do horses ever lose their fear of abuse?

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Jericho

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Sorry in advance if this is a long one but I was hoping for some words of advice pretty please.

I have a 13yr old grey mare who is the best all rounder you can find, wonderful to hack, great in traffic, never does anything stupid eg, buck, rear, bolt. She loads, travels, clips, shoes brilliant. So why am I asking for advice, you may ask??!

Well, I have had her over a year now. I think over 6 months ago I asked a similar question about her aloofness and was reasssured by the answers many people gave. My problem is that she really honestly does not like humans, she has a slightly worried look in her eye constantly and any sharp movements from anyone she jumps and immediately tenses up, almost shaking with fear.

Her attitude to being caught / ridden / brushed is only one of resignation. She will turn away from you in the stable if you enter it. She will never come over for a pat at the fence even if you have food. When you turn her out she is off like a shot without a backward glance. She always will walk away given half the chance when you go to catch her. Sometimes she will stand still and I give her a treat but make a wrong movement and she's off. I can however potter around them in the field and go up to her lots if I dont have a headcollar. Anyway today was the final thing that really got to me.

We had been for a lovely ride this morning, just walk and trot on the roads very laid back and I turned her back out without her rug so she could have a roll and get some sun in her back as it was sunny. Well I went to catch her again and she charged off in panic because I tripped accidentally and rattled the headcollar. From experience I know that I will never catch her once she has been startled like that and I tread a fine line every time I do catch her not to make any quick movements. Needing to get the rug on her and being a bit stubborn I herded her in as I couldnt get within 10m of her. I was at this time a bit stressed and my body langauge was probably looking a bit agressive - fast walking, quick movements and a more exaperated moan than shouting at her. By the time she finally got into the small yard and I got a hand on her she was visibly twitching in fear recoiling away from me. Just to see what would happen I shook the head collar and raised my arms quickly as though I was going to hit her and she absolutely freaked. (NB I only did this because I need to understand whats going on in her mind and again I will say I have never ever hit this horse ever so it really hurts to think that she thinnks I will and that she only tolerates my company/ being ridden because she is scared of the consequences.

I definitely now think her aloofness, is not naughtiness its fear, she has obviosuly been really whacked with the headcollar and perhaps more in the past. Her do-anything-nature isnt because she is trusting, its because shes scared. And I hate her feeling like that so what can I do? After over a year where she has been at home out 24/7, has every need catered for and has a very easy hacking life, is only ever really looked after by me and has never suffered even as much as a smack from me because she never puts a hoof out of line.

She loves food and will wait whickering for her breakfast at the gate but thats just cupboard love.
She can be very sweet at shows and actively looks for me and seems to enjoy my company then but thats the only time. And she is amazing with my children - my 4 yr old can lead her like a little lamb and she will put her nose and breathe in their hair but she would never show that interest in me.


I so wish she could talk - I hate that some person has made her like this....So is there anything I can do to get her trust me / humans / like our company?? What have others done? What is my action plan??
 
Ed is 15 next year, despite kind consistant handling he still doesn't like me much nor does he revel in attention, but sometimes, just sometimes, I get the impression he trusts me. Which is all we can expect I guess, when they have been through so much.

Good luck with your girl, she sounds lovely.
 
mine was petrified of humans..I have had him for six years now and he is so much better. I dont think it ever goes away totally...just becomes less over time. it took me well over a year before he wouldnt be so scared and it is only prob in the last year that he has really chilled out so to speak. the only time it tends to resurface now is if he hears a man shouting, but even then he is much easier to reassure than previously. it all comes down to trust I think but it does take time, but it is time well spent and it is so lovely when they come to regard you as safe.
 
I've had 2 abused rescues in the past, one craved human affection, the other resented it.

You could try using things like carrot stretches to build your bond.

The other option which works with some horses is to allow them to come to you, horses are flight animals, and those who've been previously abused are always on the look out for an escape if they are unsure.

Hopefully time, patience and TLC will help heal the past hurts.
 
It takes an awful long time to gain their trust again after years of abuse.
I bought my first abused horse home and when I put my hand up to stroke him he would shoot to the back of the box in fear. Any sharp / quick movements terrified him and I had to re think my actions around him.

Gradually over time and patience he came good and although remained a spooky ride he was lovely. One of the things I think helped was that he was stabled at a riding school and when all the visitors passed by his box they'd say hello and I think he began to realise people could be rather nice.
 
My cob used to be scared of me,and you couldnt touch his back legs,I think someone was abusive to him. but with time,took about 14 months,finally he learnt to trust me.However my section A is not people friendly.Every now and then she will let me touch her-on her terms only tho. You cannot catch her,shes very wild really.Way I like it.
You could try to get her to trust you by spending a hour a day grooming her etc.She may come in time.
 
A friend has a little horse that's been hers now for about 3 years. He is still very, very shy and aloof - despite the most sympathetic handling. And very few other people can get near him.

As for what you can do - consistent, quiet and sympathetic handling means that one day she may come around - but of course she may not. Some simply don't.
 
Be immensley proud that she trusts you. I would think that if she has been abused, this alone is worth everything. My horse has never been badly treated, but is not a people person, if he comes to me it is to check out if there is food... sometimes for a scratch if he is itchy, but there have been times, for example when he has been unwell, when it is very obvious he trust me implicitly, and turns to me for help and comfort.

ETA - if she looks for you at shows etc, that is a good sign she DOES trust you, and needs reassurance from you!
 
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Be aware, too, that part of it might be her underlying personality. I'm not saying she doesn't have a basis for her fears but I've worked for may large breeders with herds of youngsters treated essentially the same and seen first hand that even with very consistent handling not all horses seem the same way. Just like people, some seem inherently more trusting and less affected by what goes on around them, others more fearful or likely to take permanent offence.

As you recognised, controlling your own behaviour is key and it's likely you may have to be "careful" forever. She's not doing it to bother you personally, she's just reacting to her own triggers. I know it's frustrating though!

Don't discount "cupboard love" if you need to get something done. You can't "force" horses to love you but you can retrain their reactions. If you can overlay her fear with a way of explaining to her that being caught is a beneficial thing (and that you're in control of the food :) ) then that will only help her stay in a positive frame of mind.

I work with one horse now who has VERY good reason for not wanting to be caught and quite frankly I never go out to catch her without something in my pocket. Years of being wary isn't going to just go away so I think ahead - that moment when she draws her head up and thinks "will I, won't I" is exactly the moment to be able to convince her to see things my way. At this point she's almost normal to catch but I don't forget she has all those memories still in there.

How much "personal time" do you spend with her, grooming etc. not on an agenda? It can help nervous horses to spend time with people without expectations so they're get out of the habit of always wondering what's going to happen next. If I have a young horse that's struggling I might even take it around with me, chatting with people, maybe even teaching, occasionally giving it a scratch and a chat or spend a little time with it in the stable, until it learns I'm a calming influence and a good herd leader.

All that said, some horses just don't "need" people. However, they rarely look stressed about it, they just don't mind much either way.
 
It's took about 3 years before my mare stopped throwing herself backwards in a panic if you so much as moved a hand near her. It happens only very occasionally now - first week I had her I put my hand forward to unbolt the door, she threw herself backwards hitting her head off the door frame splitting her poll wide open so that probably didn't help in gaining her trust for a while! catching is improving after 5 years, her previous owners and loaners ( an Equine college!) caught her by chasing her into the yard with a quad bike! Now she whickers and runs towards me but it has taken hours up hours of sitting in the field or following her until she chooses to be caught to get to this stage. Someone has really done her over at some point but I think we've got a pretty sold relationship now.
 
Agree with the others, some horses are just like that and it's not necessarily a sign the horse has been abused.

YO has had her horse since a foal and has never hit him on the head or anything like that, but he is petrified of you going near his ears, hates anyone near his head, hates being groomed, hates everything except being ridden basically! He has had a really nice upbringing - it's just his charcter.

My horse on the other hand is beaten every day and is still friendly ;)
 
My mare was a nervous wreck when i got her and quite shut down from people. she was terribly head shy too, now i can walk past and ruffle her forelock and she doesn't even flinch. She is confident with me because other than the odd tap on the neck if she is pratting sround when i am sorting her rug or something, she knows I would never hit her.
She accepts a few of my friends doing things like putting her leg wraps on or changing a rug.
She is brilliant now, she is only cuddly with me and only when it suits her. But she's not nervous.
There aren't many things now that i attribute to her past. She is pretty ok now. They have long memories so probably won't forget what happened, but I don't think it occurs to her that it would ever happen again.
It will take time but I am sure with sensitive and confident handling you will eventually see your mares true personality coming out and less of the nerves. A year is really no time at all.'
Just wait til you see little things changing about her personality, it will be so worth it.
So to answer the question, yeah i think they can lose their fear.

Jumpthemoon, the yo's horse, that sounds like a pain issue. get her to have his poll checked.
 
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jumpthemoon, your YO's horse, i'd get its atlas/axis checked - if this is 'out' it makes them behave exactly like that.
OP, I think you have to, as said above, NOT take it personally, and just keep on being nice.
I had a mare a little like that for years. Super to ride in every possible way, a very different story in the stable. Sometimes she'd get soppy and let her guard down, and then in the middle of a gentle cuddle she'd suddenly recall "it's a HUMAN" and go rigid with terror. Very weird.
Ooodles of tlc, basically. Or, if I dare suggest it, and if you're openminded, an animal communicator might not be a bad idea. I've used 1 who wasn't accurate and refunded in full, immediately, no question, and 2 who have been very accurate...
 
One of mine had a really bad start.....but he's so in need of affection he would get in your pocket if he could. he's very people friendly bless him.

The other one has not been cruelly mistreated by his owner, he just did not have a leader and was very anxious. This is getting better....he didn't want to be caught when I got him 4m ago....he ran over to me in the field the other day, which was nice. I spent time just spending time with him- no pressure, then doing non-ridden things. He is much better in the stable now- he doesnt fly to the back of it if I go in, I can actually pick his feet out whilst he muches at his haynet. He's not keen on his face/head being touched....I suspect that on his previous yard he was shouted at and hit for door-banging ( I know the yard very well, and the stable he was kept in.....he's one of many, shall we say:mad:) but slowly this is getting better also.

At least now your mare has you, and she has improved in the time you have had her....hopefully she will continue to get better. At least you care enough to care:)
 
Mine was like this, and still can be - catching her is iffy! She has always been quite sweet, very well mannered etc. But as you describe, very aloof and resigned. She really started to come out of herself 3-4 years ago though, and is now almost cheeky - she'll look in my pockets for a treat, and has even been known to barge me as we come out of the stable. It took over 10 years for her to get to this point, and she'll be 30 in January. Be patient, she'll get there :)
 
Hi all, thank you so much for all your replies. I know in my heart that its not me of course, sometimes its just hard because there is no logic behind her behaviour but then horses dont use logic!!!

So many of you have described similar traits in your horses that I guess she is always going to be a little like that with humans.

Kerilli - I think you have hit the nail on the head - she does let her guard down and then its argghh I forgot. I do genuinely think she has had the headcollar / leadrope or something swung at her - its around her body she is particular cautious of fast movements. And she isnt headshy particularly except if you go to hold just one ear - another indication I think that something has really scared her in the past. Its interesting you mention an animal communicator - I did have a reading done and it was fairly accurate in some ways in terms of her ridden behaviour but never alluded to anything strange about humans or her personality. I tempted to waste more money and try another one ;-)

On the plus side, I have gone out again today to poo pick with a big pocket of apple nibbles and spent some time with her just moving around her and getting her to come to me. Very interesting reading her behaviour, everytime she wasnt sure, she turned her face away. I felt we left it on a positive note. Thinking about it also she was much better in the summer when I was out and about in the fields with them much more. What with the weather I havent really spent much time with her so I guess there lies part of the answer and part of the solution.

It would be lovely to think that a few years down the line - she would think 'ahh theres that nice human who makes me feel secure and 'happy', I want to go and see her and see whats happening' rather than 'uh oh theres that human, this means work, something boring, horrible etc.'
 
Jericho, this could be my mare, I came to my wits end in August when she lost her headcollar & haven't been able to catch her since. Approaching with anything resembling a rope is one huge nono. I've tried all the 'nice tricks' suggested on here and some have worked once, but only once- I can see her thinking!!
We've sedalined and dormosedaned to no effect.

She will only tolerate about 5 seconds touching without turning away, nothing nasty, have done the retreat/withdraw thing which does mean she will stay by my side but thats it. She will invisibly lunge around happily, stop and lick & chew but will not approach.
It hurts, really hurts me to think she has no trust. I, too, have owned her just over 12 months.

She will go in the field shelter to a bucket feed but only stays in one place without running in and out if I crouch down, she will only approach me in the field if I crouch- hence I may need to borrow your 4 year old!!!!- or chop my legs off!!!!

She panics if shut in with a person.

I decided I needed to desensitise. I was getting nowhere by holding leadropes.
So hung ropes, headcollars, rugs etc from the field shelter rafters- poor girl walked straight through them and even stands eating with it all hanging round her and touching her - which proves to me it's humans which are her problem.

BUT and it is a big but- is it that she simply does not want to be caught? really does not want to do what she has, in the past , been programmed to do?

Like your mare, she is lovely to ride, has been very well schooled, is a real lady in the manners department and, with a headcollar on, is easy to catch as long as you don't approach with a visible leadrope or make any sudden movements.
From the posts following yours it seems it may get a little better for them to cope with.

I often think that she mustn't speak to our other two mares who she lives with, as they would have told her we are gentle , caring owners, and even that it's actually quite nice having a rug on in all this cold snowy weather .

Sorry this got rather long, but suppose I wanted to prove that it isn't YOU, it's what has happened previously.
I know where my mare was and what she did up to the 12 months before I bought her, but nothing about the immediate 12months before- I got the impression sales and dealers-but could be very wrong.

Off now on another bonding session- luckily I have lots of patience and no need to catch and cuddle- except that it would be very nice!
 
Lucy had a terrable start in life she was abused and neglected by her first two owners. :( By the time she came to me she was so afraid of humans she would actualy attack anyone who went anywhere near her. It was 6 months before I could catch her without getting hurt. Then I spent another 6 months just getting her in, grooming her, giving her a feed and putting her back out. Once I was finaly able to tack her up I spent a whole year falling off her atleast once every single day. Everyone told me to give up on her and I should just have her shot and they all laughed at me when I said she was going to be the best pony ever.

Guess what she turned out to be my pony of a life time.
Our story is here if you havn't already read it.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=373541

I don't think Lucy ever truly forgot what happened as she didn't realy trust people she didn't know but she lurnt to trust me. If I was there it was always ok. :)
Hopefuly you will be able to build a bond with your mare like i did with Lucy but it will take time so be patiant and let it all happen at her pace. Good luck xx
 
Try clicker training with her. It's a fabulous tool for making horses want to spend time with a human. It one of the very few methods that allow the horse to CHOOSE to come and work with a human, with no pressure or force required (easily does without even a head collar on) and all rewards.

There's some extreme schools of clicker where that's ALL you're allowed to do but used with common sense it can be a really useful too, plus is really good at teaching the horse something new - they 'get' it much quicker and remember it far better than with traditional methods.

I've used it in varying amounts will all my horses and they all enjoyed it immensly (one got too excited about the 'reward' side to concentrate properly though!). They would happily come over and spend hours loose in the field playing games. Some of the things I taught them were useful, others just for fun. ALL of them were learned quickly and depsite rarely doing them now they still know the signal and rush to do as asked,

You wouldnt need to use it to actually teach your mare something new (plenty of things you could though, like target training), it would be much more about the positive and enjoyable time spent working with her.
 
Hi Jericho,

Your mare is very lucky to have you! I agree with you that it sounds like she's had a bad time of it in the past. If she were mine, I would give her some time off riding. Spend good positive times with her, like you did today, where you're not asking anything of her, but if she chooses to be with you, reward her. The time you would normally spend riding, just spend it hanging out with her. How much time she has off will depend on her, but you will know because you will start see changes in her attitude toward you. When the times right, I would then start her again as if she were a baby, and try to create positive associations with all the equipment and environments associated with being ridden on the ground first.

Good luck with her and trust your instincts :)
 
Happy hogswatch/Angua2 & i have both had the pleasure of SWA as our little lad, he is now with me to the end. he is inherently nervy & so many things take twice as long as normal because of the way around his fears. he now lets me put his rugs on normally & not having to fold them into a small square & unfold it on him. catching is very much on his terms still but he is getting there.
i have had mine 2 years now & Angua2 had him for 2 years before me & between us he is coming around, i dont think he will ever be totally fear free but i hope i can make it as fear free as he will let me, dont give upon her.
 
My mare was very aloof when I got her. She didn't enjoy interacting with humans, didn't enjoy being ridden, had a "glazed" look about her all the time. It has taken 6 years to get her to trust me. She is still not a "cuddly" pony, not like my other boy, and is still quite nervous with strangers around etc (for example, my mum had to put her away one day last week when I was called back into work - she let my mum catch her in the field, but then wouldn't let her approach in the stable so mum couldn't take her headcollar off :( ). She is nervous in new surrounding (which will be interesting when I move back to UK in July next year!!! :eek: ) but with time and patience she will be ok. It has taken a long time and lots of patience but she now enjoys our rides and has her love for life back :)

Don't worry, I'm sure your mare will be ok. Just give her time to let her believe she can truly trust you and although she will never forget, you will have a special bond :)
 
If she's funny about one ear she's been twiched on it. My mare was dangerous when I got her, she'd lunge at you in stable showing her teeth, stable competely trashed by next day.Hated teenage girls wearing baseball caps,would try and attack them, 7 years on, she still has her problems mostly teeth( finally got done),vets (she's starting to really chill out) farrier have had to muzzle her, but again starting to chill out and can now and then be a real madam in the stable, she has been badly abused in the past, she also suffers badly from sweet-itch. In the years I've owned her she has kicked me only once and that wasn't intentuale. I give her space on the things I know will upset her, so I trust her and she trust me.
 
We had a pony who was very badly abused in a previous life and was extremly weary of people, if you walked past his stable he would shoot to the corner shivering and catching him in the field was nearly impossible. But riding him he was a dream wouldn't put a foot out of line he was just so scared of people on teh ground.

We had him about 3 weeks and he got a puncture wound and was on box rest for 2 weeks and these two weeks were the best thing that had ever happened to us. He was trusting in me afterwards I could get the headcollar on him he wouldn't shiver in the corner. I would literally just sit in his stable reading a book until he got used to me then I would spend a couple of hours grooming him looking for his favourite spots.

He was always funny about his ears being touched but apart from that he was never nervous with a person again. When we sold him and we dropped him off we put him in his new stable and he fell asleep with his head over his stable door.

I guess what I'm trying to say it is possible but it takes a long time. Just sit with her for ages until she is just so fine with your presence and then every now and again move. Spend time with her (I know this isn't easy due to jobs etc) but spend hours grooming and making a fuss of her so she knows you are a nice person.

Once she is secure in her relationship with you try getting her used to other people so she' becomes more trusting in other people aswell. I also find grazing in hand helps relationships build aswell and talk to her all the time just ramble on to her (even you look ridiculous) get her used to your voice.

Best of luck and I hope it all turns out well x
 
My boy was very nervy when I first got him, if I went into his stable to muck out while he was in there he would try & hide in the corner at the site of me entering with a shovel/fork/broom in my hand & he enjoyed being lunged but again I couldn't have a lunging whip in my hand or he'd be jumping all over the place, also my mum has a real diva of a mare & if we hacked out & my mum was using a crop he would go to pieces next to her..he also had that 'glazed' look, he was really well behaved but a nerve bag I sort of felt that he looked like he'd had his personality beaten out of him & that he'd do whatever you wanted for an easy life...a year on & I've got the cheeky git, who's full of life, a real cheeky gentleman. I first started by just grooming him every night & little by little he really came round, he soon began grooming me back, licking my face & pulling my clothes when I put his rug on, he soon realised that a broom/fork wasn't used for a beating nor is a whip. He was later on box rest for quite a long time after an op & he was hell, a total stress head, but we got through it our bond really grew through them 4-5 months..& he now trusts me 100% with anything even when he's unsure of something.. hope all goes well x
 
I have a wee mare who has a rough life before I had her ( I wrote my first thread earlier in the week after she had a bad accident with her hay net) I have had her 4 years now and I think we have created a reasonable bond and I would go as far to say that she trusts me and we have cuddles and she does offer me affection and asks to mutual groom when she is being brushed. But, and it's a big but, I have to be very very careful around her and very quiet in her handling. It doesn't take a lot for her to panic and retreat back in to her shell or totally loose the plot. Getting her head collar on can sometimes take ages if something has upset her. After she knocked herself out earlier in the week, and after the vet visit we have gone backwards rather... Sigh
But, I spent quite a bit of time doing ground work with her, very simple tasks like asking her to follow me and stop when I stop, trot when I jog, stepping backwards..... Giving loads of praise when she does what I ask. Plus we have gone for lots of walks inhand. Whenever she sees anything that is scary we take time to stop and work it out. Lots and lots of praise when she settles. All of which helps. Good luck with your little horse it sounds like she is very lucky to have you.
 
again thank you for all your words of wisdom, It would be so nice if we really could know what has happened in their pasts wouldnt it?

Its the resignation that gets me the most, I am not asking for hugs and kisses or to show any human qualities such as love, just that she enjoys life a little more particularly around humans. She is sooooo well behaved - you can literally do anything with her. I have never seen her put her ears back or show even the smallest amount of agression or even dominance to a human. She just wouldnt step in front of you, pull you on the lead, put her nose in a feedbucket/haynet until you step away. She never seems upset or stressed with new surroundings, doesnt really seem to bond with other horses - have rarely seen her scratch with another horse and doesnt show any emotion when I scratch her - its almost like she has no personality or had her personality removed. The only time I see her show anything is, like I said, when we are at show and she seems quite affectionate and thats what makes me feel almost sorry for her and want to try and get her personality / love of life out a bit more because I know it is in there. The only other time she shows any 'emotion' is when she sees me hitching up the trailer or I bath her and then she starts to poo a lot - obviously has some issues about going to events, not that you would know it when she was there as stands quietly even rather fed up looking, never gets seperation anxiety and gets on with her job. I know in her past she did a lot of eventing and was at a professional event yard so maybe she has just been conditioned to be like that and had some very ..ahem... no nonense firm handling?

Dont get me wrong, its very nice to have such a well mannered horse who I just know will behave what ever the situation. I have had some horses who have had huge 'personalities' who have been a right pain in the whatsit! Maybe I will try some clicker work or more ground work and perhaps a few more fun times - a good old gallop along a beach somewhere and let her have more fun (we hack out rather sedately once a week, maybe with the odd canter here and there and a lesson once a month - no other schooling, and the odd dressage event), maybe do a bit more jumping etc. She isnt a plod / lazy by any means and is a very responsive ride and she seems to enjoy hacking and has a good old kick and buck in the field so I dont think its anything to do with her health. She has no real undue stress or hardship or hard work in her life at all now.

And dont worry I have no intention of giving up on her - she is with me for as long as I can afford to have a horse and even then I would loan her out because I just would not want her to end up in the wrong hands.
 
It sounds like she is very shut down. She will knuckle down and "behave" perhaps because she has learnt that this is the easiest thing to do ( better to do than get punished for not), but not nessecarily her happiest choice. Take the pressure off her, spend time just being her friend. She will appreciate it, I'm sure :)
 
My mare seems to have had a bad past with a mistrust of humans, and it's taken 6 months for me to be able pick out her back feet. When we got her you couldn't even get near her back area let alone handle the legs.

It's taken two very important things: hard work and patience! But the results are very rewarding!
 
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