seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
If a horse windsucks compulsively do you think it is cruel for it to have a collar on 24-7 ?
Do you think it is cruel?
- Thread starter seabiscuit
- Start date
blakey
Well-Known Member
Yes, i am now obsessed with 'Think Equus, and horses only windsuck because they are ment to be chewing, if they cant chew then they have to find smething else to do, so TURN THEM OUT!!!
magic104
Well-Known Member
I agree, if they use fence posts, then put an electric tape across, and keep them out as much as possible. I know that not all yards offer this solution, but if you have to keep them in the provide them with hay adlib, as it has been proved that windsucking is not just down to boredom, but the build up of acids in the stomach. I have 'touch wood' never had this problem, but my guys are also out 24/7 in the summer & only come in at nights in the winter. If they have to stay in because of the shoots or the hunt then they are given as much haylage as they can eat and excerised am & pm.
pixie
Well-Known Member
Windsucking is a sterotypy - stereotypies have been defined as behaviors that are repetitive, performed the same way each time, and seem to serve no obvious purpose or function. They may be compulsive behaviors that have become displaced, perhaps due to boredom, frustration, or unresolved stress.
I think its their own way of providing relief from boredom or stress. A collar just prevents them from venting their frustration, which I think is cruel. I would try more to look into the cause of the problem.
I think its their own way of providing relief from boredom or stress. A collar just prevents them from venting their frustration, which I think is cruel. I would try more to look into the cause of the problem.
magic104
Well-Known Member
"Windsucking is a sterotypy" that is the old way of thinking, a lot more research has been done & it is now thought the lack of forage is now to blame. There is also a thought that the way a foal is weaned also contributes to windsucking.
How can I control Wind Sucking?
Don't try making surfaces unpleasant to taste as this is only likely to make the horse more frustrated. It is better to allow your horse to crib bite on a suitable surface, such as a hard rubber board, than to try to physically prevent the behaviour with straps or collars.
Make sure your horse has lots of roughage in his diet and plenty to chew on during the day.
Latest Research
Five years ago Michael Peace and his wife Susi came up with a theory that rather than being stress related, wind-sucking could possibly be due to a problem horses have in digestion. They'd noticed years before that wind-sucking horses kept on limestone soils tended to wind-suck less than if they were kept on clay soils for example. They decided to try feeding Rennie (the human antacid treatment for indigestion) to a wind sucking horse they owned at the time. They gave the horse 6 Rennie tablets after his feed and his wind sucking decreased by 200%. The results were amazing albeit in just a one horse trial. So simple, yet nobody had come up with it in years of research. They went to De Montfort University with their idea who carried out an extensive trial on 100 horses and the results proved to be significant. This has changed the whole direction of research into wind-sucking in horses.
In a joint project between the University of Lincoln and Feedmark horses fed an antacid supplement did not exhibit crib biting and windsucking as often. Feedmark have launched an antacid supplement for horses - Settlelex. For more information call 0800
Ok
How can I control Wind Sucking?
Don't try making surfaces unpleasant to taste as this is only likely to make the horse more frustrated. It is better to allow your horse to crib bite on a suitable surface, such as a hard rubber board, than to try to physically prevent the behaviour with straps or collars.
Make sure your horse has lots of roughage in his diet and plenty to chew on during the day.
Latest Research
Five years ago Michael Peace and his wife Susi came up with a theory that rather than being stress related, wind-sucking could possibly be due to a problem horses have in digestion. They'd noticed years before that wind-sucking horses kept on limestone soils tended to wind-suck less than if they were kept on clay soils for example. They decided to try feeding Rennie (the human antacid treatment for indigestion) to a wind sucking horse they owned at the time. They gave the horse 6 Rennie tablets after his feed and his wind sucking decreased by 200%. The results were amazing albeit in just a one horse trial. So simple, yet nobody had come up with it in years of research. They went to De Montfort University with their idea who carried out an extensive trial on 100 horses and the results proved to be significant. This has changed the whole direction of research into wind-sucking in horses.
In a joint project between the University of Lincoln and Feedmark horses fed an antacid supplement did not exhibit crib biting and windsucking as often. Feedmark have launched an antacid supplement for horses - Settlelex. For more information call 0800
Ok
magic104
Well-Known Member
Another expert view!
Recent Innovations in the Management of Crib-biting
Both McGreevy and colleagues (1995a) and Redbo and colleagues (1998) have also reported that cribbing appears to be associated with the feeding of concentrates, which supports the observation of Fitzwygram (1911) who reported that the condition most commonly arises from some form of acidity of the stomach. In 1888, Mayhew suggested that the condition could be prevented if treated in the early stages with a lump of rock-salt in the manger; (and) a large piece of chalk; should these be unavailing, always damp the food, and, at each time of feeding, sprinkle magnesia upon it, and mingle a large handful of ground oak-bark with each feed of corn. This observation appears to have been forgotten and not tested experimentally on subjects of any age until recently. In 1997 a pilot study (Mills unpublished data) was conducted using a commercial antacid preparation (Rennie, Laboratoires Roche Nicholas SA, France) (Fig 1). This suggested that treatment with antacids might have the potential to significantly reduce cribbing. Coincidentally at around the same time, Nicol (1999) was suggesting that these oral behaviours, including wood chewing, might be an attempt to increase alkaline saliva flow to reduce the increased acidity associated with feeding concentrate rations. Thus providing a potentially sound scientific basis to the mechanism behind the effect seen. Crib-biting in foals has subsequently been found to be associated with gastric ulceration (Nicol et al, 2001) and we have recently completed a double-blind placebo-controlled field study into the use of antacids for the control of cribbing in adult horses (Mills and Macleod, manuscript submitted). The results of this study will be presented.
Table 1 Management changes for the control of equine stereotypic behaviour and their reported success, (data from McBride and Long, 2001)
Technique
Reported prevalence of technique (%)
Proportion reporting success (%)
Reduced time in stable
49.3
75.1
Stable toys
12.3
44.7
Increased exercise
1.4
100.0
Regular change of horses stable
9.6
70.1
Increased social contact
9.6
70.1
Exercise before other horses
5.5
100.0
Feed before other horses
4.1
100.0
Increased hay ration
6.8
60.3
More varied view from stable
2.7
50.0
Use of stable chain instead of a solid door
1.4
100.0
Increased size of stable
5.5
100.0
Recent Innovations in the Management of Crib-biting
Both McGreevy and colleagues (1995a) and Redbo and colleagues (1998) have also reported that cribbing appears to be associated with the feeding of concentrates, which supports the observation of Fitzwygram (1911) who reported that the condition most commonly arises from some form of acidity of the stomach. In 1888, Mayhew suggested that the condition could be prevented if treated in the early stages with a lump of rock-salt in the manger; (and) a large piece of chalk; should these be unavailing, always damp the food, and, at each time of feeding, sprinkle magnesia upon it, and mingle a large handful of ground oak-bark with each feed of corn. This observation appears to have been forgotten and not tested experimentally on subjects of any age until recently. In 1997 a pilot study (Mills unpublished data) was conducted using a commercial antacid preparation (Rennie, Laboratoires Roche Nicholas SA, France) (Fig 1). This suggested that treatment with antacids might have the potential to significantly reduce cribbing. Coincidentally at around the same time, Nicol (1999) was suggesting that these oral behaviours, including wood chewing, might be an attempt to increase alkaline saliva flow to reduce the increased acidity associated with feeding concentrate rations. Thus providing a potentially sound scientific basis to the mechanism behind the effect seen. Crib-biting in foals has subsequently been found to be associated with gastric ulceration (Nicol et al, 2001) and we have recently completed a double-blind placebo-controlled field study into the use of antacids for the control of cribbing in adult horses (Mills and Macleod, manuscript submitted). The results of this study will be presented.
Table 1 Management changes for the control of equine stereotypic behaviour and their reported success, (data from McBride and Long, 2001)
Technique
Reported prevalence of technique (%)
Proportion reporting success (%)
Reduced time in stable
49.3
75.1
Stable toys
12.3
44.7
Increased exercise
1.4
100.0
Regular change of horses stable
9.6
70.1
Increased social contact
9.6
70.1
Exercise before other horses
5.5
100.0
Feed before other horses
4.1
100.0
Increased hay ration
6.8
60.3
More varied view from stable
2.7
50.0
Use of stable chain instead of a solid door
1.4
100.0
Increased size of stable
5.5
100.0
sillygillyhorse
Well-Known Member
Poppey it is fine to say turn them out but some horses cannot be turned out as they colic when fed grass (you would quickly kill my horse if you turned him out!). In a perfect world yes I turn out but horsemanship is all about knowing your individual horse and working with it, what works for one doesnt work for them all.
Josh_craney
Well-Known Member
thers a horse at my yard he wheres one 12 hrs a day ex race horse i feel so sorry for him owner comes up mucks him out pus him back in the stable. he goes out on a night but in the winter he is kept in his stable 23 and a half ours a day for like 5 months no wonder he windsucks if hes so bored.
pixie
Well-Known Member
Er, I'm sorry, I'm just repeating what I was taught at university.
[ QUOTE ]
It is better to allow your horse to crib bite on a suitable surface, such as a hard rubber board, than to try to physically prevent the behaviour with straps or collars.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that's pretty much what I said.
The research that you've quoted seems to be in regards to cribbing, not windsucking. And even that seems to suggest that there are ways to prevent this, such as more turnout, stable toys, etc. I said that its better to looks at the cause of the problem. This may be boredom, stress, or perhaps even the diet. This is whystable toys, increased social contact, increased exercise etc have had success.
[ QUOTE ]
It is better to allow your horse to crib bite on a suitable surface, such as a hard rubber board, than to try to physically prevent the behaviour with straps or collars.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that's pretty much what I said.
The research that you've quoted seems to be in regards to cribbing, not windsucking. And even that seems to suggest that there are ways to prevent this, such as more turnout, stable toys, etc. I said that its better to looks at the cause of the problem. This may be boredom, stress, or perhaps even the diet. This is whystable toys, increased social contact, increased exercise etc have had success.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Having owned winsuckers I would never attempt to physically stop them - have never owned a cribber
I feed Coligone Powder to aid with the acid build up - I cant turn him out all day or night as he doesnt like being out - he stands in the field getting more and more tense!
I feed Coligone Powder to aid with the acid build up - I cant turn him out all day or night as he doesnt like being out - he stands in the field getting more and more tense!
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, i am now obsessed with 'Think Equus, and horses only windsuck because they are ment to be chewing, if they cant chew then they have to find smething else to do, so TURN THEM OUT!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
If you'd read seabiscuits other posts you wouldnt reply with such a catty remark.
Contstructive advice would be far more useful.
SB- Knowing you and knowing you do everything for your horses, I know that you've searched every alternative so if the windsucking is detrimenting his health then no, I'd have no problems with leaving the collar on the majority of the time
Yes, i am now obsessed with 'Think Equus, and horses only windsuck because they are ment to be chewing, if they cant chew then they have to find smething else to do, so TURN THEM OUT!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
If you'd read seabiscuits other posts you wouldnt reply with such a catty remark.
Contstructive advice would be far more useful.
SB- Knowing you and knowing you do everything for your horses, I know that you've searched every alternative so if the windsucking is detrimenting his health then no, I'd have no problems with leaving the collar on the majority of the time
Tempi
Well-Known Member
honestly i dont think the collars even work - horse next to bloss at my yard wears one and it does absolutly nothing. Waste of money if you ask me!!! But i dont have a problem with people leaving them all the time if they think its helping, old horse from yard wore his all the time - you just need to be careful it doesnt start rubbing.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
If they wear a collar, it only works when they try to windsuck? If so leave it on, it won't be used 90% of the time. If a horse wants to windsuck it will even with a full haynet/field of grass. Those are ways of preventing it from starting, once its in its head to windsuck thats it, you can only deal with it and try to reduce the effects.
spaniel
Well-Known Member
I dont agree with collars, Ive seen so many horses that have managed to get round them and crib and suck whilst wearing them. The horses desire to repeat the action is so strong that to try and prevent it or actually prevent it mechanically or physically is, IMO, cruel.
Far better to steel yourself to the noise and address the cause if you can. I know of cribbers and suckers who will continue their habit whether they are in a stable, a field or any other environment, others who have been helped immensely with a change of diet or exercise regimne but I dont believe there is one answer.
There comes a point with some horses where you just have to let them get on with it rather than drive them slowly mad by stopping them.
Far better to steel yourself to the noise and address the cause if you can. I know of cribbers and suckers who will continue their habit whether they are in a stable, a field or any other environment, others who have been helped immensely with a change of diet or exercise regimne but I dont believe there is one answer.
There comes a point with some horses where you just have to let them get on with it rather than drive them slowly mad by stopping them.
blakey
Well-Known Member
Who said it was a catty remark?????
She asked an opinion and i gave it??
Ano no i havent read the other posts, i have no idea who she is or who her horses are or what they do, i was mearly answering a question.
She asked an opinion and i gave it??
Ano no i havent read the other posts, i have no idea who she is or who her horses are or what they do, i was mearly answering a question.
Judie
Well-Known Member
"If you'd read seabiscuits other posts you wouldnt reply with such a catty remark.
Contstructive advice would be far more useful"
I don't think Poppy was being catty, she clearly (like most of us probable) hasn't read all the other posts and had no idea feeding SBs pony grass would kill it or she would never had made the, IMHO, obvious comment.
SB, difficult to give advice as your pony/horse obviously has some other issues (eating grass etc), the question I would ask myself in your shoes is how detrimental is the windsucking to his quality of life?
Contstructive advice would be far more useful"
I don't think Poppy was being catty, she clearly (like most of us probable) hasn't read all the other posts and had no idea feeding SBs pony grass would kill it or she would never had made the, IMHO, obvious comment.
SB, difficult to give advice as your pony/horse obviously has some other issues (eating grass etc), the question I would ask myself in your shoes is how detrimental is the windsucking to his quality of life?
Judie
Well-Known Member
SB, got your pony mixed up with Mrs Ts so ignore that bit!
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
Ok I'm sorry then, it was maybe just a bit blunt- writing in capitals TURN HIM OUT just wasnt a particularly appropriate thing to say imho.
Puppy
Well-Known Member
Sorry to go off on a slight tangent, but we had a horse at college who cribbed. One of the senior staff likened it to his choice to be a smoker and whenever he handled her he would take off the collar and say "oh let her have her guilty pleasure". Think it used to drive the girls who ran the yard a little mad!!
Back to the opening post (sorry for going off topic
) I think it depends on the idividual horse. If the horse is quickly resigned to the fact they cannot do it then sure leave it on for most of the time. If they immediately get aggitated then obviously its not going to do them any favours. Star gets colicky if put in a collar so I gave up on it PDQ!!! Even if it doen't induce colic it could make the horse so anxious and tense they may be much harder to handle and just as hard to keep weight on.
Poppey - I do think you are being a bit naive by thinking "turn out wil solve it!" I've had Star for 9 1/2 years and she lives out nearly all the time (unless circumstances mean she HAS to come it) and she has almost an entirely fibre bassed diet - However, that isn't going to "undo" the 7 years before I had her when she was stabled almost constantly and hence the habit is well and truly formed!! I use electric fencing to keep her away from the wooden posts of the fencing, but she often gets to the all the same (oh the hours of my life spent rebuilding electric fencing) but she will always be a cribber - I accept that!!
SB - have been away and so I hold my hand up and say I'm a bit behind and don't know the current situation with your horse, but wish you all the best. xx
Back to the opening post (sorry for going off topic
Poppey - I do think you are being a bit naive by thinking "turn out wil solve it!" I've had Star for 9 1/2 years and she lives out nearly all the time (unless circumstances mean she HAS to come it) and she has almost an entirely fibre bassed diet - However, that isn't going to "undo" the 7 years before I had her when she was stabled almost constantly and hence the habit is well and truly formed!! I use electric fencing to keep her away from the wooden posts of the fencing, but she often gets to the all the same (oh the hours of my life spent rebuilding electric fencing) but she will always be a cribber - I accept that!!
SB - have been away and so I hold my hand up and say I'm a bit behind and don't know the current situation with your horse, but wish you all the best. xx
Tia
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately windsucking and cribbing are really a bit of an addiction for horses who have these vices. I feel that if you have a horse like this then you just have to get used to the noises and damage they do; or try to help by giving them something to try to alleviate the addiction rather than trying to stop them from getting their "fix".
Tough call as I can't bear the sound of a windsucker! I had a cribber at my yard for a short time in the UK - owner put a large (non-poisonous) log in horse's stable and horse was content with his log and ceased from eating my stables!!
I didn't vote as wasn't really sure if there was an option for how I think about collars. I don't like them but am not too sure whether I would actually consider them as "cruel".
Tough call as I can't bear the sound of a windsucker! I had a cribber at my yard for a short time in the UK - owner put a large (non-poisonous) log in horse's stable and horse was content with his log and ceased from eating my stables!!
I didn't vote as wasn't really sure if there was an option for how I think about collars. I don't like them but am not too sure whether I would actually consider them as "cruel".
kayleigh_and_rocky
Well-Known Member
Actually a psychologist came to our yard to study one of ria's horses that does it, and he agreed it is a stereotypy and that although it may start because of a problem (boredom, anxiety, stomache ulcers) the horse then gets addicted to it and continues. He likened it to an alcoholic. Def the case with ria's one!
horsegirl
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Latest Research
They gave the horse 6 Rennie tablets after his feed and his wind sucking decreased by 200%. The results were amazing albeit in just a one horse trial.
[/ QUOTE ]
200%?? How does that work then? I find it difficult to trust the findings of anyone who quotes a reduction of 200%.
Latest Research
They gave the horse 6 Rennie tablets after his feed and his wind sucking decreased by 200%. The results were amazing albeit in just a one horse trial.
[/ QUOTE ]
200%?? How does that work then? I find it difficult to trust the findings of anyone who quotes a reduction of 200%.
no_no_nanette
Well-Known Member
We have 7 year old ex-racehorse (sprinter), so he would have been raced from age of 2, who windsucked all the time when we first got him. We tried everything, Settelex, ad lib hay, lots of turnout (wasn't used to it, got very anxous after a while in the field, windsucked on anything he possibly could ...) I used a collar eventually with real reluctance, but thinking it was the least worst option for my particular horse. He wears it all the time he's in the stable, and he seems not to mind it at all, is much less anxious (worry lines above eye have disappeared), has gained weight, and is generally much more chilled. I think there is a particular issue with racehorses - the way they are weaned/broken before anything like fully mature/taken on to racetrack as adolescents/institutionalised yard regime, often high protein diets and little turnout - in fact, about as designed as you can get to give rise to probs like windsucking and gastric ulcers .... By the time we got our chap the behaviour was so deeply embedded that I believe it would have been impossible to have weaned him off it, and in his case the collar does seem to have worked without causing him additional anxiety - in fact, the reverse. But I would always see it as the last - not the first - resort with a windsucker/cribber. Good luck!
Laafet
Well-Known Member
The pyschologist kayleigh was talking about is heavily involved in the whole equine ethology thing and is an amazing man to speak to. He believed that cribbing/windsucking is very much different to weaving etc and that is why he was on the yard. C/W horses tend to be more impulsive in their behaviours in a similar way to a true drug addict. They seem to have genetic switch that in horses exhibiting this behaviour can be switch on be stressful scenarios - ie the racing environment. If it was just the environment that made the horses C/W then all racehorses/dressage horses would do it.
As for my little C/Wer, I have tried turning him out (only good if there is electric tapes on top of the fence posts, settlers, science diet, more work, more hay, everything. The best thing that reduced the incidence of cribbing was turn out and a play ball that he was obsessed with. I tried a collar but he still tried to C/W and then in his frustration at not being able to carry out the full act he would then box walk.
I believe that like rufus that my horse is compulsive C/W and like an OCD it can be managed but to prevent it fully is cruel.
I also live about my horse's stable and it does annoy the hell out me but thats him and I love him for who he is
As for my little C/Wer, I have tried turning him out (only good if there is electric tapes on top of the fence posts, settlers, science diet, more work, more hay, everything. The best thing that reduced the incidence of cribbing was turn out and a play ball that he was obsessed with. I tried a collar but he still tried to C/W and then in his frustration at not being able to carry out the full act he would then box walk.
I believe that like rufus that my horse is compulsive C/W and like an OCD it can be managed but to prevent it fully is cruel.
I also live about my horse's stable and it does annoy the hell out me but thats him and I love him for who he is
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
Id say yes. I tried a miracle collar on one of mine who did it and she hated it. I had to make it so tight for it to work, I felt awful leaving it on. So I promptly took it off and never used it again (have one for sale if anyone wants it!!).
They cant be fixed of it (unless the have ulcers but even then itd probably be a habit!). Turning out 24/7 helps a lot and giving them lots of hay and friends to play with etc. helps. Basically trying to keep the horse stress free.
Other than the collar, I think the cruelest thing is to stable them.
They cant be fixed of it (unless the have ulcers but even then itd probably be a habit!). Turning out 24/7 helps a lot and giving them lots of hay and friends to play with etc. helps. Basically trying to keep the horse stress free.
Other than the collar, I think the cruelest thing is to stable them.
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
Woah what a lot of replies and all very interesting points thank you people. Boss
Had another colic incident with my horse today- stupidly let him have some grass and a apple .Also took his collar off today. So alltogether that led to him colicking again. He is categorically now intolerant to almost everything- he can NOT have any grass, cereals,nuts fruit,etc. Only hay and alfa oil now.
Vet swears that the windsucking MUST be controlled as she is most adamant that it is contrubuting towards the colic.. have to say that I thought that this was an old wives tale as a few years back, I had two worse windsuckers and not once did they colic in 4 years.But they were not ex-racehorses like this one is.
So all surfaces in his stable are going to be removed or covered in crib-box, and he is going to have a pen with electric fencing to be turned out in. If he is still doing it, then he has to have the collar on
so sad to add to the horse's suffering but have no choice with this one.
So. Another victim of the flat racing industry. Why oh why!
TBH I'm surpirsed that my horse survived three years in a racing stable!
Had another colic incident with my horse today- stupidly let him have some grass and a apple .Also took his collar off today. So alltogether that led to him colicking again. He is categorically now intolerant to almost everything- he can NOT have any grass, cereals,nuts fruit,etc. Only hay and alfa oil now.
Vet swears that the windsucking MUST be controlled as she is most adamant that it is contrubuting towards the colic.. have to say that I thought that this was an old wives tale as a few years back, I had two worse windsuckers and not once did they colic in 4 years.But they were not ex-racehorses like this one is.
So all surfaces in his stable are going to be removed or covered in crib-box, and he is going to have a pen with electric fencing to be turned out in. If he is still doing it, then he has to have the collar on
So. Another victim of the flat racing industry. Why oh why!
TBH I'm surpirsed that my horse survived three years in a racing stable!
pixie
Well-Known Member
have you tried coligone?
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
Yes- it does help- helped a LOT over the winter. But he is in a bad shape at the moment.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
OK this situation is getting very out of hand and I can imagine that you are at your wits end
Are you on the powder or the liquid and how much are you feeding?
How soon is he showing distress after eating fructons and sugar?
Is he usually up tight or distressed in the stable or field? Is he a worrier?
Are you on the powder or the liquid and how much are you feeding?
How soon is he showing distress after eating fructons and sugar?
Is he usually up tight or distressed in the stable or field? Is he a worrier?
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
I think collars are sometimes a necessary evil. PF reeeeally seems ok with hers on (during the day) and my vet was also absolutely adamant that her windsucking (cribbing, in fact) contributed to her colic (I'd always thought this was bollox too!)
She used to be out 24/7 in the UK with no collar, and it didn't stop her, but nor did any of my other horses 'catch it' not even her baby.
She used to be out 24/7 in the UK with no collar, and it didn't stop her, but nor did any of my other horses 'catch it' not even her baby.