does noel fitzpatrick do surgeries on horses? i have only ever seen small animal surgeries on his show, does anyone know just out curiosity?

[gunnergundog]

your everyday vet going we can do y, but actually it's cruel/unfair/quality of life won't be what it was.

Not my experience in this day of corporate owned practices where pound signs rule unfortunately. About four years back I had an argument with a young vet at the practice I had been at for many many years which had recently been bought out. I had phoned up to have a 13.5 year bitch PTS; she had two conditions, both of which could be treated but not concurrently due to the differing medications not interacting appropriately so she was continually suffering from one thing or the other. She had had enough and was becoming aggressive to administer meds to....this was so not her. The young vet who had the brief to PTS (senior vet, my vet of choice was on hols) refused to do the deed and insisted on getting another vet in to the consultation when I declined to accept her 'oh but we could do x y z'. It took over 45 mins waiting for the availability of the other vet, their reading the case history and then doing the deed. I don't need such stress at my age. I had done this previously, but now any dog that I feel needs to be PTS is shot.

 

[suestowford]

He lost me when he performed spinal surgery on a 9 year old Great Dane , Danes have a short life span anyway so to put her through that was not ethical by him or the owners IMO

Someone I know had two Great Danes, both of those celebrated their 11th birthdays. I know that's unusual, they can have much shorter lives, but a grand old age is possible for a giant breed. One of her dogs had a toe amputated when she was 9, and recovered from it well. Although it was quite a challenge keeping the dog's mouth away from her foot post-surgery!

 

[paddy555]

Not my experience in this day of corporate owned practices where pound signs rule unfortunately. About four years back I had an argument with a young vet at the practice I had been at for many many years which had recently been bought out. I had phoned up to have a 13.5 year bitch PTS; she had two conditions, both of which could be treated but not concurrently due to the differing medications not interacting appropriately so she was continually suffering from one thing or the other. She had had enough and was becoming aggressive to administer meds to....this was so not her. The young vet who had the brief to PTS (senior vet, my vet of choice was on hols) refused to do the deed and insisted on getting another vet in to the consultation when I declined to accept her 'oh but we could do x y z'. It took over 45 mins waiting for the availability of the other vet, their reading the case history and then doing the deed. I don't need such stress at my age. I had done this previously, but now any dog that I feel needs to be PTS is shot.

nothing to do with Fitzpatrick but in the bit I have highlighted what would have happened or what would/could the vet have said if you had replied I don't have the money or insurance to pay? Just curious as I have had vets talk to me about the problems where they had to PTS because client's couldn't pay.

 

[splashgirl45]

Someone I know had two Great Danes, both of those celebrated their 11th birthdays. I know that's unusual, they can have much shorter lives, but a grand old age is possible for a giant breed. One of her dogs had a toe amputated when she was 9, and recovered from it well. Although it was quite a challenge keeping the dog's mouth away from her foot post-surgery!

I don’t doubt that some Dane’s will make older bones but it was the fact it was spine surgery because she was paralysed at her back end when they bought her to the surgery
Removing a toe or similar I wouldn’t have felt it was wrong for a 9 year old

 

[gunnergundog]

nothing to do with Fitzpatrick but in the bit I have highlighted what would have happened or what would/could the vet have said if you had replied I don't have the money or insurance to pay? Just curious as I have had vets talk to me about the problems where they had to PTS because client's couldn't pay.

I was perfectly able to pay, had I so chosen.

The relevance to Fitzpatrick is that my story too is a case of just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
Also, perhaps the generational difference? The senior vet is a pragmatic gent who, like me, values quality of life over quantity.

I deemed that the dog had had enough over years of handling one issue and then the other on top for a few months that meant she had to be suffering from one or the other as they couldn't be treated concurrently.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

The surgeries I really don't agree with are the bone salvage ones where they replace the cancerous part of a leg bone with an implant. I would never do this because as Noel has explained before now, the cancer cells will have spread before the animal is in pain so they are still going to die within months. Just not worth the stress to the dog and the cost to the owner/insurance company.

 

[AmyMay]

The surgeries I really don't agree with are the bone salvage ones where they replace the cancerous part of a leg bone with an implant. I would never do this because as Noel has explained before now, the cancer cells will have spread before the animal is in pain so they are still going to die within months. Just not worth the stress to the dog and the cost to the owner/insurance company.

This was the primary reason we opted to put Jack to sleep, rather than amputate his leg on initial discussion with our consultant. X-rays subsequently showed he had cancer in his lungs too. So surgery would have been pointless regardless.

 

[paddy555]

I was perfectly able to pay, had I so chosen.

The relevance to Fitzpatrick is that my story too is a case of just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
Also, perhaps the generational difference? The senior vet is a pragmatic gent who, like me, values quality of life over quantity.

I deemed that the dog had had enough over years of handling one issue and then the other on top for a few months that meant she had to be suffering from one or the other as they couldn't be treated concurrently.

I'm sorry I must have expressed that badly. I wasn't questioning if you could pay but more if someone was in this position of wanting PTS and vet saying treatment was possible saying I can't pay would mean they had to agree to PTS immediately.

 

[TwyfordM]

Have pretty recent experience of taking my dog there (June) and all the staff and Noel himself were lovely.

He did offer surgery, with a reasonable chance of a decent outcome and had Pip been younger and not had the other complications. I probably would have jumped at the chance for a pioneering surgery to save him and give him a good quality of life.

We opted to PTS, you could see the frustration in his face, he was on a mission to save this dog. But from our view, poor pup has been through enough.

As soon as he understood our reasoning, he was kind, sympathetic and did the injection himself making sure pips final moments were out on the grass having a cuddle with his family in the sunshine.

I think that overwhelming urge of I can fix this takes over and a lot of owners go along with it in desperation to not loose their beloved pets.

Definitely dances on the line between ethical and unethical. But I think to push the boundaries of veterinary medicine someone has to

 

[maisie06]

Not my experience in this day of corporate owned practices where pound signs rule unfortunately. About four years back I had an argument with a young vet at the practice I had been at for many many years which had recently been bought out. I had phoned up to have a 13.5 year bitch PTS; she had two conditions, both of which could be treated but not concurrently due to the differing medications not interacting appropriately so she was continually suffering from one thing or the other. She had had enough and was becoming aggressive to administer meds to....this was so not her. The young vet who had the brief to PTS (senior vet, my vet of choice was on hols) refused to do the deed and insisted on getting another vet in to the consultation when I declined to accept her 'oh but we could do x y z'. It took over 45 mins waiting for the availability of the other vet, their reading the case history and then doing the deed. I don't need such stress at my age. I had done this previously, but now any dog that I feel needs to be PTS is shot.

I had a similar experience, I rang the vet and asked the receptionist for a PTS appointment, dog was 16 and back legs had given up, it was time as any dog owner will know. I was told by the receptionist that "Thats a decision for the vet not you" I won't tell you what I said as I would get banned from the forum! I rang another practice, explained the situation and they were brilliant. needless to say I registered with them and sent a complaint to the last practice..

 

[Cortez]

I had a similar experience, I rang the vet and asked the receptionist for a PTS appointment, dog was 16 and back legs had given up, it was time as any dog owner will know. I was told by the receptionist that "Thats a decision for the vet not you" I won't tell you what I said as I would get banned from the forum! I rang another practice, explained the situation and they were brilliant. needless to say I registered with them and sent a complaint to the last practice..

Wow. I can't believe the receptionist said that! I would actually report to the veterinary council if that was said to me.

 

[misst]

I know he doesn't work with horses
I found his work in South Africa on a rhino and other wild animals shocking. But he saved my jrt twice. Once with no surgery just high dose steroids and years and years later with major surgery for a benign mouth tumour that my own excellent vet had been unable to excise fully.

I didnt want an 11yo jrt to have such major surgery initially but I was given all the information and possible outcomes and research papers on it to read. No pressure was applied . She had the surgery and was home 2 days later stealing chicken feet off her brother and acting as if she had not had 6 teeth and a piece of bone removed along with skin grafting to the deficit.
We had 2 perfect years until she developed dementia .
He's an odd bod and I understand the arguments that animals are used for research but not allowed to benefit from it. I don't believe you should always treat just because it's possible but Tilly did so well and Moti had a big knee op aged 2 very successfully. I would happily use them again in the right circumstances.
On a personal level I think he is a damaged human who is depressed and angry a lot of the time.

 

[meggymoo]

I had a similar experience, I rang the vet and asked the receptionist for a PTS appointment, dog was 16 and back legs had given up, it was time as any dog owner will know. I was told by the receptionist that "Thats a decision for the vet not you" I won't tell you what I said as I would get banned from the forum! I rang another practice, explained the situation and they were brilliant. needless to say I registered with them and sent a complaint to the last practice..

Nothing like making a horrid time even worse. When I made the call for our old boy I just rang the surgery and told them it was time. They gave me an appointment with “my” vet for the next morning. Last appointment of the morning so he could give us all the time we needed and he wasn’t rushing on to the next case. He had been treating him for arthritis for years, his Cartrofen injections were getting closer together and he agreed with us that it was his time. He didn’t even examine him as he knew him inside out and said it would serve no purpose to pull him around. The compassion both he and the rest of his staff showed us that day will never be forgotten.

 

[SilverLinings]

This was the primary reason we opted to put Jack to sleep, rather than amputate his leg on initial discussion with our consultant. X-rays subsequently showed he had cancer in his lungs too. So surgery would have been pointless regardless.

@Amymay I feel that I should clarify that I 'liked' your post in support of your prioritising of Jack's welfare up to the end, not because I like what happened to either of you. It was clear that you put his needs first, even though you didn't want to loose him and had only had him for a short time.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I will preface this by saying that I also don't agree that a lot of his procedures are ethical, and I definitely sway towards pragmatic when a PTS decision is considered, but I also think some of the comments on this thread are unnecessary. I really don't think commenting on his general character outside of his work, or his struggles with mainstream education whilst knowing he is really quite neurodiverse has any bearing on the conversation at all.

As someone who is also neurodiverse, I understand how it feels to be hyper focused or develop a great interest in something and doing great research into it, and how this can then cloud your judgement and/or kick your brain into thinking into the depths of what you know to figure out a solution to x, y or z rather than stopping to consider the practicalities of the situation, it's how I have ended up spending £xx,xxx on things before realising they are ultimately unrealistic, or a flash in the pan in terms of interest. Presumably this is exactly why he employs an ethics committee. You forget also that he is surrounded by owners that are desperate for him to find the solutions he has for them, and will be egging him on to do these procedures, not to mention the TV crews and his shareholders (who are in it for the money), they carry as much blame as he does. It just doesn't sit well with me to lambast someone who has done as much as he has for exploratory surgery, and who really only does it through a love of animals and a deep caring for the owners to which he can provide some hope.

Yes the line has been crossed, but 90% of the treatments your pets will have received were considered emerging, risky, 'out there' stuff at some point in time.

 

[gunnergundog]

I'm sorry I must have expressed that badly.

No problem.

 

[splashgirl45]

I had a similar experience, I rang the vet and asked the receptionist for a PTS appointment, dog was 16 and back legs had given up, it was time as any dog owner will know. I was told by the receptionist that "Thats a decision for the vet not you" I won't tell you what I said as I would get banned from the forum! I rang another practice, explained the situation and they were brilliant. needless to say I registered with them and sent a complaint to the last practice..

I phoned when my collies back legs had given up she was almost 15, I asked for my favourite vet to come to my house the next day and although he was leaving early he said he would come. Unfortunately she was very unsettled during the evening so I phoned and took her to the emergency vet who just got me to sign the consent form , there was no discussion to put me off and all was done quickly and with kindness. My vet phoned me the next morning to say he was sorry for my loss . I really don’t want him to retire while I’ve still got dogs

 

[paddy555]

I will preface this by saying that I also don't agree that a lot of his procedures are ethical, and I definitely sway towards pragmatic when a PTS decision is considered, but I also think some of the comments on this thread are unnecessary. I really don't think commenting on his general character outside of his work, or his struggles with mainstream education whilst knowing he is really quite neurodiverse has any bearing on the conversation at all.

As someone who is also neurodiverse, I understand how it feels to be hyper focused or develop a great interest in something and doing great research into it, and how this can then cloud your judgement and/or kick your brain into thinking into the depths of what you know to figure out a solution to x, y or z rather than stopping to consider the practicalities of the situation, it's how I have ended up spending £xx,xxx on things before realising they are ultimately unrealistic, or a flash in the pan in terms of interest. Presumably this is exactly why he employs an ethics committee. You forget also that he is surrounded by owners that are desperate for him to find the solutions he has for them, and will be egging him on to do these procedures, not to mention the TV crews and his shareholders (who are in it for the money), they carry as much blame as he does. It just doesn't sit well with me to lambast someone who has done as much as he has for exploratory surgery, and who really only does it through a love of animals and a deep caring for the owners to which he can provide some hope.

Yes the line has been crossed, but 90% of the treatments your pets will have received were considered emerging, risky, 'out there' stuff at some point in time.

I disagree. I have watched him a few times on the box, I didn't really take to him, sort of wondered about him (as a vet)
I don't see he is being lambasted for being ND. In fact I find it very helpful to know that as I now reconsider him in a different light and understand why he is so hyper focussed, great interest etc etc.

That would influence my decision if I ever had to consider using him. ie. was he pushing too much or was it ethical.

I know my own small animal vet very very well. That gives me a very good understanding of what he really thinks and means when giving life and death advice. The practice he works for were wonderful when my bitch had cancer of the jaw. Rang to PTS, a couple of days later dog running round with the tractor and rang to un PTS. Probably ended up doing that about 3 times. Offered to pay for the cancelled appointments but they were happy just to change them. Vet came to the house to PTS. Wonderful service.

a receptionist telling me who was going to decide if my dog was PTS would not have gone down well.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I disagree. I have watched him a few times on the box, I didn't really take to him, sort of wondered about him (as a vet)
I don't see he is being lambasted for being ND. In fact I find it very helpful to know that as I now reconsider him in a different light and understand why he is so hyper focussed, great interest etc etc.

That would influence my decision if I ever had to consider using him. ie. was he pushing too much or was it ethical.

I know my own small animal vet very very well. That gives me a very good understanding of what he really thinks and means when giving life and death advice. The practice he works for were wonderful when my bitch had cancer of the jaw. Rang to PTS, a couple of days later dog running round with the tractor and rang to un PTS. Probably ended up doing that about 3 times. Offered to pay for the cancelled appointments but they were happy just to change them. Vet came to the house to PTS. Wonderful service.

a receptionist telling me who was going to decide if my dog was PTS would not have gone down well.

An important distinction is that I said he was being generally lambasted in this thread, and my separate point was that a comment about him struggling in vet school when we know he is ND I thought was unecessary. I didn't say he was being lambasted for being ND, I agree that it's relevant when trying to understand his viewpoint.

I am unsure what part of my post however you disagree with? You have agreed that some of his work is unethical, that you understand how his ND affects his work and decision making and that you would be reluctant to use him as your vet - all of which I have also said in my post. Not trying to argue with you, just understand your comment.

 

[ester]

He’s been lambasted about the very things that make him ND. There’s a lot of ND vets

 

[paddy555]

An important distinction is that I said he was being generally lambasted in this thread, and my separate point was that a comment about him struggling in vet school when we know he is ND I thought was unecessary. I didn't say he was being lambasted for being ND, I agree that it's relevant when trying to understand his viewpoint.

I am unsure what part of my post however you disagree with? You have agreed that some of his work is unethical, that you understand how his ND affects his work and decision making and that you would be reluctant to use him as your vet - all of which I have also said in my post. Not trying to argue with you, just understand your comment.

I was talking only about being lambasted in this thread.
I don't think I would be reluctant to use him, simply I would find it helpful to know so I could understand his viewpoint better.

but I also think some of the comments on this thread are unnecessary. I really don't think commenting on his general character outside of his work, or his struggles with mainstream education whilst knowing he is really quite neurodiverse has any bearing on the conversation at all.

that was the bit I disagree with. I found the comments helpful and gave greater insight.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It hadn’t occurred to me that he might be neurodiverse, so I found those comments illuminating in being able to understand why he does what he does.

I still think that too much of what he does is deeply unethical and not in the animal’s best interests, and I would never take a animal to him, but at least I have more idea about him and why he believes that he is doing the right thing. Which as another poster pointed out, makes what he offers to his clients all the more dangerous.

 

[Cortez]

It hadn’t occurred to me that he might be neurodiverse, so I found those comments illuminating in being able to understand why he does what he does.

I still think that too much of what he does is deeply unethical and not in the animal’s best interests, and I would never take a animal to him, but at least I have more idea about him and why he believes that he is doing the right thing. Which as another poster pointed out, makes what he offers to his clients all the more dangerous.

You make it sound as if every other operation is an ethical nightmare, whereas I bet there are thousands of successful procedures with good outcomes. No surgeon has 100% success, some procedures will not work or have unexpected negative side effects, some should not be attempted at all, certainly, but these will be very much in the minority. Why on earth would you not take an animal with a correctable defect to someone who has a proven track record of remarkable success? If you disagree with a proposed procedure there is no compunction to continue with that course of action, surely?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I will not deal with someone whose ethics I disagree with.

I come from a family of medics. This is very important to me.

I prefer to deal with local and more pragmatic vets.

Other people can go to Fitzpatrick's - that’s fine. Not me, though.

 

[Rowreach]

An important distinction is that I said he was being generally lambasted in this thread, and my separate point was that a comment about him struggling in vet school when we know he is ND I thought was unecessary. I didn't say he was being lambasted for being ND, I agree that it's relevant when trying to understand his viewpoint.

I am unsure what part of my post however you disagree with? You have agreed that some of his work is unethical, that you understand how his ND affects his work and decision making and that you would be reluctant to use him as your vet - all of which I have also said in my post. Not trying to argue with you, just understand your comment.

Well I have to come back on this point, since it was my comment you are referring to, near the start of the thread, and my point was actually that he had done extremely well in his career considering he struggled during his studies. Nowhere did I relate this to his neuro-divergence or lambast him in any way, so if you took my comment that way I suggest you re-read it within that context rather than assuming my intentions were otherwise.

 

[ester]

There was a clip the other day where his suggested (and successful) was significantly less involved than what the owners had been advised previously so it’s not a case of ‘only him’. By definition if you’re rocking up at a major referral centre your issue isn’t a simple one to fix and as long as owners are given sufficient information on pros and cons of the options I’ve no issue with it, even if I might make a different decision.

 

[Cortez]

I will not deal with someone whose ethics I disagree with.

I come from a family of medics. This is very important to me.

I prefer to deal with local and more pragmatic vets.

Goodness, you must have an ever-diminishing circle of available tradespeople.....I wouldn't have many of the more outré procedures performed on my animals either, BTW, but that's more to do with cost and potentially painful/traumatic recovery. Same reasons I wouldn't ever have a colic operated upon.

 

[Winters100]

I will not deal with someone whose ethics I disagree with.

I come from a family of medics. This is very important to me.

I prefer to deal with local and more pragmatic vets.

Other people can go to Fitzpatrick's - that’s fine. Not me, though.

The thing is though that if an animal needs a major surgery then a local vet does not have the same level of equipment to help the surgeon - for example the ability to use MRI or CTs. You therefore need to use a large practice and, unless they happen to be a public figure as in this case, you will have no idea of their ethics. For me skill, experience and facilities are far more important, because I would anyway make my own decision as to whether any proposed treatment was ethical. If the surgery requires hospital stay your choice is similarly limited, because the gold standard would be to have a vet there working, not just on call in case of a dire emergency. In my case I drove my dog something like 6 or 7 times for 2 surgeries and the check ups, each time around 2000 km round trip, because I wanted him to be operated in a top facility by someone who had huge experience. For us the result was well worth it, and I believe that having my animal operated by someone less experienced, or with less facilities, just because of a personal opinion, would be short changing my animal.