Do these growth plates look swollen?

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caitlin95uk

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Thor was diagnosed with panosteitis without x-ray, vet was just quite sure what it is. However, I'm starting to think it is something else. To me his growth plates always look so big, like big knobbly-knee's. Vet didn't notice enough to point them out but this was a while ago now. He's 8 months and has had an intermittent limp for a while in both front legs. What do you think? Oh also ignore how toes-out he seems on the one photo, it was just an awkward angle as he was walking towards me.





 
What breed of dog is Thor? What would trouble me would be the disproportion between the foot and pasterns and the leg above the knuckle of the joint. It could well be the pics which though clear, could be out of proportion, if that makes sense.

Any chance of a 'posed' and clear side on shot of the dog in it's entirety and with him standing square?

edit: Intermittent lameness in a pup of this age can all so easily be a growth related problem, as you seem to think, and you're right to be concerned.

Alec.

As a PS, what's Panosteitis?

Sorry, another observation, it's difficult to see how tall the dog is, but looking at the front to hind leg spacings, it would seem that he'd be quite tall. If he stands at about 26" (a guess!) at the shoulder, his pasterns would seem to be surprisingly short, again though, possibly the pic.
 
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Thank you, Alec.
I've tried my best to get a side on photo, but it's very very difficult with an excitable puppy. The original photos do make it look disproportionate, his pasterns are not as thin as they look in that photo. In these photos I think he looks a lot more proportionate. His growth plates are often very warm.





Panosteitis is a sort of growing condition, self-limiting and a pain in the long bones (similar to growing pains) is how the vet explained it to me.

I have no idea how tall he is, but I would say he is quite close to 26inches.
 
caitlin95uk said:
Oh whoops, he is also a golden retriever.
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Thanks, got that with the opening pic! I've googled Panosteitis and it's pain caused by inflammation of the longer bones in legs, so it says. The name isn't a diagnosis just a new name for growing-pains just as in horses, colic is guts ache! Growing pains should NEVER be ignored. Are his front feet permanently at 10-to-2 when he's at rest? Is he more comfortable on a carpeted floor surface?

It's near impossible to be certain of anything from just a pic. The only opinions of worth will be given watching him as he moves, but that may be asking a bit much! There are though a few observations which may be of help. For a pup of only 8 months, it would seem to me that he's carrying quite a bit of excess weight. Again, his pasterns are a bit short but it isn't overly marked. There is most probably some 'disconnection' between his pasterns and the knuckle itself. All of this leads to the question of (again another generic term) OCD, and that's a flaking of the developing and growing major and weight supporting bones.

These growing related problems can be genetic and they can also be brought on by too high a protein intake. Sometimes foals will show signs of possible and impending OCD just as pups do. With horses (foals) the advice is always to cut back on protein. I'm NOT a vet but I've bred and reared a dog or two, and in your shoes, I'd now cut his feeds down to once a day, starting tomorrow. I would source a relatively low protein feed and ignore the advice of those who are attempting to sell you dog food!

There does appear to be a problem, though as I say, without seeing the dog trotting in a straight line, the need for the level of concern is difficult to decide. It will either be genetic and there's nothing that you can do about that, but if it's feed based, as I suspect that it may be, that you can correct. Just out of interest, what are you feeding and what is the regime?

None of the points above are a criticism of you because he looks very well in himself and cared for, just a little too well! :)

Will you keep us updated?

Alec.
 
That's a massive help, Alec. You're the first to point out to me that he's probably carrying too much weight. I hadn't noticed at all, but I am inclined to agree. He's fed raw and only once a day, but I have recently changed diets, so only been raw for less than a week. Before he was on a low protein, dry food.

When he came to me, he was tiny and under average in everything for his breed. His growth occurred extremely rapidly and he overtook the averages and eventually plateaued out.

His one foot, the front right, is more 10-2 than the left. I've been worried about elbow dysplasia, so I have watched his action a lot. When slow motion videos are recorded of his gait, he moves straight, his paws don't turn inwards. While he limps on one foot, it tends to be one at a time, alternating. It's only at a trot usually however his most recent one is not at trot but at walk. I watch him a lot (bit obsessive to make sure I don't miss anything!) and I have to say he doesn't favour a leg when it comes to lying down or manoeuvring or playing. He will use both legs equally and shows no signs of discomfort when manipulated or at rest.

Yes, I will keep updated. Next step is to take him back to the vets and x-ray. That way I have peace of mind.
 
caitlin95uk said:
……..

When he came to me, he was tiny and under average in everything for his breed. His growth occurred extremely rapidly and he overtook the averages and eventually plateaued out.

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And there in I suspect lays your problem. You're ahead of me it seems and feeding raw once a day is exactly the way that I would go too. Now to exercise; it's the devil and the deep blue sea. If you need to get weight off him then exercise is important, but 'if' he has OCD then too much exercise and flying about may well encourage the flaking process. Foals are generally put on box rest, and in your shoes, I would give him a month of lead work only.

I'm generally pretty hopeless at x-ray viewing, but when I've had foals x-rayed I've always asked that the plates be viewed by a specialist. Equine vets never mind me asking and neither should a canine vet either. They can ping them through to the AHT at Newmarket and you will have (and pay for) an opinion which can't be bettered.

Good luck, you're being entirely sensible and as we say, keep us updated!

Alec.

As an edit; generally the last person to ask about the dog is the owner because looking at the dog every day, it's so difficult to assess what's actually before us. You've managed it, not easy!
 
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Pano is an absolute b*st*rd. Have only had one dog suffer with it but she suffered on and off for a couple of years poor cow. As Alec said, cut the food and I would 'box rest' initially at the start of a flare and then introduce controlled exercise. As you need to get her to lose weight you may consider taking her swimming as this form of exercise is non-concussive so should not be an issue with pano. However, if it is OCD then it would not be advisable. May be worth the cost of an x-ray to get a firm diagnosis to understand what you are dealing with.

Apart from genetics there was also the theory that live vaccines could play a part in the cause of pano as well as over exercising. The following article is quite interesting at a high level re this. Unfortunately, because it is self-righting there seems to have been very little desire to do research - probably because the pharma companies appreciate that people will opt to let time take its course rather than spend money on drugs. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2084&aid=466

Basically, it is the red blood cells in the bone marrow in the medular cavity of the long bones that becomes 'infected' and starts putting down cartilaginous material that solidifies and causes the cavity to narrow. X-ray diagnosis is therefore when any variation in the thickness of the cavity is spotted.
 
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Thanks guys. Glad I am currently doing the right thing.
I agree Alec about his rapid growth being the issue. I might possibly have over-exercised him at the beginning. I didn't take him on long walks as such, just when he did walk I didn't restrict him and he seemed to just run and run and run for the whole 10-15 minutes. He's been on restricted exercise for the past 8 days now and his limp is unnoticeable. In the past, I would wrongly begin exercise again soon after the limp had gone. However, I am not doing that this time. As he's such an excitable puppy, I was struggling to restrict him and have been a bit too relaxed on the situation, thinking it's only pano and it's self-limiting. As I have now read up on other things it could be, I am a lot stricter.
Also thinking about his weight, I treat him a lot. If left alone he can be a bit destructive as he's on restricted exercise, so he has a kong, which is jam packed with lots of treats. So I'm sure some of my issue lies there. I'll find some less calorific treats.

Yes gunner, I've heard about vaccines causing similar, Ive read up about HOD and he fits some symptoms of. His limp did start soon after his vaccination, however that was also the same time as he began to go on walks and his rapid growth began, so I couldn't pin point exactly what caused it.

I think the most important thing about it is that it does go away with rest. Correct me if I am wrong but many bone problems seem to not go away no matter how much you rest it as the problem is still there. He can go weeks without an issue at all.

He loves to swim. So if it goes down that route and hydrotherapy is needed, I'm sure he will enjoy it.

But yes as it's self-limiting there doesn't seem to be any sort of definitive treatment annoyingly. When I took him to the vet, I was so worried and he was completely unbothered and said a lot of large breed puppies have it.

I have read a lot about it and I wish there was some more answers.
 
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