
I think maybe a few positive comments thrown in amongst the negatives would be more constructive.
 
Its lovely that your daughter did so well in her first test, and you may be a little confused by the second test sheet - this does happen sometimes. You need to consider dressage as a never ending journey, when i find myself looking at a test sheet like your second one i tend to think of it as an indicator of the direction i should be travelling in not necessarily where i should be right now. I recommend that you discuss the sheet with your instructor who should be able to help you to put it in context with the pony's personal training program. Encourage your daughter to look forward and not dwell on it too much.
 
While the judge should be accurate of course, at this level the marking should be fairley generous and the comments constructive and kind.You are not riding at this level because you are carl Hester.My very experienced instructor was telling of a similar starter class at their local riding club.Judge gave 2s and 3s and scathing comments.Some people were in tears.She felt that this was unexceptable.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Hugs. Not that I think kids should get special treatment or anything but I do think some judges seem to take things incredibly seriously. I'm my daughters last test her horse refused to go near C and trying to diffuse the situation and calm daughter down I said " it's ok don't worry circle again" the judge opened her car door and shouted at her for repeating a move and that if she was over 18 she'd illiminate her!
Her test sheet thing was pretty dire and she was upset.
I think maybe a few positive comments thrown in amongst the negatives would be more constructive.
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At a similar fairley low level show near us a young woman was riding a warmblood (young) and it was really playing up.Judge got out of her car, went and assisted the young woman and encouraged her to complete as much of the test as she felt able.
 
It is a shame she came away feeling like that but that's life for you :) The judge (BD listed) we had at our dressage last week said they were supposed to only give positive feedback - i.e. what you need to do to make it better rather than saying what when wrong. However as she said it was really difficult to do at times. Personally I think she marks really fairly but her marks can be low but that's because in reality they should be.

We ask our W&T judge to make sure the competitors have time to settle in the Arena as they are either very novice riders or on young horses and so we allow extra time between times for this.

To be honest I think it is a good lesson to learn around horses not everything goes right and sometimes you won't like what people say about you or your horse and you need to deal with it and move on which I am sure she will if you don't make a big deal over it.
 
I had a bad experience in an intro test last weekend with my young pony. We've done a few tests and he is still very green, but he's doing the right pace in the right place and the steering is really improving. Last intro test I did I got 60.8%. Last Saturday I went to another riding club, did what I thought was a better test, and came last with 40%. The first comment said 'Not straight' and I was given 3/10. Well, it wasn't straight, but I did trot consistently down the centre line! Every comment was negative. I put a post in the competing forum, I was so downhearted.
I'm a 52 year old who has returned to riding after a long break and my fragile confidence is easily dented! But we just have to accept that some judges at that level are not experienced enough and are really 'up themselves'. As you say, this is an intro test, the aim is to get people into dressage, not put them off!
The advice I was given was to bin the test sheet and move on!
 
I have an extremely obedient pony club school master who did tests with my daughter when she was 11-14. He could practically do Prelim 7 by himself but never was truly on the bit and his marks were consistently 6's, with the odd 7, although he did get a 9 once for the free walk. His usual test score was 64%, but he was consistent!
I have written for a lot of judges at affiliated level but the worst judge I ever wrote for was at PC level, she was a c** and as a writer I will filter out rude remarks as your comments should be objective and I have also found the less experienced the judge is the more focused they are on nit picking and not on the whole picture. I once wrote for a judge who did not know the test and basically was expecting me to write and watch the test as she kept missing the movements.
Most judges work from a basis of 6, so if you hit the markers and do the movement you should get that mark, a mistake you go down a mark, give the movement forwards, roundness, bend, expression and you add marks on. Its very rare for anyone to get an 8or above
I would give it a go with different judges, I would also not be afraid of her competing against adults and look at everyones score as a hard marking judge will mark everyone hard . You get to the point where you can just about know what they are going to say so I would try and focus on her over all improvement. If the pony is willing, obedient that's the most important thing, in seeking 'outline' you often end up with a stiff and unhappy pony and rider.
 
Judge at that level should have been more positive and should have put something encouraging but try to read more into it and (ignoring the marks) see the test as a judge. did the lack of a softer outline mean the pony did not bend as well as it could on circles and corners? was he pushing through its back? did it mean the pony was not relaxing his jaw to the bit as well as some others? or was he doing a nice quiet average test but just not showing off his basics as well as he could do. its possible that your daughter was still riding in a new to dressage sort of way and thinking of ridin the test instead of riding the pony and working him as well as she would on a lesson or when she practices at home?
 
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honetpot said:
Most judges work from a basis of 6, so if you hit the markers and do the movement you should get that mark, a mistake you go down a mark, give the movement forwards, roundness, bend, expression and you add marks on. Its very rare for anyone to get an 8or above
I would give it a go with different judges, I would also not be afraid of her competing against adults and look at everyones score as a hard marking judge will mark everyone hard . You get to the point where you can just about know what they are going to say so I would try and focus on her over all improvement. If the pony is willing, obedient that's the most important thing, in seeking 'outline' you often end up with a stiff and unhappy pony and rider.
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erm,no. if theres no bend and no forwardness you are certainly not on a 6! check the scales of training!

if a horse is working truly correctly, is in front of the leg, supple (over the back as well as laterally), submissive, and even , it WILL be in a nice soft outline, so its impossible for a horse to be going "well" and still be a hundred miles above the bit, resisting the contact etc.

so whilst no judge is expecting PSG levels of self carrige at intro, they are expecting the nose to be somewhere vaguely near the vertical!

agree that there needs to be a little leeway at lower level unaff, but not too much-why give people a false impression of how well they are doing so its an even bigger shock when they move up a level or go affil?
if you cant meet the requirements of any test, in any environment, at any point in your life, be it dressage, driving, professional exams etc, you cannot expect a high mark.

sorry if that seems really harsh but theres been several posts along the same lines recently and its a bit *find wall/apply head* you cant expect the judge to ignore the fact that theres a huge hole in the training.
 
Please dont be disheartened as others have mentioned judges are all different.

I have 2 daughters / 2 ponies.

Last month they got 70% and 68.5 % in a prelim test. They went out Tuesday and got 58% each. -

Younger daughter got the 70% and pony rides with nose up in air! older daughter's rides in a nice outline. But younger one was more accurate and got more marks than the one "that looked nicer".

Also dependant on where you do the tests.

PC are fab as judges tend to be kinder with positive comments, and they are all kids.
Last one was a RC event where kids competed against adults who are really into dressage - compete for the club and or have school masters / show level. Not to mention trophy hunters doing a prelim test where they are at novice level.
 
Judges are a law unto themselves and their opinions vary widely. I got reserve champion in one show and in another show a week later, with a different judge, came away with fifths!:confused:

It's good for your daughter to learn that sometimes life isn't fair, all part of growing up and important lessons we all must learn.

It's good she has you to boost her up now though. Ask her if she would like to discuss the remarks with her instructor and focus on a lesson addressing the judges remarks and then dont get involved with that, as this is part of her learning not yours as you cant do it for her , try not to reinforce her sense of injustice as you will stress her further and she needs positivity now from you ...... and help her chill about it all :)
 
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minimex2 said:
Please dont be disheartened as others have mentioned judges are all different.

I have 2 daughters / 2 ponies.

Last month they got 70% and 68.5 % in a prelim test. They went out Tuesday and got 58% each. -

Younger daughter got the 70% and pony rides with nose up in air! older daughter's rides in a nice outline. But younger one was more accurate and got more marks than the one "that looked nicer".

Also dependant on where you do the tests.

PC are fab as judges tend to be kinder with positive comments, and they are all kids.
Last one was a RC event where kids competed against adults who are really into dressage - compete for the club and or have school masters / show level. Not to mention trophy hunters doing a prelim test where they are at novice level.
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argh, again, why is it trophy hunting to make sure the test is within your comfort zone?! why is it trophy hunting to be SO well prepared or to compete for a team. if its not brekaing the rules, why is it so *wrong*?!
my horse is competing at PSG but schooling GP, sisters is about to do the regionals at novice but is schooling advanced! thats not trophy hunting, thats good training and preparation.
its generally agreed you should be training 1, if not 2, levels above what you compete at as a minimum, so that show days are well within the horses comfort zone.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
erm,no. if theres no bend and no forwardness you are certainly not on a 6! check the scales of training!

if a horse is working truly correctly, is in front of the leg, supple (over the back as well as laterally), submissive, and even , it WILL be in a nice soft outline, so its impossible for a horse to be going "well" and still be a hundred miles above the bit, resisting the contact etc.

so whilst no judge is expecting PSG levels of self carrige at intro, they are expecting the nose to be somewhere vaguely near the vertical!

agree that there needs to be a little leeway at lower level unaff, but not too much-why give people a false impression of how well they are doing so its an even bigger shock when they move up a level or go affil?
if you cant meet the requirements of any test, in any environment, at any point in your life, be it dressage, driving, professional exams etc, you cannot expect a high mark.

sorry if that seems really harsh but theres been several posts along the same lines recently and its a bit *find wall/apply head* you cant expect the judge to ignore the fact that theres a huge hole in the training.
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This^^^

Yes kids need to be encouraged to have a go of course but the same marking scales should apply to them as any other comeptitor. Dressage is training the whole idea is to create a harmonious, light and obedient partnership between horse and rider. Why should this not be the case for children too? The standard needs to be set from the start IMO.
 
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:
argh, again, why is it trophy hunting to make sure the test is within your comfort zone?! why is it trophy hunting to be SO well prepared or to compete for a team. if its not brekaing the rules, why is it so *wrong*?!
my horse is competing at PSG but schooling GP, sisters is about to do the regionals at novice but is schooling advanced! thats not trophy hunting, thats good training and preparation.
its generally agreed you should be training 1, if not 2, levels above what you compete at as a minimum, so that show days are well within the horses comfort zone.
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Perhaps because prelim in a novice raises the bar too high for the novices, who get disheartened and receive harsher judges comments, as the judges are using the prelim as a standard to compare the novices against, rather than the other novices in the class? ....:confused:
 
I've had a variety of comments over the competitions I've done. I think it's just something you learn from experience, similar to showing, it is all rather subjective. Although they should be judging along the BD guidelines, I don't think some of them do! Some judges I've had have been really generous with marks (even though in my opinion I have riddne appaulingly) and others have been really harsh.

I always look at my test sheet and think "is that a fair comment?" More often than not the answer is yes, it's just I would rather have had higher marks! I just think as the score is subjective, you need to think personally how you did. Even if you scored low marks, if you actually felt you did a good test/had an improvement etc then focus on that and don't beat yourself up too much.
 
Achinghips said:
Perhaps because prelim in a novice raises the bar too high for the novices, who get disheartened and receive harsher judges comments, as the judges are using the prelim as a standard to compare the novices against, rather than the other novices in the class? ....:confused:
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judge compares all competitors against the FEI directives, so technically they should receive same mark and comments no matter the standard of the other people in the class.
 
honetpot said:
Most judges work from a basis of 6, so if you hit the markers and do the movement you should get that mark, a mistake you go down a mark, give the movement forwards, roundness, bend, expression and you add marks on. Its very rare for anyone to get an 8or above
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From loitering on the BD forum I understood that judges should score with 'why shouldn't this be a 10?' in mind.
So start at 10 (excellent) and then reduce the score depending on what they pick up as faults...so if there are no faults then the score would be a 10.
In reality I guess many judges start with a 6 and nudge it up or down a bit.
 
Achinghips said:
Perhaps because prelim in a novice raises the bar too high for the novices, who get disheartened and receive harsher judges comments, as the judges are using the prelim as a standard to compare the novices against, rather than the other novices in the class? ....:confused:
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Think you might have your prelims and novices round the wrong way...prelim is the easier of the two.
And as said by someone else - the judge shouldn't be comparing horses against one another, they are each compared to the scales of training and the BD / FEI guidelines.
 
Even though your daughter is only 13, there are 13 year olds competing in international FEI pony dressage. These kids are definitely not novices and are more than capable of holding their own against adults, so age is not an excuse for "kinder" marking. When I judge PC or RC I try to be as encouraging as possible, but there is absolutely no point in throwing out high scores when the work is not correct (which it very, very often isn't). If your pony needs to be rounder, softer and more elastic to the contact, then it just does. I actually think the first judge was wrong to give you unrealistic marks. If your daughter wants to really do dressage then she needs to concentrate on fulfilling the requirements.
 
At one show my horse rather unexpectedly won the equitation class - she was hyper at the best of times and worse in the ring, but the judge explained that she realised my mare wasn't a push button ride, I had ridden her through her explosions and actually done everything the judge had asked me to do. Hence I won. The following week with a different judge we were last. I'm afraid if you want to compete even at riding club level you will have to accept that however good you think your horse is, not everyone is going to agree with you and you can't just expect the red rosette.
 
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