Do you think horses "think"??

[tallyho!]

Just wondered... on my other thread (wasn't supposed to be a fight...) some have started talking about whether horses have emotions or whether this is an anthropomorphic view of them.

Can they be sad, happy or embarrassed even? Do they have dignity in the sense we do?

Of course they don't talk so lets not get too silly about it, but do you think they are capable of complex thoughts or emotions (more complex than a tree frog but less than Stephen Hawking)? Or, do you think they are strictly stimulus:response creatures?

Whether or not it is anthropomorphism (why is everyone scared of this word???) I believe (and would even go as far as to say I "know") they think

 

[Megibo]

i was thinking this today...they definitely have feelings, but i do wonder if they think about things! even if, for example as they know their routine well, even if it's to walk up to their field gate and wonder where their humans are as they are late! or something!

 

[Supertrooper]

Yes I do, I think they are far more intelligent than most people think and I'd much rather have the relationship that I have with my horse than just treating him like an object!

My horse certainly has a sense of humour and he can be happy/grumpy/tired/silly and lots of other things xx

 

[Supertrooper]

Sorry and back to the original question, yes I do think they can think xx

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

Mine can both think

They both have come up with all sorts of exciting ways to try and get out of work for example.......

 

[Jazzy B]

I think they do have emotions and of course they think but I don't think they label emotions like we do, i.e. I don't think a horse thinks I'm going to do x because that will make everyone laugh or I love that owner more than anyone else and if they leave I'm going to be really sad maybe

 

[Meowy Catkin]

http://www.grandin.com/references/thinking.animals.html

A horse trainer once said to me, "Animals don't think, they just make associations." I responded to that by saying, "If making associations is not thinking, then I would have to conclude that I do not think."

 

[PennyJ]

Absolutely yes. Watch and learn from them. It is all there if you know what you are looking for. Humour, irritation, love - the lot. I am lucky to have a very expressive one, I'm not sure if 6 years ago I would have believed anyone who tried to tell me this. Other horses keep it to themselves and are very self contained. Possibly due to years of being let down by their human masters.

Can anyone come up with a reason other than humour for why my boy will from time to time whilst out on a hack set up a jog at a particular speed that results ina bow wave with my bust. Kind of piaffe like. He goes along neck arched, nose tucked in etc etc like a fancy horse (no one around to watch). This sets me off giggling which only encourages him all the more, the more I ask him to stop, the longer he carries on. He's a native pony ridden by my daughters and me, he only does this when I am riding him.

 

[jaquelin]

My view somewhat informed by science is that horses have some limited ability to think that is dependent mainly on the horse in question. That is, some think "better" than others. Horses are mainly reactive, hence the use of stimulus response training methods: use of legs or body weight to make horse move, etc. The degree to which they think depends on the extent to which they can engage their higher brain, and that depends a lot on how they have been backed or trained, or if they have been backed or trained. Emotionally, I think horses have two main states: calm or anxious. When anxious, their lower brain functions dominate: they will react, by lashing out, biting, kicking or fleeing. So to get a horse to think they need to be calm so that their higher brains can engage. They do affliate with other horses, people, animals and are selective about this. And they do have some amazing "emotional" reactions that probably come about through responding to pheromones, but who knows? I respect horses for what they are and always try to bear in mind that they do not see the world the way I do. Therefore when a horse reacts a particular way which I might interpret as fear, hostility, etc, I don't assume that I am right - who knows why they are reacting that way? I don't think they are prone to complex emotional states, like us - and thank God for that!

 

[tazzle]

one of the problems about looking at emotions with regard to whether horses think is that some emotions are learnt or dependant on culture / environment

eg embarrassment ( which some people might be wondering that the trick horse on another thread might feel ? )

humans are born with fairly universal emotions like fear, anger and happiness which we see very young children exhibit without inhibition... and if they do things like break wind, fall down or make a mistake they are not "embarrassed" ...... that comes when they learnt that their particular society deems it to be somehow not sociallly "correct" or that people will laugh at them.

I think horses are probably thinking emotionally at the same basic level and without the learnt emotions ......... and unless humans prevent them doing so by punishing them they will express themselves emotionally through a wide range of emotions.

It is my experience that horses do think about doing things that will get them a pleasant experience and seek it out without being prompted to do so ........ so some "thinking" must have been going on and a desire to have the pleasant thing occur.

eg I often spend several hours at the yard with the horses loose wandering around eating, resting and generally chilling...... then for no apparrent reason Taz will wander over and present a behaviour that she no doubt expects a treat for ( she is clicker trained) ...... if she does not get it with the first she will try several

of course horses think

 

[fidleyspromise]

Yup. Mine can think up more ways to get out of work, than I can to keep her doing what I what her to do

Used to open gate and let all horses in to go to their own stables. One day the bird scarer went off as they got beside it and they all shot up the field - leaving my pony at the back of the herd and unable to come for her breakfast. She then turned around, cantered up 2 fields, poped over a XC jump (which she had never gone over before) and came down the other set of fields. She was therefore in first as the other horse STILL didn't move.
She may well have been determined to get her breakfast, but she had to think as to how to get to the yard without passing the herd.

 

[Onyxia]

Of course they think and feel, the shocker would eb if they did not

I think total emotional projection is a problem (you might be misrable without a thick coat on but your horse will be fine for example) but it is also usefull to put yourself in the horses shoes now and then, providing you keep in mind the very different view of the world horses have

 

[Jackson]

http://www.grandin.com/references/thinking.animals.html

I think that's a great quote. I think horses and all animals are much more intelligent and thoughtful than we give them credit for. I also believe that our 'feelings' that we think are so superior to those of our pets are based a lot on instinct. We are all only animals, afterall.

The more you allow yourself to see your horses character, the more they will let you. I go down the yard and adjust whatever I'm planning depending on doing depending on how Jack is feeling. He's very expressive, because I let him be.

 

[Emilieu]

Faracat thanks for that link, I found that very interesting reading. I think horses think in a straightforward way that I find relaxing - eg: something is good, bad, scary, fun etc. I'm sure that is why they are so often easier to be with than humans!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No problem.

I once watched a wonderful programme about crows, they were making tools by bending wire (much more advanced than a chimp using a stick that they found). It was eye-opening how intelligent and capable of problem solving they are.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8181233.stm

 

[NeilM]

I believe the question should be, do equines think? As some horses are clearly low on intelligence, but high on instinct / learned behaviour, while some ponies are as sharp as a razor blade (which cannot always be said of the owners).

I am sure equines think, but the amount of thought as opposed to instinct depends very much on the individual. It is quite clear looking at some horses that 'the lights are on, but no ones home' where as with a crafty little Sec A or Shetland you can see the gears turning.

I only have close up experience with ponies, mainly New Forest's, and there is no doubt in my mind that they are problem solvers. That is not to say they do not react due to instinct as well, clearly they do, as anyone who has moved from standstill, to warp factor 9 in the opposite direction in less time than it take to say Wha....? will know.

As for anthropomorphism: The reason that this term holds so much weight is because of people who either believe that equines have an understanding of emotion, consequence, time, guilt and any number of other human constructs and emotions that equines simply do not have. A perfect example, and one seen only too often, is the petulant or angry rider who has been dumped on the arena floor, who then beats their horse / pony minutes (or even longer) after the event to 'teach it a lesson'. In the event, the horse learns nothing, other than when it's rider approaches it is likely to get hit.

Equines do not have human 'understanding' those who believe they do anthropomorphise to the detriment of the horse / pony.

 

[jeeve]

Absolutely animals have emotions and feelings. You cannot be around animals and not see this.

Do they think, well I believe they do. When you appear at the gate, they may think "oh there is tommy has he got food, or does he want to go for a ride, bugger, looks like he wants to go out for a ride" and then they spend the next 20 mins racing over the paddock not being caught.

Also having some ponies which have been excellent gate openers, they must have put a bit of thought into that. They must know that we humans open the gate using the chain, think about having a go, and realise their lips are not that different to our fingers. There is a definite purpose behind the action, therefore must be some thought.

 

[Emilieu]

Oooh I saw that prog about the crows too, have looked at them with massive respect ever since. I also heard somewhere - maybe same programme? - that they drop nuts on roads so that the cars will crack the shells for them. They drop them most often on pedestrian crossings - obviously giving them better opportunities to collect the nuts! Aren't they marvellous?

 

[tallyho!]

Thanks Neil, but you know, if we got talking about shitlands then that would be opening a whole other can of worms!!!

If anthropomorphism is projecting human thoughts and emotions onto animals then I think it is OK! Are we not animals? Do we not run from danger? Are our primary motivations not fear and pleasure?

The way we are today has been shaped by the gradual order that has developed from living in social groups - societies. In addition to hunting and gathering, we started to farm and from that arose the need to count and barter. This is an extreme simplification, forgive me but without our upright stance and opposable thumbs, we'd still be chewing leaves. Therefore we must also be stimulus:response animals.... our brain responding in size and developing more neurons to the amount of stimulus from handling prey and growing food.

Back to horses... the brain of a horse is larger than a cows, not as large as ours but not that far off (did you watch "inside Natures Giants"?). Looked all folded and grey like ours which suggest the presence of grey matter - the bit not associated with primary function but more emotion and thinking. Doesn't need to be bigger than this because they don't have to work out how to do the plumbing or working out next weeks food budget... but they do have to work out how live in an unnatural environment, get used to a feeding "regime", figure out TIME, yes, time. Also, work out what the left leg in the ribs mean and how to stand still when a farrier comes.

If your argument that horses respond by association only, then how do they forgive and forget our shortcomings? Learn to trust people again if they have been abused? Surely they must have to process new information about something they previously feared and learn. That is another thing... how do they learn, if they do not think?

 

[Ibblebibble]

hell yes they think, i only have to watch my borrowed pony working out how to escape from his paddock to know there is more than just instinct going on in that brain

 

[EstherYoung]

I think they think like horses not people. Which means they are much sharper at some kinds of brain activity than we are in some areas, and we are sharper than them in others.

But that's what makes it so incredible, really, this symbiotic relationship between horses and humans. Everything about it shouldn't work, and yet they let us into their world and we let them into ours.

You've only got to look at the herd interacting with each other. Their ability to communicate through body language is far superior to ours. And their memories are incredible.

 

[SO1]

I don't think they think, not in the same ways as we do, they won't be pondering the meaning of life or wondering what humans are thinking.

They do have things they like and dislike though for example I know my pony likes being brushed and I can see that from the relaxed expression on his face, he also likes eating and again if you bring him some nice tasty food you can see in his face that he is very pleased. He will also tell you when he is annoyed again mainly related to food not coming after he has asked for it or if he is not in the mood for being schooled. He also has intelligence to learn when food might come and how certain behaviours result in certain outcomes. He has also learnt a few words so if I say back back he will back up and he knows good boy as well, he also understands No as well. He has done an excellant job in teaching me what he likes and dislikes so I know he likes hacking out and jumping but does not like being schooled much. He also likes living out.

So no I don't think they think in the same way as we do, but they do have social intelligence and can express themselves and have likes and dislikes.

 

[JFTDWS]

They certainly think - just not in the same way that we do! There's a big divide between basic emotions, and complex societal conventions. Horses, imo, experience both, in their own way - basic emotions of fear, contentment etc, and societal convention (if you can call it that) - what they're taught is acceptable / desirable / undesirable by social interaction within the herd. Thus a stallion who falls over in front of his herd may appear sheepish / embarassed - they understand that they have done something which may affect their standing in the herd - a more complex emotion, but in keeping with their own societal convention - not ours.

Just as small children lack the inhibitions of adults, animals lack the the understanding of our societal norms, which are alien to them. To me, that means that a horse can learn that "x reaction will provoke a desirable response from a human" but they are unlikely to be embarassed by performing a trick which some humans might see as degrading.

With regard to intelligence, I would say that my 2 year old will break into my hay barn to steal haylage if I leave him in the adjacent field. When my other horses do this and I tell them off, they head off to the other end of the field and graze. The yearling, however, waits 20m away until I return to what I am doing (go into feed room / turn back to get wheelbarrow) and then head straight into the barn, grab a mouthful of haylage and retreat before I can reprimand him. There is definitely a thought process behind that. Like the others, he doesn't like being told off, so he avoids it - but unlike the others he still manages to get his haylage as well. It's not a trick he's learnt or been taught, he worked it out for himself.

If he were a human, I would be inclined to say he lacks moral fibre by trying to conceal his haylage theft - a dissembler with no respect for the law. Fortunately, he is a horse, so I prefer to think of him as merely an intelligent little beggar.

 

[Dubsie]

Our NF clearly thinks with his stomach.

 

[EAST KENT]

My Highland certainly works stuff out,example..I put one of those stall guards across a doorway,so the pet pig could have a cosy secure stable to herself.Morag wanted in,looked,turned around and reversed onto it and then sat on it.Bust stall guard,access to stable,in about a minute flat.
Put in a second one..and she was even quicker.She can remove any headcollar,and somehow gets out of turn out rugs without undoing any straps,perfect rug..but no pony in it.

 

[tallyho!]

It would be interesting to hear the perspective of animal communicators....?

 

[Spotsrock]

When I approach a meter high xc fence at a good east canter, I am thinking oh poop. Yet every time the stride is adjusted, the take off perfect, the landing neat and i'm still on top. One of us is planning our approach shortening or lengthening our stride and judging size of fence and I know it is not me! Ok so she's responding to the stimulus of the fence but there's quite a bit to think about imo. Oh and l can figure out most door or gate fastenings.

 

[Spotsrock]

Ha ha that's. L not I

 

[Ladyinred]

If you will all forgive the anthropomorphic style of writing then this is a wonderful description of how horses think, and also how they interpret 'time' which, naturally has a bearing on their thinking. It is by a well-known Canadian lady called Gwen Santagate:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/natural_horsemanship/99205

 

[tallyho!]

If you will all forgive the anthropomorphic style of writing then this is a wonderful description of how horses think, and also how they interpret 'time' which, naturally has a bearing on their thinking. It is by a well-known Canadian lady called Gwen Santagate:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/natural_horsemanship/99205

Please do not apologise when using that word! It's not necessary. It is used by scientists and experts who are embarrassed that peers may think they are "soft" in the head. Or even worse be called cartoonists... And anyway, if they were religious, it is not the done thing to humanise the God/s. It is like a sin to some people.

I however, think we should do it more often! It is not to our detriment. Not if we are intelligent enough to know the boundaries and it seems many people who have replied to this thread are. I think it let's us understand the world we live in so much better if only we lost the pride that makes us separate US from THEM.

After all, to have empathy is a very human trait, to avoid it is like to deny a part of us exists! It's the part that is missing in many ways.