Dog Borstal- BBC3

[lynspop]

Just saw my first episode of this programme and thought it was awful!! The trainers shouted and swore at humans and dogs and owners shouted and screamed at dogs while trying to get their attention. At one point when trying to teach a dog to ignore cyclists the trainer screamed "f**king leave it" and threw the equilvalent of a glass of water in the dogs face. This cannot be taken seriously as a positive method of dog training surely?
Although I respect that there are many different training methods available, and some will work with certain dogs etc, but i dont think showing this sort of thing on TV is good.
At the end of the show they have to do a test and are judged- 2 out of 3 dogs failed, one because it bit someone, proof surely that this heavy handed method of training is out-dated and doesnt work?!
Im really quite shocked by this programme, particularly when you watch something like the "dog whisperer" on sky and see what positive results can be gained from using dog psychology etc.

 

[Skhosu]

I actually think the programme is often a lot of common sense, I thinkthe dog whisperer often talks crap, I dont see why water and distracting noises shouldn't be used (and the dogs on dog borstal 99% of the time it is the owners fault and they need shouted at!)

 

[AmyMay]

I love Dog Borstal. I've never seen one episode that has given me any kind of cause for concern in relation to the way the trainers 'train' the dogs.

In most cases owners have either bought totally unsuitable dogs for their way of life - or simply do not have the tools at their disposal to help them deal with even the simplist of problems.

Fantastic programme. And Mick is quite simply my hero!

 

[RLF]

I think they have to use these methods as the numpty owners have allowed the dogs behaviour to become so bad, and it works.

 

[lynspop]

I see all your points, I just didnt find it comfortable watching but totally agree re owners being idiots- one woman tonight let her dog eat entire mcdonalds cheese burgers etc.
And re the dog whisperer i think a lot of what he says makes sense- he is more into helping people understand their dogs psychology though rather than obedience work.
Mayb I just saw a bad episode of Dog Borstal.

 

[SarahLouise83]

As an animal behaviourist/dog trainer/call me what you like (within reason!!)

I really enjoy watching both The Dog Whisperer and Dog Borstal - both programmes (in my opinion) approach things from a common-sense perspective. Cesar Milan goes by the theory of "exercise, discipline then affection" (completely agree - most dogs are under-exercised and under-disciplined) whilst those on Dog Borstal tend to approach things from an equally common sense kind of way with more focus on exercising the dog and mentally stimulating it more.

I have never had any issues with anything I've seen on either programme - many people have issues against Cesar Milan and many people detest him yet like the things they see on Dog Borstal. Its all down to personal preference at the end of the day.

It makes my toes curl when I see the owners on Dog Borstal getting a right rollocking (teehee!) but equally near enough all of them deserve it for letting their dogs behaviour get THAT bad before they seek help!!

All the people you see on programmes like that are highly experienced and/or qualified dog trainers/handlers/behaviourists. They'll all approach each case as an individual which we all have to do - what works for one dog/owner combo might not work for another. Some dogs simply don't respond to fuddy-duddy praise-praise-praise all the way methods without some form of discipline.

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
I love Dog Borstal. I've never seen one episode that has given me any kind of cause for concern in relation to the way the trainers 'train' the dogs.

In most cases owners have either bought totally unsuitable dogs for their way of life - or simply do not have the tools at their disposal to help them deal with even the simplist of problems.

Fantastic programme. And Mick is quite simply my hero!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, Mick also makes me laugh, and I have never seen anything in the programme at all to suggest ill behaviour towards the dogs, and the owners, are like the typical numpties I deal with, I wish I could say "shut the f#ck up missus/Mr, u have not got a clue", when Im dealing with behavioural cases or giving advice to an owner wanting to hand a rescue in.

but I remain polite

I do like Caesars approach best, as I believe strongly in the exercise, disclipline, affection theory, and he is a little more harsh with reprimand(which I don't have any issues with at all),
It's pretty much basic stuff on Dog Borstal, very easy to follow and comprehend from an owner perspective, and believe me, when dealing with owners like this u need to make things as simple as possible

I think 2 of the trainers are more tactful than Mick(like myself)

, but Mick jsut says what us trainers would really like to say

 

[missshell]

QR

My auntie and her partner went on dog borstal and the change in their dog was amazing. They had the lady trainer...her name escapes me....Lynn maybe?

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

I love Dog Borstal and think most of the owners deserve everything they get

- most of them have pretty much ruined their dogs with lack of training and discipline and the food they shovel down them. I watch it for Mick as I think he is hilarious!!

What ever you think of the different methods they manage to turn the dogs round so they become managable pets instead of ending up in a rescue or being destroyed, as well as making the owners more responsible.

 

[lynspop]

Dont get me wrong- im not saying I believed them to be mistreating the dogs etc (not sure why everyone seems to think thats what I was inferring either), i just was slightly concerned that people watching might try some of these things at home- and possibly cause more problems etc than they already had.
Im by no means against animals being disicplined etc but for me personally, its not how I would treat my dog (although granted, he is well behaved and im not an idiot that lets him run amok).
I realise many dogs on the show are there as a last resort or been selected because their behaviour is so awful,and so drastic action is needed to sort out dogs (and owners)

 

[lynspop]

[ QUOTE ]

All the people you see on programmes like that are highly experienced and/or qualified dog trainers/handlers/behaviourists. They'll all approach each case as an individual which we all have to do - what works for one dog/owner combo might not work for another. Some dogs simply don't respond to fuddy-duddy praise-praise-praise all the way methods without some form of discipline.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realise this also and am not watching it as someone who thinks "fuddy duddy praise-praise" is the way to go. I understand some dogs need methods which are perhaps more discipline orientated.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I like Dog Borstal, although really it is the owners who need training , most of them shouldn't even have dogs imo

Mick reminds me of a trainer we used to have at a club I went to, certainly got results. I have seen dogs corrected by both water pistol method and rattle jars, there is no doubt they work where other methods have failed.

 

[AmyMay]

Mick is actually the most interesting of the lot - beccause he just ocassionaly lets that veneer of his slip, and there are a couple of dogs that he seems to have been pretty smitten with.

One in particular was a rottwieller - which he kept referring to as 'his' dog.

Lovely man.

 

[Teaselmeg]

I'm afraid I am not a fan of either show. Shouting, yanking a dog on a choke chain ( or even a prong collar or shock collar as is used on the Dog Whisperer), shaking rattle bottles etc are not an acceptable way to train any dog . Whilst I agree that Cesar Milan promotes exercise on his program, and I am all for your dog having boundaries, matching it up with kicking and poking the dog until it submits is unacceptable. Both programs are designed to entertain, not to educate which is really sad, but I guess a program on training your dog using positive methods ( which will take longer) is not what TV people want.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't have BBC3 so don't get to see Dog Borstal very often but agree I have more of a problem with the owners than the actual treatment of the dogs.

I will however speak in defence of prong collars. I was recommended to use one by a retired police dog trainer, who also taught me how to use it properly.

Combined with a change in my attitude in terms of how I perceive other dogs, backed up with follow-up training, it is the ONLY thing that has helped get my dog's aggression towards other dogs under control.

He is a massive, strong dog and physically, when he 'went', I found it very difficult to hold onto him and he had the potential to do a lot of damage.

Now I able to sit with him quietly in a class with other dogs just feet away, passing him, when just months ago he was trying to fight everything and other trainers wrote him off and said he would never be 'fixed'.

It is a short, sharp check, combined with a 'no' which physically brings his focus back to me when he gets fixated with another dog.
Once he is back 'with me', he is rewarded and we can concentrate on the more in-depth aspects of his training.

I know the problem is me and my nervousness about his behaviour, which he translates as me being afraid and him having to protect me. However I needed something, anything to get his focus back on me and in the beginning, voice, body language, just didn't work.
The collar helped me get that initial control back.
He still has his moments outside training class (as mentioned on another thread, dogs careering towards him on the beach are still an issue.)

It is his standby collar, not his main one, it has a quick release mechanism and there is no 'tug of war' action where the prongs tighten or lock.

I know people don't like them and I know they do not suit every dog, but I think it is better that MY dog gets a very occasional jab in the neck (I hardly have to use it at all now) than he gets destroyed because he attacked another dog, I have no doubt that had he gone to a novice home he could be dead by now.

There are a few dogs at my class who wear them and they are all happy, healthy dogs who love to work.

 

[amberleystar]

The methods used in both Dog Borstal and Dog Whisperer are based on behaviour suppression via a heavy use of positive punishment and negative reinforcement. I try to train both my dog and horse using as much positive reinforcement as possible.

I have only owned a dog for a year, but I have learnt so much about training, operant conditioning, classical conditioning and animal behaviour in this past year since owning a male doberman!

We started off using many of the methods used in Dog Borstal, consulted different trainers to help etc etc, but as I learnt more about behaviour, I realised that many of these methods just suppress behaviour rather than teach the dog a new acceptable behaviour. It is easy to yell, yank and throw water, but this is punishment (definition of punishment - an aversive that happens after the behaviour) and as we found causes stress which then comes out as other difficult behaviours! Maybe we just have a dog that is a bit more strong willed than most, but I am sure glad that he has taught us a far better way to be with animals.

I agree that Cesar Milan looks very impressive, but I now realise that his methods are based on punishment and flooding. Also the whole dominance theory with dogs and horses for that matter has largely been discreditated, a simple google search will find more info on this.

One thing that I found recently that really made me think was this:

From the time the first living organisims, in any form of advanced state, appeared on Earth a mechanism evolved to improve the likelihood of the survivial of the individual. This is the mechanism of reward and aversion, it's 'hard-wired' in the most primitive area of the brain. Broadly speaking, anything that is of benefit to the dog, whether it fulfils a need or gives a pleasure, activates a neural pathway or such salience that it puts the act into long term memory, thus increasing the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated. This is known as 'approach behaviour'.

Conversly, that which threatens or compromises the well-being of survival of the individual activates the aversive or fear pathways, which results in 'avoidance behaviour'. Either way these events are so salient as to be unavoidable and operate within the reflext circuitry of the primitive brain.

So, quite simply, every advanced living organism on earth today, carries the same indelible programme, good things are to be sought and bad things are to be avoided.

 

[Cyberchick]

I go to training with some of the trainers and judges off Dog Borstal. We do use some of those methods if needed but you have to remember on the programme you are talking about extreme cases with numpty owners who alot of the time treat there dogs like a child and there is just no discipline. The methods they use on Dog Borstal do work in the fact that the poor dog (it's not there nessessarily their fault) has to get a bit of respect back for the owners before they can continue.
I have an aggresive Corgi in my group who has gone from trying to eat the ears off my dog to being able to work along side us. The owner didnt know how to deal with the situation at first but had a couple of one of ones and they introduced a rattle bottle and a firm NO and he is really getting the jist of this now. I believe this dog could have been 100% by now but the owner is still a little woosey. Lovely lady but doesnt follow things up all the time.
I have used water in the face for my dog a couple of times. She whines and moans constantly some times so a splash of water and a QUIET stopped her in her tracks and now I can just QUIET without the water and she will shut up.
Some things we use some we dont but they dont have us all shouting at the dogs and throwing water at them. All of our training is based on positive praise but if people need to use a more harder tone in the voice etc we will use the methods you have seen on the program.