Does the KC Mating Inbreeding Coefficient Prediction reallywork?

[Patchworkpony]

Does the Kennel Club Mating Inbreeding Coefficient Prediction really work? I sometimes put in the breeding for a puppy and on paper it wouldn't look inbred and yet the KC calculator disagrees. For example I put in the breeding of a whippet puppy today and it showed a prediction of 13.5% and yet nowhere on it's pedigree, going back as far as great great grand parents, does it show any two relatives with the same name. A 12.5% is meant to represent grandfather on granddaughter and yet the breeding laid out in front of me shows NO close relationship between any dog or bitch mating going back 3 generations. It doesn't make sense to me at all. If that breeding was a native pony I would have said there was no immediate line breeding. ? I keep turning down puppies because of checking the KC Inbreeding Coefficient Prediction but now I am beginning to wonder if the KC got it wrong. Expert opinions please.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Certainly in my breed it is inaccurate as it doesn't hold information for dogs registered abroad, so very few breeders use it. In my view it is far better to do as you are doing and research pedigrees, if you like the look of a pup and the pedigree isn't closely in bred and has health tests for several generations (though I don't think whippets have many health tests listed?) then I would ignore the KC Coefficient .

 

[Patchworkpony]

Certainly in my breed it is inaccurate as it doesn't hold information for dogs registered abroad, so very few breeders use it. In my view it is far better to do as you are doing and research pedigrees, if you like the look of a pup and the pedigree isn't closely in bred and has health tests for several generations (though I don't think whippets have many health tests listed?) then I would ignore the KC Coefficient .

Thanks so much for that. What would you call closely in bred in dogs - I'm getting seriously confused now and think I may have lost a good puppy by being too careful. It's a minefield! I much prefer buying ponies.

 

[MurphysMinder]

That is a difficult one to answer, there a lots of things to factor in, but again in GSDs, the same dog appearing more than once as great grandfather wouldn't bother me, as long as it was a good dog with good health tests. In my other breed, Lancashire Heeler, you find closer line breeding as they are a rare breed with limited gene pool, although things are slowly improving. I do always try and find some lines in common further back in the pedigree, and sometimes people will breed closer to establish type.

 

[Patchworkpony]

That is a difficult one to answer, there a lots of things to factor in, but again in GSDs, the same dog appearing more than once as great grandfather wouldn't bother me, as long as it was a good dog with good health tests. In my other breed, Lancashire Heeler, you find closer line breeding as they are a rare breed with limited gene pool, although things are slowly improving. I do always try and find some lines in common further back in the pedigree, and sometimes people will breed closer to establish type.

Thanks MM. This makes for grim reading - http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/coi-faqs-understanding-the-coefficient-of-inbreeding

 

[Alec Swan]

A couple of years ago I 'phoned the KC and asked to speak with someone who could explain to me, a layman, exactly how the BCs worked, and what might be the result of ignoring them. I was put through to the lady who I was assured was the very one who understood it all but she wasn't able to answer any question, clearly. All that she would reply was to the effect that she wasn't too sure or that it was still a matter of research.

I'm prepared to believe that the formulas may apply to some breeds, those perhaps with minuscule gene pools, but for the breeds which aren't numerically under threat, my honest view is that the figures, though clearly present, are an irrelevance. I've bred a few litters of Working Cockers over the last few years, NO direct parent to young or even parent dog to grandparent pup. I've used dogs which have a BC of in excess of 20% and produced pups in excess of that and the results have been as I would have expected and without any health testing, not a pup that I know of which has been in any way health inhibited. I would only ever breed from healthy working stock and the results, to date anyway, have always been as I've hoped for.

Line breeding would have us use a stud dog on a bitch which has them share the grandparent on the sire's side with the great grand parent on the dam's side. That will immediately, it seems to me, launch the BC up into the stratosphere, but I believe that where the system falls down is that it fails to take in to account all the other lines of parentage, going back through generations.

Perhaps I'm as certain of my facts, and as right about them as was the lady from the KC!

OP, in yours shoes, and if you buy a pup, the best indicator will be the parents, in my view and the further you dig into the research, then the less likely that you'll be to ever actually find what you want!

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

…. has them share the grandparent on the sire's side with the great grand parent on the dam's side. ….

Alec.

My apologies, that should have read; **The grand-sire on the sire's would be the same dog as the great-grandsire on the dam's side.** That's about it, I think!

Alec.

 

[Patchworkpony]

A couple of years ago I 'phoned the KC and asked to speak with someone who could explain to me, a layman, exactly how the BCs worked, and what might be the result of ignoring them. I was put through to the lady who I was assured was the very one who understood it all but she wasn't able to answer any question, clearly. All that she would reply was to the effect that she wasn't too sure or that it was still a matter of research.

I'm prepared to believe that the formulas may apply to some breeds, those perhaps with minuscule gene pools, but for the breeds which aren't numerically under threat, my honest view is that the figures, though clearly present, are an irrelevance. I've bred a few litters of Working Cockers over the last few years, NO direct parent to young or even parent dog to grandparent pup. I've used dogs which have a BC of in excess of 20% and produced pups in excess of that and the results have been as I would have expected and without any health testing, not a pup that I know of which has been in any way health inhibited. I would only ever breed from healthy working stock and the results, to date anyway, have always been as I've hoped for.

Line breeding would have us use a stud dog on a bitch which has them share the grandparent on the sire's side with the great grand parent on the dam's side. That will immediately, it seems to me, launch the BC up into the stratosphere, but I believe that where the system falls down is that it fails to take in to account all the other lines of parentage, going back through generations.

Perhaps I'm as certain of my facts, and as right about them as was the lady from the KC!

OP, in yours shoes, and if you buy a pup, the best indicator will be the parents, in my view and the further you dig into the research, then the less likely that you'll be to ever actually find what you want!

Alec.

Thanks so much for replying Alec. You are right it is all very confusing but what I have read elsewhere indicates that any dog with a BC of 5% upwards is not so long lived, is more sensitive/allergic and has a less robust immune system etc. Some of the pups I have been offered are 27% - it just feels such a risk to take; but I do know in the WC's the gene pool it pretty small. Oh what to do, what to do!!!

 

[Alec Swan]

I went to a Cocker Field Trial a couple of years ago and saw a young golden coloured dog, the property of a leading Trialler. The dog was tiny and I thought that he was about six months old. What got my attention though was his near perfect conformation and that for such a young dog, he looked so advanced. I asked the dog's age and I was told that he was two years old!!

I'd be quite prepared to accept that linear breeding or those dogs which come from generations of high indexed BC parentage are probably 'shrinking', if that's the right word. If I'm right, then I don't believe that it's doing the breed any good at all. The dog which I saw would be highly unlikely to carry a cock pheasant correctly, I'd have thought, and it is perhaps the downside. That said, I had a lovely little bitch, she only weighed 9 kilos and she could carry dead game, with ease.

As to longevity, I have a line bred bitch here, she's eight years old, full of life, she's had 4 litters of pups and she has Field Trial Champions as both parents, all four grand parents and fifteen of the sixteen great-grandparents. She's also a reasonable size and carries shot game with ease. All my dogs carry a BC figure in excess of 20% and don't seem to have any health problems size problems or concerns over their working lives.

In truth Patch, I don't know and I'm not too sure that anyone else does, either! It must surely be the case that any purpose bred dogs which have a degree of in-breeding will have some sort of percentage figures attached, though just how relevant they are, again I'm not sure.

Sorry if I'm not much help. I ignore the BC figures, 'tis up to you whether you follow suit.

Alec.

 

[Patchworkpony]

I went to a Cocker Field Trial a couple of years ago and saw a young golden coloured dog, the property of a leading Trialler. The dog was tiny and I thought that he was about six months old. What got my attention though was his near perfect conformation and that for such a young dog, he looked so advanced. I asked the dog's age and I was told that he was two years old!!

I'd be quite prepared to accept that linear breeding or those dogs which come from generations of high indexed BC parentage are probably 'shrinking', if that's the right word. If I'm right, then I don't believe that it's doing the breed any good at all. The dog which I saw would be highly unlikely to carry a cock pheasant correctly, I'd have thought, and it is perhaps the downside. That said, I had a lovely little bitch, she only weighed 9 kilos and she could carry dead game, with ease.

As to longevity, I have a line bred bitch here, she's eight years old, full of life, she's had 4 litters of pups and she has Field Trial Champions as both parents, all four grand parents and fifteen of the sixteen great-grandparents. She's also a reasonable size and carries shot game with ease. All my dogs carry a BC figure in excess of 20% and don't seem to have any health problems size problems or concerns over their working lives.

In truth Patch, I don't know and I'm not too sure that anyone else does, either! It must surely be the case that any purpose bred dogs which have a degree of in-breeding will have some sort of percentage figures attached, though just how relevant they are, again I'm not sure.

Sorry if I'm not much help. I ignore the BC figures, 'tis up to you whether you follow suit.

Alec.

Alec you have in fact been a tremendous help - thank you. I've put my name down for a pup due in May from well bred parents but NOTHING related in the breeding on either side as far back as gg grandparents - see I took note of what you said. The BC will be 12.5 % for pups which isn't too bad and BOTH sets of parents are fully health tested including AMS. Dog and bitch are both biddable natures so I am hopeful. Bitch is black, dog is golden so I should get one of my favourite colours. Breeder is also a dog trainer so will help me pick out a soft rather than a hard pup. I'm even daring to feel excited now. Please understand that I have always devoured anything you have to say and I have learned so much from your knowledge, so again thank you for bothering to put up your own experiences.

 

[Trysori37]

The KC Mate Select programme only takes into account a COI based on 5 generations. You really should use 10 generations for a more accurate %. Also any imports in the ancestry do not have their maternal or paternal ancestry recorded in the KC database so if you have say a dog who's sire is an import or foreign male abroad it only shows that male, nothing of it's pedigree. That can be very misleading, particularly if the import / foreign ancestor actually does have a fair bit of British registered blood behind it that still will not show up. Yet it could be enough to whoever it was mated to in the UK to be considered a close line breeding for the resulting offspring you want the COI on. But because the foreign ancestry has basically a 0% COI according to Mate Select it completely changes the COI of a British born dog.