Does the way that we keep horses...

[Jackson]

Make them more susceptable to injury/illness/pain?

It seems like a silly statement/question, and I know that the answer is yes.. becasue we don't always do it right, no matter how hard we try (or not, in some cases.).

But at the moment I seem to be coming accross so many horses that have gone lame or have been overworked or are old and riddled with arthritis and have developed COPD and almost everyone I know has a horse that has had back problems at some point...

It's silly... Lots of horses live on much longer than they would if they were left in a hypothetical herd to roam and graze as they wished (for a start, the only predators ours have to worry about are the horse eating tesco bags that chase you out of the yard and the occasional anomalous big cat) but I can't help but wonder every time I get on my horse if I'm doing unintentional damage or putting strain somewhere or.. setting him up for a future of over-work-induced arthritis.. or something like that...

Sorry for the ramblings. My horse loves his work and I love riding and being with him, but I needed to get that off of my chest Maybe it stems from the fact that we are essentially taking advantage of their trainability and need for a 'leader' that I feel guilty about Or maybe I read too much depressing stuff on HHO.

 

[mightymammoth]

Make them more susceptable to injury/illness/pain?

It seems like a silly statement/question, and I know that the answer is yes.. becasue we don't always do it right, no matter how hard we try (or not, in some cases.).

But at the moment I seem to be coming accross so many horses that have gone lame or have been overworked or are old and riddled with arthritis and have developed COPD and almost everyone I know has a horse that has had back problems at some point...

It's silly... Lots of horses live on much longer than they would if they were left in a hypothetical herd to roam and graze as they wished (for a start, the only predators ours have to worry about are the horse eating tesco bags that chase you out of the yard and the occasional anomalous big cat) but I can't help but wonder every time I get on my horse if I'm doing unintentional damage or putting strain somewhere or.. setting him up for a future of over-work-induced arthritis.. or something like that...

Sorry for the ramblings. My horse loves his work and I love riding and being with him, but I needed to get that off of my chest Maybe it stems from the fact that we are essentially taking advantage of their trainability and need for a 'leader' that I feel guilty about Or maybe I read too much depressing stuff on HHO.

I worry as well that me being a sack of spuds on his back (although I try not to be!) maybe in someone hurting him.

 

[Littlelegs]

Difficult one. I think there's no clear answer really, all you can do is minimise the risk. After years of hunting & competing mine did both hind suspensories, annulars & some tiny hairline fractures after an incident in the field with some idiots with air rifles. So it could be argued that if she'd been overweight & unbroken she might have done more damage, & her fitness was to her advantage.
I think overall, yes, some people do some very silly things that have a negative effect, but most do the best they can, or so I'd hope.

 

[JFTDWS]

I'd think it has a lot more with how we keep them than riding them in many cases.

COPD - surely more relevant to look at stables and dusty environments than riding. Arthritis, also exacerbated by inactivity in stables, and the current trend toward equine obesity. Then laminitis etc - all management related. Factor in dodgy breeeding to account for congenital problems that are rarely seen in wild animals etc...

The way some people ride and work their animals might be a cause for concern - competing unfit horses, not working for weeks then doing too much, excessive riding on unsuitable surfaces etc... But they also say that correct work can bring horses sound in some conditions...

I would be inclined to look at the great ages of some of the horses being worked by sensible professionals (i.e. not those ridden into the ground / pushed too far too young) - many of Sylvia Loch's school masters are in their 20s (some with prior problems, managed by correct work), and I'm sure the same is true for many others.

 

[TicTac]

Irresponsible breeding has a lot to do with it I think. Too many people have grand ideas about breeding from ' the old mare with a bit of arthritis' and ' a bad back' etc and I also think that allergies and COPD are unfortunate side effects of todays modern husbandry.

The rest? well who knows!!!

 

[Jackson]

Thank you for your replies, Victoria I doubt that you ride like a sack of spuds, although we all do have off days That wasn't exactly what I was implying, as JFTD said, more management.

Yes JFTD, I was refering to how we keep them re. COPD And obviously there are genetic factors too.. I intended to ramble about the horse care side but went on a riding tangent You put it a bit better than me!

It is easy to say look at all of the horses working in to their 20s or late teens, however I bet that a large proportion of that generation have succombed to some sort of injury or illness by the time they reach that age...

Wow, I'm sounding like a real bunny hugger! I promise you I'm not.. Just having a mid-horse life crisis, or lack of riding is leaving me with too much time on my hands?

I think this is relevant, you don't hear of many horses passing away naturally, do you? I understand that the weak or old would be predator food if things reverted back to how they were in the very begining which would explain that point, I guess.

Another thing that puzzles me is why we graze horses on cow grazing.. with establishments like riding schools and livery yards that are perminent, why not make it more suited to horses The amount of people I know that see a field full of grass and say 'Oooh I'd love to put my horse out there'

Erm, rant over? I think I has issues!

 

[JFTDWS]

Jackson, I think we hear of very few horses passing away naturally because of their nature - their naturally tendancy (need) to hoon around in fields, coupled to the difficulties of treating major injuries (sustained in field accidents!) in such large animals, which combined with the fact that we have the option of pts for welfare reasons before they die of natural causes...

What I mean is, because of their size and nature, they are more likely to injure themselves doing "natural" things, and we pts because it's the best solution - so I think that not hearing of many natural deaths is actually a good thing.

My point about the older horses working is that riding itself can be good for horses physically (beyond keeping fit etc) if it's done properly. I would say that those horses which breakdown / die younger are either owned by riders who don't work or manage them correctly, ride in high impact sports (racing etc) or those who are just plain unlucky / screwed by their horse's genetic background or indeed a combination of the lot.

It's like many things - too many variables to make generalisations about riding being bad for horses or keeping them being bad for them - like anything, it can be done well, or not. Interesting enough debate though


eta - don't start me on grazing suitability

 

[StormyMoments]

i think also what we haveto think about is that horses arnt naturally built for carrying weight on their back, they may be big but we are sitting on a not very supported area of them which causes stress on their body... in the wild they dont have someone sittingon them for long lengths of time etc which is why i think horses do tend to get back problems at some point in their life... but also they probably changed through evolution so they are perfectly capeable of it

 

[Kaylum]

people are willing to stuff their horses full of supplements and cereals but when it comes to pasture management they spend nothing. They don't know what rye grass is or how to look after pasture or what meadow plants are good.

Posters have lashed out at me when I have asked them what's in their field which is the most important part of a horses diet.

 

[Jackson]

StormyMoments, aren't cows more suited to carrying weight on their backs than horses? Maybe we could create some sort of interspecies, genetically modified mutant cow horse that would solve the issue? I think your statement probably explains why back problems seem to occur very often.

Jackson, I think we hear of very few horses passing away naturally because of their nature - their naturally tendancy (need) to hoon around in fields, coupled to the difficulties of treating major injuries (sustained in field accidents!) in such large animals, which combined with the fact that we have the option of pts for welfare reasons before they die of natural causes...

What I mean is, because of their size and nature, they are more likely to injure themselves doing "natural" things, and we pts because it's the best solution - so I think that not hearing of many natural deaths is actually a good thing.

My point about the older horses working is that riding itself can be good for horses physically (beyond keeping fit etc) if it's done properly. I would say that those horses which breakdown / die younger are either owned by riders who don't work or manage them correctly, ride in high impact sports (racing etc) or those who are just plain unlucky / screwed by their horse's genetic background or indeed a combination of the lot.

It's like many things - too many variables to make generalisations about riding being bad for horses or keeping them being bad for them - like anything, it can be done well, or not. Interesting enough debate though


eta - don't start me on grazing suitability

That seems to be the answer to everything with horses

I horses are horses but I could argue that on some occasions the horses 'hoon' because of completely unsuitable diets and lack of excersise or turnout. (or conversely being overly fit) or even being turned out with unsuitable buddies.. That horses run around lots in their fields because they are not naturally moving from place to place as they were made to. (that's not viable, horses need to play, spook and be crazy etc and letting horses have the free run of england would be a bit crazy really) But I won't, because I have crossed the ridiculous border now, right?



What you said in red was what I was trying to say, sort of! There are a lot of people out there that do things in their daily routines with their horses.. ridden and non ridden that cause damage or suffering to their horses with/out intention.. possibly through ignorance.. or they are making the best of a situation (like using a dusty stable or feeding feed with molasses in because it's cheap and affordable) or they turn a blind eye like some people who may use some gadgets as a shortcut or because they feel their own riding isn't up to scratch and end up doing more harm than good... ramble ramble ramble.... Even stuff we think helps might not... ramble... There is a good side to all of this though, as you say. That's why we all ride/keep horses and try to do the best we can!

I don't know what we would do without the option to pts.

Kaylum and JFTD, I would love to hear what you have to say on pasture management actually

I made this post becasue recently I have felt more and more like us horse riders just suck the 'juice' out of our horses then just leave them for broken when they get old or damaged... I know that's not the case really! I, and I'm sure 99% of others on this forum do the best that they possibly can for their nags.


Sorry if that made no sense

 

[Littlelegs]

I think I know what you're getting at. Even without ignorance, our lives & horses don't always mix to the horses good.

 

[Jackson]

I think I know what you're getting at. Even without ignorance, our lives & horses don't always mix to the horses good.

Almost, pretty much! I'm glad my posts aren't too cloudy I think that's what I'm trying to say...

 

[JFTDWS]

StormyMoments, aren't cows more suited to carrying weight on their backs than horses?
I'm pretty sure the converse is actually true

I horses are horses but I could argue that on some occasions the horses 'hoon' because of completely unsuitable diets and lack of excersise or turnout. (or conversely being overly fit) or even being turned out with unsuitable buddies..

No, horses hooning around fields is surely equivalent to horses hooning round their natural habitats, outrunning predators etc. The same as wild deer hoon through forests Ofc, people who stable their horses for months then stick them out to go mad aren't helping on that score though!



What you said in red was what I was trying to say, sort of! There are a lot of people out there that do things in their daily routines with their horses.. ridden and non ridden that cause damage or suffering to their horses with/out intention.. possibly through ignorance.. or they are making the best of a situation (like using a dusty stable or feeding feed with molasses in because it's cheap and affordable) or they turn a blind eye like some people who may use some gadgets as a shortcut or because they feel their own riding isn't up to scratch and end up doing more harm than good...

That makes perfect sense. People doing things because they don't know any better or they don't care enough to find a better alternative. I'm probably going to get myself into trouble here, but you see it a lot on here - "I must move to one of two livery yards and neither offers winter turnout so it's just not an option", when the reality is they are limited to two yards because they have dictated many other factors (indoor school, less than 10 mins drive from home etc), and aren't prepared to put their horse's well being over their own convenience. People who use gadgets to force outlines because they don't know how to ride properly and want to show off in front of their mates. People who overfeed their fat horses because they are incapable of seeing the lard wobbling over its body, who turn out fat natives on unrestricted lush pasture because that's what the yard offers.

Mind you, I feed mollassed chaff, to my cob who's currently in a dusty stable with no turnout so what do I know And I hang off the side of my highland for fun...

 

[Jackson]

I'm sorry, seeing converse written in red made me think of trainers and it spoiled it for me I'm sure I read something vaguely scientific that said this.

Don't feel bad, that's nothing. (have you been stalking me?) I live 10 minutes away from my indoor school infused yard and fought hard to get turnout for my beast so he could stay there, and now.. he lives alone!

I don't know if HHO is a place where people come to tell the horse world of their misfortunes (well acually, yes I do) but I see that too.

 

[SO1]

Bearing in mind that the most common reason for people being off work is back problems I would not be surprised that working horses also get them too. Both humans and horses were not originally designed for the work that most of us do.

Horses that are not ridden and kept as nature intended probably do have a lower incidence of injury than those living in a more arftificial environment. However like people if they live long enough they are probably going to have some sort of illness that requires medical intervention.

We may hear on forums etc of more injuries or problems as people are also more educated and better at identifying more subtle problems which may in the past be put down to behavioural issues or just left till they get better on their own which sometimes happens.

As for the comment regarding hooning about in field I think that horses that live out24/7 tend to hoon about less than those who are turned out but only for part of the day. On the yard where I keep my pony there are two groups those who live out 24/7 and those who do not. Very rarely does anyone see the living out group run around like mad, there is very rarely a day when I do not see those that come in at night galloping about.

 

[JFTDWS]

hmm, I vaguely recall discussing it in a comparative anatomy lecture at a vet school, but I could be misremembering it! hehe converses

I think for every case where an owner comes on HHO and says that, there are probs a dozen more owners making the same decisions and not asking on here pretty depressing thought!

SO1: "Horses that are not ridden and kept as nature intended probably do have a lower incidence of injury than those living in a more arftificial environment"

- I would be surprised if a horse kept truly as nature intended (i.e. in an environment with natural predators) would not suffer serious injuries more or similarly to ridden horses (minor injuries and you have to factor in the likelihood of diagnosis of niggling injuries in wild horses etc)... if you mean in a domesticated environment just unworked, then I can see your logic.

 

[SO1]

I mean like native ponies on the new forest or welsh mountains or mountains and moorlands we have in the UK, we don't have many predators in this country and also native ponies domesticated but kept on poor grazing out 24/7 so they don't get overweight but unridden.

SO1: "Horses that are not ridden and kept as nature intended probably do have a lower incidence of injury than those living in a more arftificial environment"

- I would be surprised if a horse kept truly as nature intended (i.e. in an environment with natural predators) would not suffer serious injuries more or similarly to ridden horses (minor injuries and you have to factor in the likelihood of diagnosis of niggling injuries in wild horses etc)... if you mean in a domesticated environment just unworked, then I can see your logic.

 

[JFTDWS]

yes, you may be right about new forests etc - I would describe them as ferral, really, rather than strictly as nature intended, since they don't really have predators, not being indigenous to the UK...

That said, the dodgy breeding and lack of natural selection by predators may mean that the poor quality stock is more prone to injury or disease...

 

[Jackson]

Hmm. Does anyone have any idea of how many newforests/welshies get fatally injured/die out there? I'm not sure but I think people sort them and take the old ones and some foals out, for population control, don't they?