DIY Livery - paying for damage

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misty_welsh

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Hello, I'm a newbie wanting a bit of advice please!

I've kept my horses at livery on a local farm for the past 12 years without any major concerns.

One of my horses kicked a stable wall and dislodged the bricks (concrete breeze blocks?) along the mortar line (thankfully, he was not injured). When other liveries were in these stables, a horse kicked and the front of the stables fell down! :eek: This has been replaced with wood, which works but is not tied in to the sides so moves and makes closing the doors a bit awkward at times!

Anyway, the farmer wants me to pay quite a lot of money to have the side wall rebuilt. I realise that if my horse had kicked a car, I'd be liable but think he should have his buildings insured. I am pretty sure the previous liveries would not have paid him anything, but they left years ago so I can't confirm this.

Does anyone know if I'm liable for this wall or is he liable for his buildings?

Many thanks :)
 
I don't know the legalities, but when we had DIYs I repaired all damages myself and didn't expect liveries to pay for them. I never had major damage - gutters knocked down with trailers, young trees driven over, and chewed wood in the stables etc.

Its nice to make a gesture, but I don't think you should have to pay it all, and would want to see a few quotes etc if they insisted. I think you've got to expect that you will get walls kicked in a stable! If you've been a good client for 12 years and its the first time that your horse has done damage I think the YO is being a bit mean, and why do you have to pay for the whole wall to be rebuilt. I would think of looking elsewhere and tell him he will have to replace a long term good tennant if you do, which would not be easy!
 
Thanks for your reply.

Over the years, the YO's got a bit 'lax' about repairing fences or doing general maintenance, so we tend to do it ourselves - he says it's down to us anyway as "horses chewing fences or leaning on them isn't maintenance". I've asked him what he thinks is maintenance, but didn't get an answer. When I moved into this stable, my dad and I spent a day rebuilding the doors to make them safe.

A few weeks ago, another livery moved her gelding into my 'bottom field' and gave me five minutes notice (not very happy as horses don't know each other, but getting on ok over fence). My friend left last weekend and this woman moved her mare into the empty field, which is next to mine. I only knew she was there when I turned up in the evening! She has since told me how they had squared up over the fence, all teeth and feet!

I'm shortly moving to another yard, which will leave him with only one livery, and don't want to owe him any money when I go. Although I have no contract, I'm going to give a month's rent in lieu of notice and pay for this other fence that was built a few months ago. However, I can't afford to pay for something I don't need to.
 
Perhaps the farmer is getting tired of doing DIY? We did in the end. It does involve an awful lot of repairs and stress for not much income. Perhaps he is being like this to push people to leave rather than actually asking them?
 
If you were renting a house and something broke the landlord would fix it
I think it is a risk they take for the reward of the rent. Obv if he had no horses in his stables this wouldn't have happened, but then he wouldn't have got 12 years worth of livery!
A good wall wouldn't fall down from a few kicks...
 
i can understand the farmers frustration at fence posts and such like.... but he doesn t seem to be too put off as he has recently had two new liveries. I think if he is taking money in return for a stable to put a horse in then he should make sure it is sound for that purpose... I t should be strong enough to withstand a few kicks. I wouldnt pay for the wall but i would probably offer to bodge it back to its original standard!
 
I had agreements with liveries that if they/their horse damaged/broke something, then they would replace it.
There was a 'caveat' tho - if, for example it was broken/collaped (like fencing) then it was down to me - particularly if they had already warned me about it. (didn't happen, cos I kept on top of maintenance)

This covered me when one horse kicked its way out of the rear of a 2 yr old wooden stable in a temper fit, another jumped a 4 ft p&R fence taking the top bar off in pieces - and also for replacing a (metal!!) field gate when a livery forgot to brake in her jeep & drove straight into it, demolishing it & pulling the posts awry too!

However, in the OP case, I think the farmer could be a bit more accomodating... maybe you could meet half way? :)
 
It should not cost a lot, he can get a builder to reuse the bricks that are there and cost with be for time and fresh mortar to put it back together. Might be worth getting 3 quotes then offer to pay half.
 
misty_welsh said:
Anyway, the farmer wants me to pay quite a lot of money to have the side wall rebuilt. I realise that if my horse had kicked a car, I'd be liable but think he should have his buildings insured. I am pretty sure the previous liveries would not have paid him anything, but they left years ago so I can't confirm this.

Does anyone know if I'm liable for this wall or is he liable for his buildings?

Many thanks :)
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I don't think you are liable. I had a loose horse on the road bump the side of my stationary car causing £750 of damage. The horse owner's insurers are asking me to proove the owner was negligent under the Animal Act 197(?). I am in the process of taking them to the small claims court. So it seems to me that if your horse is acting like a horse. It is up to the property owner to prove that you are negligent and liable for the damage.

With regard to your wall:- As a responsible horse owner myself, I might offer to contribute towards the repair, BUT, how old is the wall. How solid was it. At one yard I was at, a shoulder height brick wall fell in overnight, two very quiet, very elderly horses on each side. In this instance the wall was old and stood up to very little pressure.
 
I wouldn't pay! I would expect any building used for the stabling of horses to be up to the job, horses are known to be unpredictable and these things happen. He should not be charging you for repairs to buildings and should have insurance in place to cover this sort of thing. If your horse kicked a wall and it fell down then he ought to be very glad the building didn't come down with your horse inside it. The building is obviously below standard for the purpose and he has been getting rent for it all the time you have been there.
 
Anyway, the farmer wants me to pay quite a lot of money to have the side wall rebuilt.
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Tell him to shine on. It's what he has insurance for, and falls under the general maintenance that he'll need to do on a regular basis.
 
I can see it from both sides. As a yard owner I know how expensive things are to repair, maintain and install to a high standard.

It is frustrating when horse's have a nibble, or kick something but generally maintentance goes hand-in-hand with the running of a business.

We have had a couple of instances where damage has been done; a horse reversed into the back wall of the solariam and although it didn't fall down it was knocked out of it's footings so needed urgent attention to be made safe. Another horse kicked out and snapped the top rail of the arena fence.

In most cased a client has offered to pay as a gesture of goodwill; but so far we have never accepted their offer. If we were in a repeat situation where a horse kept destroying something we might have to come to an arrangement or look for a solution.

Accidents do happen and breezeblocks are notoriously easy to dislodge, I would suggest that you offer a token gesture and point out that this occurance has highlighted a serious structual problem which he may wish to take this opportunity to rectify while he has an empty stable, as let's face it he won't fill it in it's current state.
 
My horse is on part livery, and i have to pay for his damage repairs. Last year, he took off, in his field and went through a metal gate, completely destroying it. My vets bill was in the hundreds and a new gate cost me £150 as well.

I'm fully insured - The insurance covered the vets bill (bar the excess), but the excess on the damage he caused to the gate was more than the gate cost to replace, so I couldn't claim on that.

TBH, although blimmin annoying, I think it's fair that I had to pay. I choose to own the horse, and I am ultimately responsible for any damage he causes, wherever that happens.

If anyone wants to see the crumpled gate, I have photos! We're all amazed my horse came out of it OK, and at the time I was more concerned about how my horse would recover and didn't really think too much about the gate costs.
 
I can sort of see it from both sides, but it sounds as though the stable wasn't in the best condition to start with so I am sort of swaying towards you. In your position I would offer a small contribution towards the repair but highlight that the stable was substandard to start with.

A few years back one of my horses went through a jealous brat-attack phase whereby he would maliciously kick the back of his stable, properly hard, attention seeking. He was on livery with a friend who had recently had new professionally built wooden stables put in, with half height kick boards. My horse aimed above the kick boards and punched 2 holes in the back wall!!! I replaced slats in the back wall and fully boarded the stable after that out of my own pocket!
 
As a DiY YO all my clients sign a contract saying that any damage their horses cause must be paid for by the owner.

Depends on what you contract says, and if you can prove that the wall was in a state of disrepair prior to the incident......?
 
Just personally i feel if my horse had done some damage i would feel i would have to pay to get it fixed or maybe atleast contribute towards getting it repaired. You have to take into consideration the thoughts the farmer must be thinking.x
 
Thanks for all the replies.

These stables were not in good condition when I moved in and I had to replace both doors to make them horse proof! The central partition had been booted and is marked, but not enough that it needed replacing. The stable front was 'bodged' in sterling board when a previous horse kicked the front down a few years ago and it needed rebuilding overnight!

My youngster was on box rest and kicked the wall (hard) once as I was taking my other horse out - he soon came back in to keep him company - and he was quiet afterwards. The YO wants to replace this side wall with sterlingboard too, doing the work himself and tells me it will cost £800. Seems very steep to me!! I think he wants me to pay as an incentive to leave and also I'm pretty sure he doesn't have insurance ... Just a feeling as he doesn't belive in getting planning permission for things either.

I have previously asked the YO to split my field up with post and rail and have no problem paying for these fences as I asked for them, although I was annoyed at another horse being put next to mine (in my 'bottom half') with no notice. It's a livery whose been there almost as long as me and she's done it twice now, both sides!

When I moved my friend last week, my trailer was blocked in and he wasn't available to move it for a while. I am moving out this weekend and will give him a month's rent in lieu of notice, although I have no contract, as he is getting very little notice!
 
At the risk of making myself unpopular, if you knew the stables were not in good condition before you moved in, why put the horses there.......surely you could see what you would be up against?

Good luck with the move and hope the next yard is more satisfactory.
 
Difficult one to answer.
We had breeze block stabling at our previous yard and it does start to fail after a while. The continual opening of the doors wears away the edges and weakens the structure.
One livery's horse continually barged the door and eventually it gave way, we mended it twice but had to put a massive metal band round the wall in the end to have something to hinge from. The thrid time my husband said they had to contribute as it wasn't wear and tear any longer.
I have never asked anyone for money otherwise, it goes with the livery deal.
I am astonished you are prepared to pay for post and rail as it costs so much money when your stabling sounds sub standard.
If as you say he has benefitted from a post and rail fence then probably I would ppoint that out and not contribute towards the stable repair, on the other hand if it was a kick that damaged it, perhaps an offer to pay for the labour would be fair (not £800!!!!)
 
misty_welsh said:
Thanks for all the replies.

These stables were not in good condition when I moved in and I had to replace both doors to make them horse proof! The central partition had been booted and is marked, but not enough that it needed replacing. The stable front was 'bodged' in sterling board when a previous horse kicked the front down a few years ago and it needed rebuilding overnight!

My youngster was on box rest and kicked the wall (hard) once as I was taking my other horse out - he soon came back in to keep him company - and he was quiet afterwards. The YO wants to replace this side wall with sterlingboard too, doing the work himself and tells me it will cost £800. Seems very steep to me!! I think he wants me to pay as an incentive to leave and also I'm pretty sure he doesn't have insurance ... Just a feeling as he doesn't belive in getting planning permission for things either.

I have previously asked the YO to split my field up with post and rail and have no problem paying for these fences as I asked for them, although I was annoyed at another horse being put next to mine (in my 'bottom half') with no notice. It's a livery whose been there almost as long as me and she's done it twice now, both sides!

When I moved my friend last week, my trailer was blocked in and he wasn't available to move it for a while. I am moving out this weekend and will give him a month's rent in lieu of notice, although I have no contract, as he is getting very little notice!
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£800!!! After I'd picked myself up off the floor laughing I'd have said that's why you have insurance. Stable should have been fit for purpose and be able to withstand a kick! He should think himself lucky that if the wall had fallen down and injured your horse he would be looking at a lot more in vet bills and compensation!!
 
depends on damage

we had a horse recently who damaged my stable so bad by kicking it so door could open inwards some damages i have repaired but this i told liveries they need to do it they had the audacity to say my husband will fix it and give u bill i said no way ( we had made £120 from they in rent) and they wanted us to fork out £350 damages . so


and by the way he did this everyday get stable off bricks for 2 months enough is enough

Now we have a clause saying all damages must be paid for or replaced or repaired.

Its hard enough to pay for the day to day running of the yard without paying for other people damages.

They were a pain had my friends pony on loan in view to buy broke his bridle cut his tail 4 inches above hock when
it was down the the ground cut his forelock straight and mane they said doesn't matter we buying him but they didn't.
we had another 16,3 that broke \ the other stable by pushing it off bricks


After all this is a buisness not a charity .
you can see damages below stabled bowed pushed forwards away from stable matting








 
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At the end of the day this is my home too if they don't like the contract they don't sign i wonder if the people saying don't pay would feel different if it were their home being destroyed like neighbors kids braking windows with footballs or reversing their car into your wall knocking it down
If a horse is that destructive as this one was we don't need it there are enough well mannered horses out there so not to have one like this.

As for insurance you can only get that if you are a registered livery yard with the council and if you are registered then the council put u in a different category for charges well extensive that's why many yards round here choose not to have yard insurance tho we have home insurance
 
At the end of the day this is my home too if they don't like the contract they don't sign i wonder if the people saying don't pay would feel different if it were their home being destroyed like neighbors kids braking windows with footballs or reversing their car into your wall knocking it down
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But it's also your business - and to that end you have to except that horses are by their nature destructive and there will always be repairs to be done with costs to be met with you. As HH says above, it's part of the livery service, i.e structures and fields will be maintained to ensure they are fit for use.

I would happily cough up a contribution towards damage caused by a continual destructive horse - but not for repairing sub standard structures and fencing.
 
As i said depends on the damages one has recently broken the wooden gate which i will replace but if the horse is downright destructive as this one was I don't want it on my yard .


so receiving £120 livery rent and in the first week paying 350 damages is ok is it?? I don't think so .
normal damages I have repaired
NON of my structures are sub standard the stable damaged never had a horse in 14 years and had nothing wrong with it.
they come they view the yard they sign the contract if they want

if the person is like the last one i don't want them on our yard is friendly and happy the liveries here are happy with the contract or they wouldn't sign.

the odd broke rail/ gate have always been replaced but major structure damage or liveries driving their horsebox into the wall i am not paying for they have all repaired or replaced it without hesitation

our yard has been running over 15 years
and i have been in horse world over 40 years i have seen people paying for "major damage" right back in the 70,s and 80,s so its not a new thing

at the end of the day if your forking out more money in repairs than your making from a livery you dont need it so its bye bye.
 
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so receiving £120 livery rent and in the first week paying 350 damages is ok is it?? I don't think so .
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No it's not - but them's the breaks. And a destructive livery can always be asked to leave.
 
amymay said:
No it's not - but them's the breaks. And a destructive livery can always be asked to leave.
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my last comment on this matter them is not the breaks maybe if you owned a yard you might think different.

1. you read the contract you happy you sign if not there's the door.
2. we state clearly the contract term,s done by solicitor


in the last 12 months :

we have spent £15000 on a new stable block roof

£ 5000 on re surfing the outdoor school


£8000 on clearing out washing down and re surfing the indoor school

big task

£1500 re-fencing round outdoor school

£10000 digging out and concreting the stable yard
these are just the big tasks

we do improvements all the time

If some snotty nosed &*(^ and her mum comes in with a destructive pony who causes stress upset to other owners and ponies, and cause allot of damage
we will NOT tolerate it period
then to find out the pony never been in stable before ( they lied) to us. We asked them to leave

also if some person cannot drive their lorry safely round the yard again they shouldn't be driving it they did how ever repair the damage
we give our liveries a good home for their horses with us living here and improving and giving them new facilities all the time spending a small fortune on grazing .
2 full jumping courses and more.
fencing\gates etc will be repair ( some owners bought the rails their choice) but major structure damage is down to the culprit.



Then a bad apple comes in be it human or horse then they WILL and have been asked to leave .

I have been in this business to long to tolerate loads problems .

we have taken two people to small claims over monies not paid and won both cases

so enough said I have said my piece.!!! matter closed!!
 
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If some snotty nosed &*(^ and her mum comes in with a destructive pony who causes stress upset to other owners and ponies, and cause allot of damage
we will NOT tolerate it period
then to find out the pony never been in stable before ( they lied) to us. We asked them to leave
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Which is perfectly reasonable.
 
irish_only said:
AS a livery yard owner I would be mortified if one of my breezeblock walls gave way like this, and I would be fixing it. I see my responsibilities as providing a safe environment for all. Don't pay.
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^^ This . Crikey the wall should be able to withstand a few kicks - it's a horse for goodness sake - they all kick out!
 
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