Does your horse ever feel like it's holding something back?...

Chloe_GHE

Chloe_GHE

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Just wondered if anyone else ever felt like this when schooling.

Schooled Soap last night and I really wanted to get a bigger trot out of him, so I softened up his neck and really asked for bigger bolder strides, but he just didn't seem to 'get it' kept popping up into canter, so back to trot went large really pushed on 'up the hill' in the arena and he made some improvement, but he doesn't seem to have the 'range' that Dustry has :(

When I ask Dustry for more he gives it, and when I want him back he's back, but Soap seems to be holding himself back, if that makes sense?...

I know he doesn't have the natural talent of D so I'm working on more gears within the paces with S because he does get a little 'stuck'. This I think is as a result of my own lack of knowledge and basically re-schooling him myself for the first 3 years, and only now getting correct professional training from a dressage pro.

What I would like to know is, do you ever feel like this with your horse?.... and is it possible to overcome this 'limiting of the pace'?.... atm I don't know how we would ever achieve a medium trot!

I'm going to keep persevering with gears within the pace, and he really has cottoned on well to medium, working, and collected canter, but the trot seems to be a much more fixed pace, is this normally the case?... do some horse just have one not so good pace?... Can the trot be improved more than the other 2 gaits?...

Just general musings and thoughts on that please, dressage is bamboozling me and fascinating me in equal portions atm!

a very black spotted banana, kleenex and strepsils are all that's on offer today - slim pickings! :(
 
There is a medium trot in there just waiting to come out!

Try him on the lunge, establish the trot and then run him up the long side (does that make sense? you need to run too :D) I found this really helped me find the extended trot that I can't quite find under saddle, but earlier in her education it helped her find her 'medium' and become much better balanced in it so that I could ride it better and she didn't run but took the bigger step.

Generally horses pop up into canter because it is easier and far less effort.
 
Should I have him in something on the lunge? I know what you mean by starting on a big circle then running up the long side to stretch them out, but he's rubbish on the lunge (him or me?...not too sure! ;) ) so he wouldn't do it properly, he would just stick his head up and fall in and go faster, do I try it in the pessoa?... he's good on that but also, I think that makes him a bit stuck too......don't know what but I feel like I need something to keep his neck correct so that he works over his back, and through when doing it.....up until now I have used me!

Is it odd to be riding round feeling for this big trot and even though I have never ridden anything with a medium trot, I think I can feel what it should be like, and that's what's frustrating me....
 
I know this wont work for everyone but my old trainer (old as in 87, not as in binned off) got me charging around on Sov and just keeping hold of the front end but keeping pushing the back, yes it is really really untidy and hairy but when the penny drops you get an amazing medium trot which comes easier and more quickly each time. I think if a horse is naturally a bit backward and polite its very hard to get them to open out into the medium trot, and also I understand what you say about having the gears, but IMO that can sometimes be used against you when they just don't get it!
Also try as PH always does to teach medium trot going uphill in a really long stubble field, or any straight line and just keep oon until you get there :-)
But then what do I know about dressage ;-)
 
Agree BB, a dr trainer I used to have lessons with was the same in regards to keeping a contact, and keep pushing! You get speed to start with, but it gets them working over their backs and then the penny drops, and the strides become HUGE!! Works well ;)
 
KatB said:
Agree BB, a dr trainer I used to have lessons with was the same in regards to keeping a contact, and keep pushing! You get speed to start with, but it gets them working over their backs and then the penny drops, and the strides become HUGE!! Works well ;)
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Agree with BB and the above! It looks very untidy (and you might have a few people watching wondering what the hell you are doing!) but it works!
 
another thing to try is.

get him in a nice forward canter, put him on to a 20m circle.
then every 2-3 circles pop him down 2m's so 18m,16m,14m,12m, and if you can 10m get him really working from behind, do 4 circles of your smallest circle, eg 10m and then work in back out on to your 20m, back to trot and as you go across the diagonal to change the rein you need to push, really push, lift your hands up everything to say MOVE. I find it really helpful for twizzy if i say trot, trot, trot , trot, trot at the same time tend to end up as otototototot though :D. then back on to the circles the other way, I know you cant say 'trot,trot,trot,trot' when doing a test but if you say this and at the same time do something with your body( hands a little higher/forward/legs in a differnet place/patting his side0 you should be able to do this instead of saying trot trot at him, might take a few goes but i find it really effective :).
 
Baggybreeches said:
I know this wont work for everyone but my old trainer (old as in 87, not as in binned off) got me charging around on Sov and just keeping hold of the front end but keeping pushing the back, yes it is really really untidy and hairy but when the penny drops you get an amazing medium trot which comes easier and more quickly each time. I think if a horse is naturally a bit backward and polite its very hard to get them to open out into the medium trot, and also I understand what you say about having the gears, but IMO that can sometimes be used against you when they just don't get it!
Also try as PH always does to teach medium trot going uphill in a really long stubble field, or any straight line and just keep oon until you get there :-)
But then what do I know about dressage ;-)
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I did both of these on my WC/TB and have just started on my ISH. Sometimes they just need to realise that they can do it if that makes sense. Also in both occasions they are not really built for it unlike my other mare who I did not really have to teach...I couldn't believe it when I asked and out it came!!!!! :):)
 
I remember doing this with my old boy and like soap he used to keep cantering, this is the stage my young horse is at at the moment, i get a one stride and then pops into canter. Im always pleased as have had a few problems with the correct canter lead but my dressage trainer tell me off as im not asking that- but thats a different subject!!! :D With my old boy is just came over time and i dont think i realised it, but once he got his balance and strength that one step came to five and then down the long side. Just keep at it. My young horse does it lovely out hacking so i have been trying to take advantage of that as he always seem more forward going and balanced out hacking! I also lunge in a pessoa and have been doing it on the lunge, i think its good to see what your feeling. Good luck :D
 
OK thanks guys I will try the keep the contact keep pushing approach, trouble is he is very light in the contact so it's hard to get him into it, when I start to push he just comes back and up into canter. I think out 20x40 doesn't help as it feels pretty small, and I think he feels like he can't move on so much because there is always a corner coming.
Might venture into the stubble and try there..... Ta :)
 
Another good trick is at one end of the school is see how slow you can get the trot and then ask for bigger on the long side, then back to slow trot and then bigger and keep repeating.
 
applestroodle said:
Another good trick is at one end of the school is see how slow you can get the trot and then ask for bigger on the long side, then back to slow trot and then bigger and keep repeating.
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Yeah that's what I'm trying in the canter on a circle and it works fab, but trot on a circle obvs too much like the canter exercise so he pops into canter. Will try collecting and pushing on round large, thing is to me he feels like he is setting himself, and won't go further or 'let go', I know he can do it I've seen him pratting about in the paddock doing exactly that! I think I can get it if I ask for it in stretch eg long and low working on the stretch, but I know when I bring him back into an outline he will slow and set again......argh....
 
Henry would do it like a dream - well it probably wasnt "real" collected or extended, as I only ever did stuff at home with out an instructor, but he got what I wanted straight away. Trigger, who I have no doubt has been taught properly how to do it (Henry would never have been), would be nigh on impossible for me to get anything out of.
 
We are working on this at the moment and our trainer got us coming down the long side in working trot and doing a 10m half circle looping back round towards the track at B or E but asking as we are turning so hind legs are right underneath to push forwards. So just like a half 10m circle to change rein but asking for more as you turn towards the track. We were having success, but horse has now gone lame AGAIN...:(
 
In the same vein as above, if he can do a decent shoulder in then a good exercise can be to start with the shoulder in after the corner then head across the diagonal, asking for the lengthening at the same time. It really loads the hind leg and you can often get some amazing steps out of the transition.

You can also experiment a bit with sitting and posting when you ask for more (so long as you can keep the horse's back relatively soft in sitting trot) as some seem to prefer one of the other. Some horses even seem to be happier with a two point position, especially combined with a long straight line. But be very clear on keeping the rhythm and "feel" of the trot in your own body. Horses always have an individual threshold speed at which they move up a gait so you're having to overcome his inbuilt inclination, which might take a bit of "force". Once he gets it he'll think it's cool. :) (At which point you can start the next phase, when he offers the power trot every time he gets excited . . .:D) I've edited to add Halfsteps very valid warning, though - don't let the horse tip, stiffen and get out behind - you may get some bigger steps but you're creating another problem down the line.

I agree though, some horses just don't seem to "get" the push and suspension needed to move up that gear, so it's not so much a setting up issue and a confidence and practice issue. You have to get them to do it so they can get better at it, as it were. Hence the success of things like trotting up the side of a field etc. - it almost "tricks" the horse into producing the movement, which you can then reward for and build confidence. You might need to "gee him up a bit" so don't fuss too much that everything else is perfect initially, just keep your eye on the prize.

It's also important not to pull up immediately as a "reward" but to let the horse power on and have a bit of fun, and get comfortable with what his body can do. Even if it gets a bit hairy! I think that's how it often goes wrong in the first place - the horse powers off a few times when its young, perhaps with a stiff back, and the rider gets anxious and pulls up or reacts in such a way that makes the powering forward an uncomfortable experience for the horse. So the horse is a bit scared anyway, just from the unfamiliar sensations and feeling a bit out of control, then has that suspicion confirmed by the rider's reaction.

When you watch the people who produce horses for things like the Bundeschampionship FB posted the photos from, they ride those horses very aggressively forward from day one, with as much push as those snappy hind legs can produce. The horses get used to that feeling under the rider and learn to think that fast and use their bodies at that level of push. (Which is not to say that's always the way to go of that it doesn't come with its own potential problems, only that the rest of us are playing catch up!)
 
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Good post from TarrSteps. :)

The "hold onto the front end and push like billy-o" method will only really result in the horse running or hollowing, and the hind legs pushing out behind rather than stepping through. A true medium or extended trot comes from collection, like the uncoiling of a spring. If you can collect, then ask the horse to step longer but in the same rhythm for a few steps, then back again, you can build on this and get a nice correct medium trot eventually.

It is true that some horses need a bit more help to find their stride, but you want to raise them off the shoulder and onto the hind leg, not push them more onto the forehand.
 
Yes!! My grey did! She was so talented but it never came to fruition. She had the hugest jump in the world so why weren't we jumping big jumps? I thought it was our relationship.. It wasn't. I had the niggle for years, why wasnt 'it' happening? At 9 years she died. Turned out she had old worm damage from when she was a foal and would have been in low grade pain all her life :( :(

current horse. Making leaps and bounds! Suddenly feel like he wasn't quite 'giving'. Very subtle. He was coming back at me at canter and having the odd buck, most people who have assumed it was just a youngster phase. Took him to my super duper back man and voilà!! V tight under the saddle (nothing serious).

Go with gut insinct re: your horse. If he is not giving his all then why? I've seen bids of soap and yourself jumping and he is so genuine! If he is not doing his best at something maybe he is trying to tell you something. Just a thought!! X
 
Good point! The biggest difference I felt when the penny dropped was the elevation of stride, and yes to get there did feel out of control and at times I did think Mrs j was losing the plot, but hell yeah the end did justify the means. On the other hand with Emerald who sit off the bridle, we literally have to push him up up up, until he has nowhereto go and then again we get it, but he does have a more flat action than Sov and finds extending much easier (and is a show off!)
 
firewell said:
Yes!! My grey did! She was so talented but it never came to fruition. She had the hugest jump in the world so why weren't we jumping big jumps? I thought it was our relationship.. It wasn't. I had the niggle for years, why wasnt 'it' happening? At 9 years she died. Turned out she had old worm damage from when she was a foal and would have been in low grade pain all her life :( :(

current horse. Making leaps and bounds! Suddenly feel like he wasn't quite 'giving'. Very subtle. He was coming back at me at canter and having the odd buck, most people who have assumed it was just a youngster phase. Took him to my super duper back man and voilà!! V tight under the saddle (nothing serious).

Go with gut insinct re: your horse. If he is not giving his all then why? I've seen bids of soap and yourself jumping and he is so genuine! If he is not doing his best at something maybe he is trying to tell you something. Just a thought!! X
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Funny you should say that I did stand and stare at him eating his supper after and wonder why he didn't seem to have the power forwards etc so I called my physio just in case and she's coming to see him on Monday, he's due his 6month check anyway and it can't do any harm for him to be treated.

I don't think it's a physical issue, but I do like to rule that our before pressing the issue with him
 
Ah that's good! I watched your video the other day of your boys being silly buggers in the field and it did strike me what natural elevation D had. Soap may find that type of work a bit harder or he is just a bit older and stuck in his ways so a bit more questioning of what your asking him to do?
Your such a good rider and consciencious owner I'm sure you will get to the bottom of it.


P.s don't sell dustry ;) or soap :) (dustry can be your youngster coming up the ranks!)
 
I use voice a lot as well by saying go, go, go as will often help them. I also work on gears through out so a tiny little trot, a more normal trot and then a longer bigger trot and work my way through them all as the little trot needs the impulsion and collection. Another thing that was driven into me was about my position. How can the horse left through the shoulders and withers if you are not allowing this. I ride it as if I am trying to lift the withers through my seat and allow them to come up.
 
firewell said:
Ah that's good! I watched your video the other day of your boys being silly buggers in the field and it did strike me what natural elevation D had. Soap may find that type of work a bit harder or he is just a bit older and stuck in his ways so a bit more questioning of what your asking him to do?
Your such a good rider and consciencious owner I'm sure you will get to the bottom of it.


P.s don't sell dustry ;) or soap :) (dustry can be your youngster coming up the ranks!)
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Yeah D is very bouncy whereas S is more flat and ground covering although if you watch the bit where they come hairing towards me and then stop to catch breath then zoom off again, S does a few strides of v bouncy trot before blasting off across the field!

Doesn't look like D will be going anywhere for the short term poor little scrap got stung by a wasp and it got infected! what are the chances of that? so now I'm bathing and creaming a horrid lump :( can't show him to prospective buyers looking like he has the plague! I think it's all part of his plan to stay with me forever, which would be ok if he also had a plan to find me a new job that pays 50k a year! ;) :)
 
From my experience the best way to get your horse to do a medium trot (and how I have taught most of my horses to do a medium/extended trot) is to let go of the front end i.e. forget about the outline, and basically hare round the school going as fast as you dare in trot until you get the extension/flick of the toes. As soon as you feel even just one step immediately pat you horse/reward it by stopping and giving it a treat or however u wish to reward them. And repeat the exercise until u find u r able to just put yur legs on and your horse understands that when u do that it means extend, you will be surprised at how quickly it comes!
Basically then once your horse has got the idea that legs = go you can then work on getting the roundness back into the trot etc which is fairly straight forward to do.
If you do it this way then it will actually improve your base trot also.
My current little 6y.o mare has an amazing walk and canter (scores 8's no problem) but a very pony-like trot and finds it hard to move the shoulders and really only has one trot. However I make a point everytime i get on her to both move her on in the trot and then over collect her and then go normal as this elasticates her and improves the freedom of the trot so it has more air time. Also once you have got the freedom in the shoulder from the medium you can then keep that rhythm that has freed the shoulders and you have your base (working) trot without having to work very hard!
Some horses will never find extension easy as it is just the way there built (Phoebe Buckley's Litte Tiger is a parfect example) but it is possible to 'make' a horses trot as it is very easy to improve a symmetrical gait where as it is far more difficult to improve the walk and the canter, as i'm sure if you speak to any dressage trainer/rider they will tell you.

Sorry this turned into such an essay!! Hope something here helps?!?
 
Somebody already mentioned the 'little trot-big trot' exercise where you ask them to trot very small and then push them very forward, so that one helps.
The other thing we do is to trot around and make a 10m circle at F, K, M and H (though if you can't make a small circle, make it bigger). When we came off the circle, we used the whip and leg to ask for a nice big trot, then circle again at the next marker. Obviously you slow the trot a little for the circle, but the idea is to keep the trot going nice and forward so they start thinking 'forward' and it helps get their hind leg underneath them. Obviously after a while they start to anticipate so that helps too :)
 
Baggybreeches said:
I know this wont work for everyone but my old trainer (old as in 87, not as in binned off) got me charging around on Sov and just keeping hold of the front end but keeping pushing the back, yes it is really really untidy and hairy but when the penny drops you get an amazing medium trot which comes easier and more quickly each time. I think if a horse is naturally a bit backward and polite its very hard to get them to open out into the medium trot, and also I understand what you say about having the gears, but IMO that can sometimes be used against you when they just don't get it!
Also try as PH always does to teach medium trot going uphill in a really long stubble field, or any straight line and just keep oon until you get there :-)
But then what do I know about dressage ;-)
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Ditto keeping hold of the front end and just keep pushing hind end. My instructor (who got to burghley on a very average moving horse) took me out in the field and after warming him up and making sure he was realllyyy supple, sent me off flying around the field. She was on her horse and came along side me to begin with to make Rock think forwards... We'd start in a corner and she said make sure you have a strong contact and just keep pushing. I went and she just kept shouting 'MORE, MORE!' and its amazing how much more i got out of him, because he had that space for him to think forward. Yes he would brake, but who cares, its only at home.. if he did.. bring him straight back and ask again straight away. When it feels good, bring him back down into working trot but still with the energy and repeat.. then after a while you can ask for them to react sooner, so as soon as you put your leg on they go. It made me realise i needed to ask for alot more, and needed to be a bit braver! Dont get me wrong he would never get good marks for his medium but theyd be a lot better now than they used to!
 
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