Do you think dressage is subjective?

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sophiebailey

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Before I explain my question I just want you all to know I'm not some hideously bratty 20something who believes they should win everything and throws tantrums if they don't; I'm just starting out in walk + trot level dressage and local level showing and am aware that I have a lot to learn and a long way to go! I enjoy dressage as the feedback always gives me something to go away and work on.

I've competed in about 6 tests to date, and in all of these averaged about 60% or above. This weekend I went to a venue I'd never done a test at before. We rode the test once and got a score then had the opportunity to ride again to see if we could improve our score after reading the judges comments. Our first test was a NIGHTMARE as Bailey got very excited and tried to canter on numerous occasions. So I accept I deserved my 46%!!! Took on board the comments and gave it another go, gained an extra 12% so was very happy with my improvement, but my retest felt as though it actually went BETTER than any test I'd done before!! Bailey was slow + steady, he dropped onto a contact for the majority of the test, he didn't cut corners and for the majority our accuracy was good :)

The basis of my question is as follows; (please don't take this as sour grapes as it isn't, I'm genuinley curious) a few of the people in my class rode similarly to me yet scored into the high 60's low 70's on their percentages, a few made errors on the course etc and still scored really highly. I've heard that in showing judging is subjective and if they just plain 'don't like' your horses looks and movement (I have a choppy striding cob) you don't do well; is this also true of dressage?

Would be interested to know your thoughts\experiences! :)

Again please don't think I'm being bratty, I have taken all the comments on my sheet on board and will be striving to improve on my score at my next test on Sunday, I was just wondering out loud I guess :)
 
Yes it is - but not only on the judges part. Yes you felt as if you rode better than the others, but it isn't just accuracy and coming into a contact.

A horse can feel as if it's in a frame/contact but if it is not tracking up underneath you then the judge will pick this up. IME judges prefer a horse that is forward going, feet underneath and moving freely and with its nose comparitively in the air and therfore will score higher than a horse that looks pretty but is going 'no-where'

Might be worth seeing if you can get someone to film each of your tests and then you can see what is actually happening underneath you in relation to the remarks on the test sheet.

ETA: I find dressage a lot less subjective than showing.
 
Less subjective than showing, more subjective than jumping ;)

Percentages will vary from judge to judge. Some are harder markers than others - that's all there is to it. Some judges look for slightly different things at lower unaff levels - some follow the BD score sheets to the letter, some are swayed by fancy action, some look for obedience over flash etc. I think there's meant to be more homogeneity if you ride affiliated, but I wouldn't know :p There is variation between list judges and your local nutjob who has no qualifications to judge dressage really.

I tend to look at the comments and if they agree with my own honest analysis of our performance, I tend to think they're probably right - and if they say that a X happened during a movement and I hadn't realised, I take it as constructive feedback. If I think none of their comments correlate with what I felt in the test, I tend to take them with a pinch of salt, once I've watched back the video footage of the test and failed to see what they saw!


regarding errors of course - these are penalised as -2 from your score (not %), so someone with errors of course could easily beat an accurate test if they averaged 7s while the accurate test averaged 6s!
 
Hiya,

I can't really answer your question as I really don't have the proper knowledge... However...

I have been in this situation. I had ridden a P test, it felt fantastic, lovely rhythm, forward but not rushing, accepting the contact etc, so I asked my instructor why I had such low marks when I thought our test "looked" like others people tests that had scored much higher.

She explained that although my boy was in an outline and looking "pretty", he wasn't actually engaging his hind quarters and he wasn't bending round my leg etc...

So in fact, what I thought was an amazing test, was actually rubbish!!! My bad!! :o
 
Fantastic responses thanks guys, I'll try and get someone to video me next time to see if what is going on underneath me looks like what I think it does!! :P xx
 
rhino said:
I think a lot of unaffiliated competitions are very poorly judged indeed :eek:
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Couldn't agree more - I mean, I've now done 3 unaff novices and at no point has any of the judges noticed that I am riding a bog pony and kicked me out of the venue in shame :eek:
 
JFTD said:
Couldn't agree more - I mean, I've now done 3 unaff novices and at no point has any of the judges noticed that I am riding a bog pony and kicked me out of the venue in shame :eek:
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:D :D As usual you are doing yourself and your pony a disservice :cool:

I always had it the other way with the ginge because he looked the part. Never scored less than 72% at Novice despite performing tests which I think would earn low 60s at BD :rolleyes:
 
I know someone who used to write for a dressage judge. They were at a comp one day, had judged 6 or 7 when a stunning horse came in to do the test. Before the judge had rung the bell, she turned to her writer and said 'theres the winner'. And yes, it did win.
 
rhino said:
:D :D As usual you are doing yourself and your pony a disservice :cool:

I always had it the other way with the ginge because he looked the part. Never scored less than 72% at Novice despite performing tests which I think would earn low 60s at BD :rolleyes:
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There's no disputing that he's a bog pony though ;) :D

Are you sure it's not just that the ginger one's awesome and you're doing him a disservice by suggesting he didn't deserve those marks though? :D
 
Unaffiliated judging can be very biased. Affiliated ought to be better, but at Prelim and Novice you can get some poor judges who will happily put up their pupils and friends.

At one time I organised a fair number of RC competitions and wrote for judges, it is a real eye opener. Half the judges did not follow the test properly and really didn't have a clue. They could also be very cruel.
 
My wife competes a little 14.1 welshie. She's taken this mare from a happy hack pony to Adv.Med BD and every level in between. Rev has over 300 BD points.
From experience unaff is a nighmare unless the venue is using a BD listed judge.
Apparently welsh ponies cant compete against flashy WBs :rolleyes:
The higher up the levels you go in BD the less subjective it seems to be but there is and always will be an element of that as each judge does seem to have certain elements that they focus on. OH would regularly read previous test sheets from the judge she was about to ride in front of so she could work out what they particularly liked / disliked and ride accordingly.

What was interesting for us was when wife judged an event section (I wrote for her).
Having judged the entire section we discussed who we though should be first, second, third etc. No way for us to influence this as sheets already collected.
Looking on the score board it thankfully reflected how we viewed the section.
So yes its subjective and the marks may vary from judge to judge but if the judge knows what they are doing then the result should be correct.
 
I did my first Prelim dressage test with my new horse yesterday, only had him a couple of weeks and scored all 6s and 7s and came joint third so I was delighted :) However the horse that won the class looked quite flashy and while he had a lovely walk and a nice trot, his canter looked completely out of control and the horse and rider did not present a pretty picture. It was the final of a riding club league, but I have watched most weeks of the league and this horse always either won or came second, and won the overall league. Each test was the same - not bad in walk and trot but careering around the arena in canter with the rider practically lying flat on the horse's back in order to get him to stop. I know the tests were probably all quite accurate with no errors, but surely the horse and rider should also present a harmonious picture? :confused:
 
Dressage is subjective to a point, especially at prelim where you get a real variety in where horses are in terms of their training.

Some judges prefer a test which is very forwards and consistent in the contact, even if the horse isn't near an outline to that of a horse coming in and out of one, or vice versa.

Also, if a horse has a dodgy pace it will be called out on in the collectives (or the subjectives, as we know them :D) but in the test trot is the most valuable- canter counts for about 20% of the marks and walk about 30% I think. So a crappy trot will get you rubbish marks, whereas a careering canter can really not affect you too much...
 
monkeybum13 said:
Trust me, it does...lol! :D
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If you can regain control though for the other bits, 4s and 5s for 2 canter movements shouldn't ruin 6s and 7s. I see ot from Reg has an awesome canter, but it's not enough to boost him up when he's doing his sewing machine trot!

The other thing to try is writing. How the rider rides is neither here nor there if the horse is going nicely, aside from in the collectives. Writing really highlights that- good classes to try and write for are the BEu18 ones because you get a massive range of horses and riders that I think you get less of in other sections... But write for a judge.

And don't compare percentages, but where you came in the class in comparison to other people's marks. So if the winner was on 50%, and you got 49%, you've probably fallen foul of a harsh marker. If the winner was on 90% and you were last on 65%, that isn't so good...
 
it is all very relative if not subjective so much and depends on where the judges like scoring. For those I have written for most prefer a 5-7, with the occasional 8. If a judge was scoring lower all day then the scores for your previous tests aren't really directly comparable iyswim.

I do think doing some writing if you can is very helpful, particularly with a good judge. :)
 
I am the pet writer of my instructor who does some judging at unaffilated level (she won't judge if I'm not free!).

It's really, really interesting from the other side and I sometimes learn more from watching then I do from riding.

It's a LOT harder to judge the less complicated tests where there's just not as much to judge on. She's explained her thinking - she doesn't want to put off people who trying to start out - she firmly believes that everyone can improve, but that they might not try again if the test sheet is very negative. However, as someone has to win and someone has to come last she will try to put the right horse/rider in the right position. The problem that happens is that in a class of 10 you end up with 5 average tests, who would get around 60%, then someone comes in the W/T test who look like they should be riding novice and above! Now there might be another one of those in the last 4, so that person's score can somewhat inflated cause they are so far above the 'average' level. Alternativly, it doesn't reflect in % terms how much better it was than the 'average' because they have been judged reflecting the talent of the combination. If a 6 was the base level for 'average', it might be a 5 for them. They'd still win, but perhaps not by 15%+!

There can be a HUGE range of ability/horse type in unaffiliated, much less so in affiliated. it can be very difficult to go from looking at the massive moving warmblood on it's first outing to the slightly stiff cute 10 year olds girls ancient but perfectly behaved shetland x!

Also in the lower level tests, where there are less movements to mark the collectives and the double scoring movement (normally the free walk) really do matter. I was writing intro A and P12 at the weekend, I am pretty sure there's a difference of 80 odd marks you can gain between the 2!

I actually think where I compete the unaffilated judging when I am riding is pretty good. It's very consitant across the venues and different prelim tests for me and my hairy bog pony. I think I am probably quite lucky in the choices here, but I enjoy it, so will keep on going. :)
 
Anything that comes down to a persons opion is subjective. Would suggest though that you get what you pay for, so you may pay more to enter an affiliated comp, but better chance of having a trained, consistant judge than the local village show. Like jumping, affiliated classes cost more, but usually better designed & you know you will get a safe standard of course.
 
benson21 said:
I know someone who used to write for a dressage judge. They were at a comp one day, had judged 6 or 7 when a stunning horse came in to do the test. Before the judge had rung the bell, she turned to her writer and said 'theres the winner'. And yes, it did win.
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Maybe the judge could see that the horse was forward and through as it trotted around the arena?

As a judge, in W&T and P tests, I don't give a monkeys where the head is, I would much rather see a horse going forward properly (NOT rushing) even if it is slightly nose poking, I absolutely hate to see a horse who is 'on the bit' but has it's hindlegs in the next county, however a horse that IS in a correct outline and also going forward properly in a good rhythm will get higher marks and a gentle comment that it is perhaps time to move up a level. I also try to look through flashy paces, I judged an Elementary test the other day where the horse 'dwelled' in the trot and did not track up, he was a lovely horse but the rider did not ride forward at all, I scored her at 61%, the winner was a super coloured cob on 66%, I am not by any stretch of the imagination a 'cob person' but this chap was going forward happily, very stable in the contact and had rhythm that many a musician would be proud of!

I spoke with the lady on the flashy horse afterwards, she said she normally got high 60s, but was very grateful for my feedback and agreed she did not ride him forward but was concentrating on collection instead (a common mistake!). I also judged her as if it were an affiliated test (I don't believe in giving marks out unless earned) so she was actually really happy to get the percentage she did get once I had explained it to her. Talk to the judge at the end of the test and perhaps things will become clearer, you might even learn something!

Sooooo ride forward with rhythm and accuracy, most judges will reward this regardless of the horse's type or breeding.
 
I've done some writing for several different judges at riding club level and I've found all of them to be fair and very reasonable. They've all explained their reasons if they've marked a movement down using the comment box, and in a lot of cases giving higher marks rather than lower ones.

I've learnt an awful lot from doing the writing so I'd suggest doing it if you can sometime to get an idea of what the judges are looking for. In my experience most marks are carelessly lost by simple things like not riding straight down the centre line and not having your horse stretch long and low whilst doing a free walk on a long rein. Not that I'm an expert at all but these are things the judges have commented to me about when I've been writing for them.
 
bikerchickone said:
I've done some writing for several different judges at riding club level and I've found all of them to be fair and very reasonable. They've all explained their reasons if they've marked a movement down using the comment box, and in a lot of cases giving higher marks rather than lower ones.

I've learnt an awful lot from doing the writing so I'd suggest doing it if you can sometime to get an idea of what the judges are looking for. In my experience most marks are carelessly lost by simple things like not riding straight down the centre line and not having your horse stretch long and low whilst doing a free walk on a long rein. Not that I'm an expert at all but these are things the judges have commented to me about when I've been writing for them.
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Absolutely, centre lines are often wobbly because the horse is not going forward and the free walk is my pet hate, I get so over excited when someone actually does one (which is around 1 in every 15!)

The free walk is very important, the reason being that if a horse has been working properly through, when invited to take the rein he will automatically want to stretch into it and the walk lengthens. You have to INVITE the horse to do this, just chucking the reins forward is not enough and normally ends up with the horse shuffling along with his nose in the air - sorry that's a 4/5!
 
I've done a lot of writing for judges and in my experience they are mainly looking at the movement rather than the head carriage.
Also a lot of judges have said to me that there can be the flashiest horse in the world but if it can't walk properly it will pull the whole test down especially as on a lot of tests the free walk is double marks.
 
TheHairyOne said:
Alternativly, it doesn't reflect in % terms how much better it was than the 'average' because they have been judged reflecting the talent of the combination. If a 6 was the base level for 'average', it might be a 5 for them. They'd still win, but perhaps not by 15%+!
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Precisely why I don't like some unaffiliated judges. Competitors should not be judged as how well they are going compared to the 'talent of the combination'. That is an abuse of the marking system.

I also much prefer a judge who will give an 8 for a good movement and a 3 for a fairly bad one, than one who will stick to the safe 5s and 6s.
 
rhino said:
Precisely why I don't like some unaffiliated judges. Competitors should not be judged as how well they are going compared to the 'talent of the combination'. That is an abuse of the marking system.

I also much prefer a judge who will give an 8 for a good movement and a 3 for a fairly bad one, than one who will stick to the safe 5s and 6s.
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I agree with you but I do think the judge should have in mind the capabilities of the horse to an extent. I'm not suggesting they give marks for a "good try", which is what I think you are also saying they shouldn't do. But I think that judges should appreciate that a cob or native will not move in the same way as a warmblood and to an extent mark with that in mind, so showing lengthened strides in a novice test is harder for a cob type than a warmblood type so perhaps the judge shouldn't expect a hugely noticeable difference.

Not sure I explained that properly.....
 
I get what you're saying; however if a combination deserves to be 15% ahead of others then I think they should be given those marks. I hate classes where 30+ horses are all within a few percent of each other.
 
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sophiebailey said:
Fantastic responses thanks guys, I'll try and get someone to video me next time to see if what is going on underneath me looks like what I think it does!! :P xx
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I did this on my last outing. I initially thought he judge's marks were rather harsh....until I saw our video - we looked dreadful (really downhill).
 
I've written for a lot of BD comps at all levels...the simple answer to the question is yes. Contact your local centre which holds BD and see if you can volunteer for some writing. Try and do a good few stints of it with different judges. I can pretty much garuntee they'll snap you up. My dressage marks have improved greatly from doing this. It will teach you what the judge is looking for.

It will also highlight just how subjective the judging is, and can make a very interesting experience. ;)
 
Kat said:
so showing lengthened strides in a novice test is harder for a cob type than a warmblood type so perhaps the judge shouldn't expect a hugely noticeable difference.
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For once I find myself in disagreement with you. :eek: The mark should be awarded based on the prescribed standard, not how ease or difficult is is for a specific breed.
On that basis BS should have variable hieght BN classes based on breed type.:p

Native cobby type (welsh D doing lengthened :p Just had to work harder in the training
rev1-1.jpg
 
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