Do I have grounds for a refund?

Flyermc

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I wonder if the fact that the seller said that they should have 'prepared' the pony for measurement would be taken as knowledge that they knew the pony was overheight and would measure out under normal circumstances. If this is in writing, it could be quite damning.

ETA however in this case I would have asked the vet to measure at the vetting. My vet always carries his measuring stick as I know from when we disagreed on how tall my last horse was and he went and got it to prove he was right - he wasn't.
i think its really said that the seller is being made out to negligent over a 'prepared' comment that could mean anything. im sure there are awful owners out there, but the previous owner could have meant anything from just taking the shoes off or making sure the pony is relaxed. im sure a good vet is not going to measure a pony thats have most of its feet removed or showns evidence of dehydration.

The OP doesnt even mention if she's asked to return the pony and this has been refused.
 

ycbm

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She knows that it's over the limit for taking a small claim to court, though, which suggests the dealer is telling her to take a hike?
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Goldenstar

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Genuine question as I’ve never been in the position of buying something with a LHC- would the vet not take a measuring stick at the vetting? I know that wouldn’t be the same as a certificate, but it would influence whether it was fit for the intended purpose....assuming that the max permissible height is part of its suitability for the job?
Vets don’t check height at vettings .
OP needs to get equine lawyer on the case if searches on here there is a thread with names .
People really must look after themselves .
OP should have refused to buy without a life cert .
I think Op may a case if it was a dealer as you can return a item ( horse ) if it’s not fit for purpose .
 

FlyingCircus

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Read the posts yesterday and now coming with new perspective...

What if you sold a pony, put the height in the ad, gave evidence of measurements previously, allowed the buyer to vet said pony. Vet clearly passed it as fit for purpose. Didn't get asked at any point to put a stick to said pony. £££ was sent over from new buyer, pony goes on its way.

Then buyer comes back with pony is too tall?! It's not exactly something that changes overnight. There have been numerous opportunities for someone to put a stick on it. Seller could have been requested for a pic, buyer could have done it themselves, could have asked vet...
 

MissTyc

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From what OP has described of the seller, the courts would likely classify her as a professional, so highly likely to side with the buyer if it came down to it.
Def one for an equine solicitor if the seller isn't responding to the request for a refund.
 

Tiddlypom

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A vetting vet would not have helped because vets don’t enter into height issues because of brouhahas like this .
People have to protect themselves and never assume something as important as this is going to be ok .
I would have expected an experienced equine vet to be familiar with the JMB system, and to have advised the prospective purchaser that a 2019 height cert on a 6yo was no longer valid, and that a new height cert was required to be sure that pony still measures in.

This is presuming that the vet was fully briefed on the competitive plans for the pony, whuch they should have been prior to the vetting.
 

Melody Grey

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I would have expected an experienced equine vet to be familiar with the JMB system, and to have advised the prospective purchaser that a 2019 height cert on a 6yo was no longer valid, and that a new height cert was required to be sure that pony still measures in.

This is presuming that the vet was fully briefed on the competitive plans for the pony, whuch they should have been prior to the vetting.
This exactly- only better explained by yourself @Tiddlypom

the height is fundamental to the horses suitability to the job.
 

teddypops

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I would have expected an experienced equine vet to be familiar with the JMB system, and to have advised the prospective purchaser that a 2019 height cert on a 6yo was no longer valid, and that a new height cert was required to be sure that pony still measures in.

This is presuming that the vet was fully briefed on the competitive plans for the pony, whuch they should have been prior to the vetting.
The form that is filled in when booking the vetting does include questions about height, intended use and any points to query. If the horse was noticeably bigger, the vet should have pointed it out.
 

AnShanDan

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The OP should obv. have insisted on a final JMB measurement before the sale took place, but the way the market is, she would then prob. have lost the pony to someone else. The pony's 2019 measurement was 146.8, so not borderline. I can see why they assumed it would measure in. Hindsight is great.
Also, it's not a question of putting a stick on it. Measuring accurately takes time and the right set up. People claim their horses are x height all the time when in fact, if they were measured properly, they'd be a few cm smaller.
 

Goldenstar

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I would have expected an experienced equine vet to be familiar with the JMB system, and to have advised the prospective purchaser that a 2019 height cert on a 6yo was no longer valid, and that a new height cert was required to be sure that pony still measures in.

This is presuming that the vet was fully briefed on the competitive plans for the pony, whuch they should have been prior to the vetting.
Well they may have if they met the owner but it would outside the scope of the vetting . Height is not part of a vetting and OP will have no case against the vet.
Only specially qualified vets do measuring and its done at facility that’s approved.

If OP can return the pony it will be under the not fit for purpose terms and her case is against the dealer .
 

ycbm

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If the purpose was to jump in 148 classes and the pony will not measure in, then it's not fit for purpose and surely it can be returned to a dealer, but not a private seller?

There is a case a few years back where a horse was returned to a dealer up this way, Two Mills I think, because it was too tall for a
the buyer's trailer and measured 17.2 not 17 hands, as I recollect. I was stunned, but the buyer won that one.
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Sandales

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Sellers are going to end up being reluctant to put heights on adverts after cases like this for fear of legal action. Like has already been said measuring a pony takes time to do it properly not just a case of putting a stick on it.

Wonder if the height was given on the advert or anywhere in writing.
 

VRIN

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If its a dealer then you should have no problem returning as its not fir for purpose.
 

Melody Grey

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Sellers are going to end up being reluctant to put heights on adverts after cases like this for fear of legal action. Like has already been said measuring a pony takes time to do it properly not just a case of putting a stick on it.

Wonder if the height was given on the advert or anywhere in writing.
I’m seeing a lot of dealers advertising with videos but no description text at the moment. The sceptic in me wonders whether it’s so they’re not holding themselves to anything about it.
 

Red-1

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Sellers are going to end up being reluctant to put heights on adverts after cases like this for fear of legal action. Like has already been said measuring a pony takes time to do it properly not just a case of putting a stick on it.

Wonder if the height was given on the advert or anywhere in writing.
The word approx. would cover that though.
 

Lexie01

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I would imagine so. I thought they had introduced random spot measuring? If so and a pony needs prep to measure in then its not fit for purpose surely?
When I went back to the previous owner about the measurement I expected her to say that the pony must have had a growth spurt or something. But she didn't - just said (in writing) that I couldn't have prepared her for the measurement. I asked her to clarify what she meant by this as I had removed shoes, trimmed feet and took her to the vets (10 minute drive). This is when she said that the farrier obviously didn't trim enough off feet and that I should exercise before measuring?? This makes me think that she has done this previously and that is why the pony measured under.
 

Lexie01

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I wonder if the fact that the seller said that they should have 'prepared' the pony for measurement would be taken as knowledge that they knew the pony was overheight and would measure out under normal circumstances. If this is in writing, it could be quite damning.

ETA however in this case I would have asked the vet to measure at the vetting. My vet always carries his measuring stick as I know from when we disagreed on how tall my last horse was and he went and got it to prove he was right - he wasn't.
Yes I do have it in writing - I have passed it on. to JMB.
But you are right - I could kick myself for not asking the vet to check. I relied on the 2 previous measurements being accurate.
 

ycbm

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Yes I do have it in writing - I have passed it on. to JMB.
But you are right - I could kick myself for not asking the vet to check. I relied on the 2 previous measurements being accurate.

They may well have been accurate. I don't know if you know (ignore me if you do) but horses have no shoulder joint, their front legs are attached to their bodies only by masses of soft tissue. That means that as they muscle wnd tone up with age, the withers can rise by significant amounts and the pony can "grow" even though the bones aren't any longer. I've had a cob grow at least 2.5cm after 6 years old.
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Lexie01

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Height always seems very objective in adverts unless they have a LHC I would take the advertised height as an estimated height not an actual measured certified height. If height very important then I would be taking a measuring stick at viewing especially if the pony looked big on the videos. It won't give you JMB height but it measures 15.2 on the stick it is probably not going to measure in a 148 even without shoes.

I expect the pony has grown since it was 6. There is a reason that LHC are not awarded until the pony is over 7 and that is because they can continue to grow up to that age. If the hooves were severely trimmed and perhaps the pony freshly clipped so less hair on the wither it might have squeezed in at the original measuring and perhaps then grown a couple of cm.

I think to get a refund you have to prove that the seller knew the pony was over-height and would not measure in, which is probably going to be hard to do.

I have a native pony and it was important that he would measure in, I got him at 5, 13 years ago and I am pretty sure the vet measured him at the vetting. Advertised as 14.1 but he looks tiny compared to others in his class, he is a forester and the Connie's look huge in comparison. He looks so small that my non horsey mum who came to show to see him asked why he was not in the small breeds class. My friend who has a 143 Connie said she thinks my forester would measure in at 13.1, I measured him on a stick and he is indeed 14.1 in his shoes.
It is difficult to judge height in some ponies. My other 148 pony I was convinced would never measure in - we decided to affiliate her after owning her for a few years so height hadn't been that important. She was only 146.5 - yet looked massive. The new pony is a little 'odd'. She literally has the face of a horse, a broad body but short legs.
 

Lexie01

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Exercising a pony beforehand so that they are calm and relaxed for the measuring, and the farrier closely trimming (but not butchering) the feet are standard practice.

The JMB advice is to prepare the pony well beforehand for the measurement.
I have read this as well but the mares feet were perfectly trimmed according to the vet. If the pony is very relaxed (she is the most chilled pony I have literally ever some across) why would I need to exercise her? This is where I struggle. I understand if you have a very wired pony it makes sense - to relax them a little but I can think of no reason why I would have needed to exercise in this case. Other than to knacker her out a bit??
 
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