Discussion about horse breeding

windand rain

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Probably not the right place but here goes
Do you feel that modern horse breeding is not filling the market need. Are breeders trying too hard to produce the next Big Star or Valegro at the expense of middle of the road amateur horses and are the failures of those breeding ambitions making good amateur horses. Is breeding the reason good riding club type horses are like rocking horse poo as the only things being bred are the dross of £50 scrub foals or elite athlete types. I will add that I know many of the dross foals make great horses it is just the extremes for discussion
 

honetpot

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There just isn't any money even to cover your costs in breeding, perhaps the big sellers, with known competition stallions can cover their costs. The small breeder like I would have been with nicely breed native mares put to a graded stallion of any sort to produce a middleweight riding horse suitable for a non competition/professional home, no.
I have a 2 coming three year old this year, ID green book papered ID cross, by a very well known stallion. No one wanted him at 18mnth, mind he is very uneven, so lets see at 3,he is huge.
The producer of unregistered stock from anything around has not the overheads or the concerns, they sell a foal to anyone for a relatively small amount of money, and looking at some posts on here, they go to unstable homes.
These people will not stop breeding while people can buy a cheap horse or usually pony from them. I hate to bang on about this but the BHS is not getting the message out to the buyers, and they have no chance of reaching the breeders as its a purely financial operation. Breed 10, make a good profit on one, middle profit on a couple more and dump the rest, so its someone else's problem.
 

DabDab

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Yes I think it's very true, the only thing filling that middle road gap breeding wise is the natives really. If someone wants a middleweight horse of about 16.1 that used to be the staple of the leisure horse market, they have to either choose a competition bred warmblood, a racing reject tb, or something from Ireland (where there do seems to be a few more middle of the road sorts thanks to the ID lines).

Not just is the breeding not really there, but the producers also aren't taking on what middle of the road types there are. Most people I know looking for a middle of the road horse either buys a competition bred horse that happens to have an easy temperament, or they buy from Ireland, or buy a big native pony.

Two of mine are middle of the road sorts (though only one is really amateur's horse), and both were bought as youngsters from little hobby breeders who happened to have a couple of nice horses to breed from.
 

TheMule

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The majority of the horse buying population looking for that sort of horse want something that has already been produced. Therefore the breeder either needs to keep the horse and have it produced, making their costs prohibitively expensive for what that market are willing to pay, or we need a more established system of people willing to buy stores to then produce, but that needs land, a bit of risk taking and the people buying still generally won't pay enough.
Those who are willing to buy a youngster won't pay much money for it if it doesn't have super-smart breeding, despite the rising costs to produce a foal and raise it properly without cutting corners.
Then people are importing continental rejects and selling them for less than 5k as a backed 3yr old throwing shapes over big fences and people compare whats on offer from British breeders and think what we're offering is expensive.
 

JanetGeorge

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Breeders are losing money hand over fist with good all round horses. I know - I am NOT breeding any more foals after 2018's crop of pure-bred Irish Draughts. Buyers want bargains (it costs me at LEAST £3,000 to produce a good ID weanling); vets rip breeders off bigtime (and are often incompetent at the basic things like scanning) and most breed societies (including mine) do very little to help.
 

ihatework

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There is a huge market for the middle of the road horse.
The problem is the majority of middle of the road buyers will pay nowhere near what it costs to breed and produce such animals. If the money was regularly there, then people who breed and produce for it. That is assuming these buyers even accept that is the horse they need in the first place!
 

Cortez

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I gave up breeding 25 years ago after moving from fancy WB dressage horses to more middle of the road types. There simply is not any money to be made in producing foals. I did make a living for a while buying 2-to-3 year olds from the unfortunate people who were still breeding, and producing those for the riding club market, but the horses people needed were older, made animals that could be ridden by less than stellar riders and again there is not enough supply, nor money to be made.

For a breeder to make anything on a foal they would need around £4-£5,000. Add at least £1,000 per year after that to cover keep and training, and the average 6 year old should be costing at least £10,000 to be viable as a business proposition.
 

Kaylum

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Stopped breeding 20 years ago no money in it and the price of horses has dropped were selling just backed 3 year olds for £7,000.
 

Bernster

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What a shame but I agree. Dab dab’s post really strikes it home to me.

There just isn’t enough money/profit in it for breeders and people aren’t prepared to pay more it seems. I wonder if this will lead to a correction in the market, but breeding isn’t a short term industry so it would take a while.

I got an imported ID from Ireland where they do seem to still be producing the RC types. He was top of the price range for what he was at the time (he did have good irish breeding) but he was absolutely worth it.
 

Asha

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I see it as two different markets . The first being the WB breeders , who yes are trying to breed the next best thing but when the prices are so high , from a commercial perspective who can blame them ? My issue comes with some breeders breeding too many and using a scattergun approach . Then they find themselves in a pickle as their overheads are too high and they start cutting corners. Then start selling stock off at prices that are below sustainable levels. This then creates a price which buyers will expect across the board . Why not just pick your best broodmares and breed less , but focus on quality rather than quantity . Mount St John seem to be leading the way in doing it right from what I can see . The rejects from the larger breeders don’t always serve a purpose for the amateur levels, I’m sure you will get the odd one , but they don’t breed for temperament, which is what is needed for the average amateur .
I can honestly see a huge gap in the market brewing for the ID, or IDxTB , so many people ( myself included) have been wowed by the WB only to find themselves totally overhorsed. What they really need is an ID or native . The other problem UK breeders have is Ireland, they seem to be able to produce nice types for not a lot money , how our UK breeders can compete with that I don’t know .
Get hold of a good ID broodmare and wait for the bubble to burst 😊
 

Littlebear

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I agree with the other posters, its all about the money! I have bred a horse purely because I didn't want to go through the process of finding another needle in a haystack, plus it would have meant trips abroad etc, so I bred what I wanted but it cost me around £1000 to put my mare in foal to a decent stallion, then the costs of keeping the foal until its 4, if I was doing it to sell I would need to sell for at least 7k just to recoup what I have spent. If I had an average jo riding club type that would be very difficult indeed when everyone seems to want a ready made allrounder for about 3.5k!
 
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Breeders can't cover costs ethically and sensibly producing 'middle of the road' horses; the very bottom end of the market breeders keep going because they just seem to run a bunch of poor quality mares on with a poor quality stallion and then sell the resulting babies for a few hundred pounds to people who can't afford more and think they can produce their own horse.
The only way to cover costs of breeding now is to go upper end or very lower end of the market it seems. Unfortunately this doesn't bode well for those 'lower end' horses who haven't had anything time or moneywise really invested in them to give them market appeal.
 
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sport horse

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Sadly it is all to do with the prices of the 'ordinary Riding Club horse'. Reading posts on here people seem to think that they should be able to buy that for £5000 ish but the reality of producing such a horse is very different. At basic level it costs £1000 per year of a horses life to keep it (just food, farrier, vet etc.). Probaly another £1000 to put the foal on the ground so an unbroken 4 year old should be a minimum of £5000. If you then want that horse broken - say 8 weeks at £200pw - that is another £1600. BUT that is still a very green horse that would take a competent rider at least one year to bring to a reliably safe level. Why should that rider work for nothing? Schooling livery is best part of £200pw so for a year that would add £10,000 so your horse has now cost over 16000 to bring to that level BUT noone in the UK wants to pay that. I actually said some years ago that breeders would stop breeding ordinary horses and it seems that has happened. Hobby riders will either have to accept that they will have to pay more or accept that they will be keeping a possibly unsuitable horse that will not do the job they really want. Breeders are not charities!
 

Red-1

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I agree, I used to want a competition horse, I am now older (and possibly wiser) and had an awful problem finding a "nice" horse. I wanted (what everyone wants) one that was sane, sound, could move and jump but was also kind and not too hot.

I did find it, she was within budget at 9K, but I had to compromise as I did not really want a mare, or a 4yo, or a grey... and she was a tiny bit smaller than I intended. Plus marks are that she is beautiful, she has some competition experience, she moves well enough for pure dressage, jumps well enough to have potential up to Novice Eventing (not that she will ever have to do that). She is ID x TB, and is simply lovely.

It was not the cash that made it hard to find, I would have thrown cash at the job for the right horse - I am too old to make one form myself nowadays. They were simply not out there. Those that were tended to be broken, as in compromised physically.

I do think that there is a huge market for a 6-11yo half bred, sound, uncomplicated, with experience and ability, that is also kind. I think you could charge a pretty penny for that!
 

oldie48

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I agree, I used to want a competition horse, I am now older (and possibly wiser) and had an awful problem finding a "nice" horse. I wanted (what everyone wants) one that was sane, sound, could move and jump but was also kind and not too hot.

I did find it, she was within budget at 9K, but I had to compromise as I did not really want a mare, or a 4yo, or a grey... and she was a tiny bit smaller than I intended. Plus marks are that she is beautiful, she has some competition experience, she moves well enough for pure dressage, jumps well enough to have potential up to Novice Eventing (not that she will ever have to do that). She is ID x TB, and is simply lovely.

It was not the cash that made it hard to find, I would have thrown cash at the job for the right horse - I am too old to make one form myself nowadays. They were simply not out there. Those that were tended to be broken, as in compromised physically.

I do think that there is a huge market for a 6-11yo half bred, sound, uncomplicated, with experience and ability, that is also kind. I think you could charge a pretty penny for that!
My last four horses have all been bought as 11 yr olds, they have all had good competition records and had sane temperaments, hacked out alone and in company and were well mannered on the ground. Breed wise they were TB with possibly a bit of welsh, TB/WB, 7/8ths TB/1/8th ID, and Rose is Hannovarian, apart from the first whom I bought 18 years ago for £3.5K, the rest were a lot more than that and worth every penny. the only one I sold was the most expensive one as he became bored with dressage, he was sold as a 17 year old for more than £3.5K as a sensible hack and is much loved, still going strong in his 20's and in a forever home. Goodness knows why anyone thinks you can buy a nice RC all rounder for £3.5K or for £5K for that matter.
 

eahotson

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I agree, I used to want a competition horse, I am now older (and possibly wiser) and had an awful problem finding a "nice" horse. I wanted (what everyone wants) one that was sane, sound, could move and jump but was also kind and not too hot.

I did find it, she was within budget at 9K, but I had to compromise as I did not really want a mare, or a 4yo, or a grey... and she was a tiny bit smaller than I intended. Plus marks are that she is beautiful, she has some competition experience, she moves well enough for pure dressage, jumps well enough to have potential up to Novice Eventing (not that she will ever have to do that). She is ID x TB, and is simply lovely.

It was not the cash that made it hard to find, I would have thrown cash at the job for the right horse - I am too old to make one form myself nowadays. They were simply not out there. Those that were tended to be broken, as in compromised physically.

I do think that there is a huge market for a 6-11yo half bred, sound, uncomplicated, with experience and ability, that is also kind. I think you could charge a pretty penny for that!
If I was looking for another horse I would pay that for a really reliable one.
 

emilylou

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I do think that there is a huge market for a 6-11yo half bred, sound, uncomplicated, with experience and ability, that is also kind. I think you could charge a pretty penny for that!

I would like to think so. I have bought and produced a mare this year with the intention of selling at a reasonable price as a competent low level allrounder (80-100cm) she is fantastic and when I advertised I had 4 enquiries and two viewings. Now enjoying her myself for the hunting season and waiting till spring.. perhaps it is because she is like Red-1's horse: a mare, grey, a little smaller and not within the 3.5-5k bracket, but she is irish!
 
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Leo Walker

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So how are Ireland producing so many at such cheap prices? I refuse to believe they are making a loss! Whats the difference between the Irish system and the English one to allow them to make a living from it?
 

Pc2003

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I’ve just bought a yearling from Ireland as couldn’t find what I was looking for here in the uk. One thing I did notice was everything was a lot cheaper in Ireland. The vetting was vastly cheaper, the feet trim was cheaper, the transport was cheaper and the the temporary livery was cheaper
 

indie1282

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My last four horses have all been bought as 11 yr olds, they have all had good competition records and had sane temperaments, hacked out alone and in company and were well mannered on the ground. Breed wise they were TB with possibly a bit of welsh, TB/WB, 7/8ths TB/1/8th ID, and Rose is Hannovarian, apart from the first whom I bought 18 years ago for £3.5K, the rest were a lot more than that and worth every penny. the only one I sold was the most expensive one as he became bored with dressage, he was sold as a 17 year old for more than £3.5K as a sensible hack and is much loved, still going strong in his 20's and in a forever home. Goodness knows why anyone thinks you can buy a nice RC all rounder for £3.5K or for £5K for that matter.

I think the area you live in has some impact on the price. I am in Cornwall and £5k would be the top end for an RC Alrounder. I certainly dont know many people who would pay £9k for a 4yo.
 

sport horse

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So how are Ireland producing so many at such cheap prices? I refuse to believe they are making a loss! Whats the difference between the Irish system and the English one to allow them to make a living from it?
I think many of the Irish are making a loss. Also they run their youngstock on very basic grazing and often 'no frills'. Many Irish breeders are now choosing to breed sport horses from European bloodlines so it may well be that this source of riding horses will become more difficult to find in the next few years.
 

Cortez

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I think many of the Irish are making a loss. Also they run their youngstock on very basic grazing and often 'no frills'. Many Irish breeders are now choosing to breed sport horses from European bloodlines so it may well be that this source of riding horses will become more difficult to find in the next few years.

THIS ^^^An awful lot of Irish breeders have a mare or two, run them out with cattle and don't do anything at all with them. Not all, of course.
 

cundlegreen

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I see it as two different markets . The first being the WB breeders , who yes are trying to breed the next best thing but when the prices are so high , from a commercial perspective who can blame them ? My issue comes with some breeders breeding too many and using a scattergun approach . Then they find themselves in a pickle as their overheads are too high and they start cutting corners. Then start selling stock off at prices that are below sustainable levels. This then creates a price which buyers will expect across the board . Why not just pick your best broodmares and breed less , but focus on quality rather than quantity . Mount St John seem to be leading the way in doing it right from what I can see . The rejects from the larger breeders don’t always serve a purpose for the amateur levels, I’m sure you will get the odd one , but they don’t breed for temperament, which is what is needed for the average amateur .
I can honestly see a huge gap in the market brewing for the ID, or IDxTB , so many people ( myself included) have been wowed by the WB only to find themselves totally overhorsed. What they really need is an ID or native . The other problem UK breeders have is Ireland, they seem to be able to produce nice types for not a lot money , how our UK breeders can compete with that I don’t know .
Get hold of a good ID broodmare and wait for the bubble to burst 😊
As a small breeder, I agree with JG and others on here. I have my own stallion and land which keeps down costs substantially. Imo, the first consideration should be temperament and willingness to work, and soundness a close second. I had a plan of what I wanted to produce when I was breeding 2 a year, which was a 15.2hh suitable for RC riders, and good looking enough to appeal to most people. I rarely breed now, but my last planned foal has ended up top 2 yr old at the Futurity last year, coming above very expensive stallions progeny, and he is a Welsh D cross KWPN. So many people are fixated on ID's, but they come in all shapes and sizes, and I still think the bigger natives are greatly underused to breed a good all round type. My "D" crosses are holding their own at a high level of eventing and showing. I certainly couldn't breed to make a living though!
 

ihatework

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Completely with you cundlegreen.
I do think in general the Welsh D is greatly under used as a part bred for competition. Obviously the caveat applies that you want to use the right welsh lines. IMO they generally move better and are more athletic & intelligent. You obviously need to channel that the right way though.
 

catkin

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Completely with you cundlegreen.
I do think in general the Welsh D is greatly under used as a part bred for competition. Obviously the caveat applies that you want to use the right welsh lines. IMO they generally move better and are more athletic & intelligent. You obviously need to channel that the right way though.

Native intelligence is not necessarily the same as 'trainability' that is often desirable in a RC or competition horse ;).

I love Welshies, I grew up with them - they didn't always have the same ideas of what was a 'good' competitive round though. One of mine was a terrific jumper - if there was no alternative such as perfectly good gate nearby, which of course in his point-of-view, was the easier way round. Who can fault his logic?;)
I also had a WelshxTB - fabulous horse, an example of 'the smartest breed crossed with the fastest breed' !!
 

ihatework

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Native intelligence is not necessarily the same as 'trainability' that is often desirable in a RC or competition horse ;).

I love Welshies, I grew up with them - they didn't always have the same ideas of what was a 'good' competitive round though. One of mine was a terrific jumper - if there was no alternative such as perfectly good gate nearby, which of course in his point-of-view, was the easier way round. Who can fault his logic?;)
I also had a WelshxTB - fabulous horse, an example of 'the smartest breed crossed with the fastest breed' !!

Hence my comment ‘the right lines’ and ‘channel’!!

Maybe I have a skewed view of them. The ones I have seen that are problematic are generally purebreds, underworked and in novice homes.

I can’t think of a bad crossbred that I have been aware of. Some quite lively for sure.

Only had 2 part breds myself. A welsh x Anglo as a teenager who I was never in the position to utilise to his full potential. I reckon if I had him now he would be an FEI horse.
And currently have a huge part bred who will be aimed at a 1* by end of year, within 2 years of being back - his middle name is trainable
 

milliepops

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yup if I was to breed for myself I'd have a welsh partbred, either a sporty WB or a good TB
I have had both varieties in the past and found them to be trainable and fun for a competitive amateur, I like connie x too.
(I happen to love my own welshie too, well channelled, that is ;) luckily for my sanity she is too small and too busy to go off on mat leave)
 

oldie48

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Unfortunately I think too many hobby breeders breed from a mare for the wrong reasons and sadly too few owners of stallions can afford to be picky enough either. I know someone who has bred from a well bred, talented but tricky mare that broke down, she used different stallions but all the progeny are tricky, talented but not quite good enough to be a pro's horse and too tricky for most amateurs. There is a very small market for this sort of horse. Temperament/trainability should IMHO always be the first consideration when breeding, don't start with a temperamental mare and try to put a good head on her offspring.
 
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