Do riders undervalue training?

[Ample Prosecco]

Obviously a huge generalisation but….

A few weeks ago an opportunity to train with Jonty Evans at Arclid Hall came up. I was so excited I emailed, left a voicemail and messaged in FB. Thinking places would disappear instantly. £50 and they don’t have enough to run at the moment.

A friend is running a dressage clinic with an Olympian. £70 for private lessons and that hasn’t filled either.

In what other sport can you have a lessons with Olympians for that kind of money?

Or maybe ‘big name’ trainers just don’t add much value compared to trainers who know you and your horse well. Though I’ve found those one offs with top riders brilliant, personally. Especially Gemma Tattersall and Nicola Wilson. They see things in your horse with such a keen eye! I’ll be gutted if the Jonty Evans clinic is cancelled.

Of course people are feeling the pinch at the moment so maybe it would be different in most years?

 

[sbloom]

It's definitely part financial at the moment, I think we're all seeing it, equally we all know the discussions over what happens at one-off clinics, and plenty of advice on here to not rely on them to help progress. After all, the whole Mark Todd thing...

Overall yes, riders do undervalue training. The number that seem to be using their limited funds only for competing at the moment instead of taking stock and coming out even better late this season or even next season after a ton of training is a shame.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

What Mark Todd thing?

I love my regular lessons but those one offs are fab too. (With one notable exception! Who I won’t name but he was a total ar£E. Never again

 

[sbloom]

Todd disciplinary case adjourned

Sir Mark Todd's disciplinary case after a video showed him hitting a horse with a tree branch is adjourned.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think there is so much pressure on the trainer and the rider to achieve something in a very short period that it can as easily go wrong as it can offer a breakthrough, though clearly the latter is always possible.

 

[Roxylola]

I've had one offs with big names but honestly I get more from the people I train with regularly so I don't really bother now. Perhaps if it was someone I really admired. Generally though I try and keep more frequent with regulars.
Often these need time off work as well which is another factor. At my previous job I generally needed upwards of 3 months notice to book time off, and sometimes then I might request but not find out until a couple of weeks before if I could have it at all

 

[TheMule]

I think people are wary of clinics when they have a good system with their home trainer. I do go to some clinics, but they're generally people who I've trained with before or will be able to again, I don’t think anyone could add much in on a one-off session where I don’t know them and they don’t know me, especially in a group situation.
Actually, ironically, Mark Todd taught me the best one-off lesson I've ever had.

 

[scats]

I’m not sure one off training sessions are particularly useful for people. The person doesn’t know your horse, your history etc. I’d far rather have regular lessons with a none-name than a one off with an Olympian or pro.

 

[gallopingby]

Sometimes the ‘big names’ are dipping a toe in the training agenda and whilst happy to share their knowledge / successful tips might be of more use doing a training demo with their horses than trying to solve problems as a o e off. Also some are better ‘doers’ than ‘teachers’.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think at the minute it’s the money it is discretionary spending I think a lot of people have reduced competing as well .
I used to do one of clinics because I enjoyed a new set of ideas and new ideas it was fun sometimes of course they are a big fat waste of money .
Some big names are great trainers, some can do it but not impart that knowledge in a easily transferable form, some simply just can’t get the psychology of the amateur who just loves horses .
So I always looked at them as a fun adventure and if I had needed to rein in spending they probaly would have been the first thing to go.

 

[Skib]

People have not got so much spare money at the moment, The cost of essentials like food and clothing has gone up.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Yes that all makes sense. Still hope it goes ahead though!

 

[Red-1]

I have had some lessons with famous riders, and they can be great but I prefer to work with a regular trainer.

I was lucky for a while to have Jane Bartle Wilson as my regular trainer. The facilities at their place are fantastic and she was very helpful. Not cheap but she would pack loads into a lesson. For a while I also had Helen Bell quite regularly at her place, and the place before. I'm talking once a month for many months. Regular lessons are the way to go, I think.

I did have fab one off lessons with Ian Stark and Lucinda Green, also Geoff Billington. I am, however always more cautious with a one off lesson as they may be able to read my horse, but they don't necessarily immediately know where I am as a rider.

At the moment I only have BH for lessons and he is not the quintessential event horse, being a little heavier than ideal for that. Also, I have seen things go very wrong on one off lessons, and then the trainer is gone so can't work on damage repair! It is for those reasons I haven't booked a famous person lesson for years. I do have enough £££ ATM, if I thought it worthwhile.

 

[Roxylola]

I also think mid season I'd be less likely to "risk" a new trainer or one off. Over winter maybe, especially for eventing training - you'd likely be on a surface for that whereas now we've got ground (and the impact of that) to consider, the fact I might be competing coming up and don't want to skittle that with an upset from going to a new trainer (possibly at a new venue)
Basically the risks would outweigh the gain imo at the moment.

 

[humblepie]

All of the above - I must admit I had very few lessons when I was show jumping, as it was compete or have lessons and I preferred to compete. My horse had a fairly unusual style (think old fashioned 14.2 JA pony, point and fire) but it worked for us. I did do a three day clinic with Dick Stillwell who was amazing and couldn't have cared less than I was very basic compared to the others. I did another clinic with a top show jumper who wasn't interested unless your horse was of a certain type and you were aiming for the Olympics (slight exaggeration but you know what I mean). I went through a period with current horse of having a lot of lessons with regular trainer and if I had one off site it would have been test riding type of thing. I do feel that the danger with well know riders is that they may not necessarily be able to teach or get over what they themselves feel or do.

 

[PSD]

I do think cost and affordability is massively the issue. I’d love to be able to attend clinics regularly or have regular lessons, but I simply cannot afford to at the minute. I would be less inclined to have a one off lesson or attend a one off clinic with a higher level professional for the reasons above. On the other hand I know people who have done so and it’s good to have a fresh set of eyes look over your and your horse. But less people are able to afford competing, shows are hardly the bustling places they used to be so I’m assuming this is having a ripple affect on everything that surrounds showing and competing.

 

[MagicMelon]

I dont think a top level rider equals necessarily equals good training. Ive had training with some "top" people in eventing and SJ, while one I can think of was great, another very well known guy was pretty rubbish. He seemed to prefer standing around drinking tea and eating his bacon roll than actually watching us and barely said anything constructive! I was so disappointed as it wasnt a cheap lesson. Its put me off now and I'll stick to my regular "cheap" trainers who I know, only considering an expensive lesson if Ive heard lots of raving reviews about that person.

Cost is everything just now. I cant afford pricey lessons, I can barely afford to compete. As I only have horses to compete, the competitions generally come first.

 

[Squeak]

For me, I know if I have a lesson with my regular trainers I will get something out of it and it will be useful, with a top level rider that's a complete gamble. The lessons are usually far more expensive too so unless I was at a point I thought it would be useful to have a fresh set of eyes or needed the outing or it was someone that I'd been really wanting a lesson with or something, then I wouldn't do it.

 

[RachelFerd]

I'm willing to go to a 'big name' but generally only if there's a likelihood that I'd be able to go back to them in the future If I found the lesson particularly valuable.

I do think we're incredibly lucky in horse sports to be able to access really great training even when we're not competing at the top levels ourselves. I do sometimes however question whether the top guys really have the right toolkit to help people with some of the more fundamental issues - confidence, training the less than athletic horse, basic rider position and security etc. I think those that have come up through the BHS system and hold the FBHS or BHSI do tend to be great whatever. But some of the top names without quals are less likely to have developed that more comprehensive toolkit to deal with the types of issues/problems that they themselves haven't ever faced.

That said, I do kind of respect the top pros/trainers that just put a bar at saying that they teach jumping at 1m10+ and they're not the right person to teach you to jump an 80 course. Which is clear on everyone at least!

 

[Nicnac]

I think it's financial. Look at the number of events that have cancelled as people haven't planned to enter until the last minute.

I also think a mixture of regular and once-off trainers are useful. Sometimes a person who has been there can give great tips. Jonty is good.

 

[nikkimariet]

Cost and availability. I don’t tend to flit about much (but I’d give my left arm for 5 minutes with Carl!), my trainer is 2+ hours away. The lessons are very intense so I don’t need to go too often plus I have the benefit of having got to this level before so I gave a reasonable feel of what I’m looking for. My brain would explode if I went every week.

I’d love to go a little more often ofc but whilst I see the training as extremely good value, fuel comes into it and it’s a long run by yourself too. I fit it in around my own life and competing plus my trainers life and competing also.

 

[tda]

I have not had a lesson for years, but I'm a hacker not a competer.
I think, like others have said sometimes the pro's are not the best teachers. I once watched a clinic with Geoff Billington and was very underwhelmed.
I also once watched my trainer have a lesson with her dressage trainer and was pleased to recognise some of the things being said were the same as she was teaching me.
I also can t afford it at the moment either

 

[marmalade76]

Cost and availability. I don’t tend to flit about much (but I’d give my left arm for 5 minutes with Carl!), my trainer is 2+ hours away. The lessons are very intense so I don’t need to go too often plus I have the benefit of having got to this level before so I gave a reasonable feel of what I’m looking for. My brain would explode if I went every week.

I’d love to go a little more often ofc but whilst I see the training as extremely good value, fuel comes into it and it’s a long run by yourself too. I fit it in around my own life and competing plus my trainers life and competing also.

Why don't you ask him? My YO's husband did, asked Carl for some lessons for her and he agreed. Was a fair few years ago now but she still talks about it regularly.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Why don't you ask him? My YO's husband did, asked Carl for some lessons for her and he agreed. Was a fair few years ago now but she still talks about it regularly.

I agree enquire my old trainer had a few lessons with him and Charlotte and got alot from it he said they were both really nice, he also ended up riding one of Charlotte's mums horses for a while because of it.

Definitely worth asking.

 

[ycbm]

I also once watched my trainer have a lesson with her dressage trainer and was pleased to recognise some of the things being said were the same as she was teaching me.

This is a good point. If you train with someone who trains with someone famous that you admire, then you are likely to get at least some of the training you would get if you paid for the big name.

 

[ycbm]

Regarding Jonty specifically, and the lack of take up for the clinic at Arclid at a low cost for an Olympian - I would, I think, find it disturbing to train with someone who is disabled as a direct result of the activity which he is training me to do. It's psychologically a bit of a nightmare, that one.
.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Nicola Wilson seems hugely popular - and her injuries are more immediately apparent. But then she was a popular teacher before so perhaps her reputation as an inspiring coach is helping?

Not sure if Jonty taught much before. Many seem too though. Not sure many can survive without the additional income.

 

[oldie48]

When I had my own horse I liked to have lessons with "names" if I knew I could sit and watch other lessons, so camps or overnight sessions were much more attractive than a single lesson. I've learned so much from watching others have a lesson and have found we all tend to have the same issues regardless of our horse or level. Good trainers never seem to mind having someone watch them teaching and anyone who competes is used to having others around when they are riding. However, if I was sort of cash I'd spend it on my regular trainer. Although I've focused on dressage in recent years there was a time I jumped and went xc (not at any height though) and I still learned so much from being in a group also gave me a well needed kick up the a..... so I rose above my natural fear. AE I hope your clinic goes ahead.

 

[Jango]

I've found training with people who are fantastic amateurs, with normal jobs too a lot more beneficial than big names. They have to ride at 8pm when it's pissing down, get by without help on the ground etc. They care about all their clients (not just the rich ones with fancy horses!).

I remember having a lesson with someone who trains with Stephen Clarke at my stables. She said "you'll simply have to go and train with Stephen, he's at xx on Tuesday and has a rare space". For me at the time this was completely impossible, can't get time off work short notice, could only afford to hire a box once per month to compete. 1x single 45 mins stephen clarke lesson would have paid for 2x lessons and one competition. When I explained this she wasn't so interested in me any more and focused her efforts on the people with more money/more time to commit!

Also I think modern life is so busy these days people just want to enjoy their horses. Competition entries are down loads too, however all the fun rides round here are very busy!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Jango, I think that I may have had lessons with that same person! She went on and on about how Stephen Clarke would love my horse, she'd put a word in for me to get a session with him, blah blah, but I just wasn't interested.

I admire him hugely, of course, but it would have been both very expensive and a long way to travel. Not for me.

I've long stopped using her. Dressage writing for her was the last straw .

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think I must have been quite lucky with who I have had lessons from then, as I have found them brilliant. Gemma was hugely instrumental in giving me the confidence to go and event Amber. I went to Nicola once a year and she saw things I could tweak that made a massive difference to balance and rideability.

I also had a lesson with Dag Albert which was great too. He focused on improving technique over skinnies, angles combinations and bending lines which helped a lot with riding courses.

I have had plenty of BHS lessons with fairly senior people (BHSI, Stage 5) and none have come close. The lessons felt quite formulaic. As if they had a plan in advance which they then just followed. Whereas Gemma and Nicola looked at the horse and targeted very specific issues.