Dogs have starting fighting with each other

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MyBoyChe

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Anyone got any ideas. 3 dogs, 7 and 6 yr old ESS and a 3 yr old JRT, 1 ESS bitch and the 2 boys. Had all 3 since puppies and all are speyed/neutered since 6 months. Walked together, off lead twice a day and have freedom of the house the rest of the time. All are good natured, sociable when we meet other dogs and well behaved generally. Over the last few months I have noticed the jrt seems happy to start a scrap with the springers, he always backs off as the springer bitch who wont start the fight but is happy to finish it seems to have got his measure, the springer boy hates confrontation and although he will growl he'll walk away if he can. It seems to be a bit territorial, if the springers try to get on the sofa when the jrt is on it, he grumbles at them, sometimes they walk away but other times it turns to baring teeth, growling and lunging at each other. My immediate reaction is to pick up the jack and throw everyone outside so that noone gains possession of the sofa! Dogs have always been allowed on the sofa and I dont intend to stop that, it would be quite difficult to do I think, Id be constantly shooing them off, house is a normal semi with a kitchen and a lounge so no option to have separate rooms for each of them. I dont really want to do that anyway as all 3 are pets and I dont see the point in having them kept separately. I think a call to the vet is in order and maybe health checks all round just in case but in the interim, does anyone have any thoughts on why this has just started and ideas for stopping it dead?
 
Dr Ian Dunbar used to say if you haven't got blood or a vet visit, you haven't had a fight. It's possible they are sorting out seniority, which varies depending on how important a resource is to each of them (sofa, beds, food, spaces) and unless they are really doing damage you might as well leave them to sort it in their own way. You can't influence the result and each time you step in you are just postponing their outcome
 
Thanks Jill, appreciate your thoughts. I suspect that is what is happening, the terrierist is just behaving as they do and the ESS girly wont let him. She is definitely top dog and the other springer boy has never challenged that. The little one has never bothered either, its only started happening in the last month or so. Its always over a space, never food or toys interestingly. I am minded not to step in but I would feel awful if one of them did get hurt. Previously, a cross growl from the older girl would be enough but he has definitely started to answer back a bit more, I would have expected him to do this before reaching 3 if he was going to. His mother is an absolute saint of a dog which is why I chose him, based on her temperament and the fact that the father was a house terrier and good natured.
 
Do they have any boundaires in the house or do what they like when they like? I know it is unfashionable for the human to be in charge but in my view asking 3 dogs to decide who rules the roost is always going to lead to trouble, you need to be the one that makes the decisions.
 
Clodagh, they do have boundaries, yes. There are some things I wont tolerate and they know when I speak, or my husband speaks, that they are expected to comply without question, and they do. I would say they are very well behaved dogs, recall is good, they will respond to both voice and hand signals when we are out and about and they are well socialised and well exercised. Nothing has changed in their home life so, other than health issues, which I will be exploring but have no reason to think they are the cause, I am flummoxed as to why this has started now. Are jrts late maturing, is it likely that he, at 3, has now decided to vie for top dog :(
 
My view (as usual) will be unpopular, but from what you have said, if the JRT were mine and he was on the sofa with me and he grumbled at another dog who wanted to come up, he would be on the floor so damned quick that he wouldn't know what the heck had hit him.

My house dogs learn that being on the sofa is not a god given right, it is a privilege and they are invited up. It is my house, I am in charge, end of.

It is good though that your dogs are well behaved out of the house and good that you regularly exercise them. So long as you can rule out any medical problems then I would suggest that discipline (fair, not heavy handed) needs to be re-inforced.

Although this is a whole different subject, in my opinion, your dogs were all neutered at a very young age. It may well be that puppy behaviour has continued longer than normal as a result of them not receiving that final hormone boost and things are just coming to a head as the JRT reaches social maturity, as opposed to physical maturity.

Just my ramblings, and am very nervous of advocating solutions without actually seeing the behaviour as so much can get lost in the individual interpretation.
 
GGD, thank you, believe you me, he has had my hand up his bum and landed on the floor before he even finished growling. To give him his due, he never answers me back and has the grace to look ashamed. The older ESS was speyed quite young as she had entropia and we did both ops under one GA, the jack was also done quite young as he was quite sexually forward and becoming a nuisance! You are quite right, the sofa is mine and although they are allowed up without asking, they are not allowed to sit in the best spot, have to move if they are in the way and definitely not allowed to argue with each other.
 
The growling/fighting is about their relationship with each other, not with you. If you suppress it it will very likely surface elsewhere, or at a time when you aren't there.
 
JillA said:
The growling/fighting is about their relationship with each other, not with you. If you suppress it it will very likely surface elsewhere, or at a time when you aren't there.
Click to expand...

Totally agree......growling is a warning and if you take that away, dogs can go straight to the bite. That is why you have to be so careful about advice on the internet.

I still would not tolerate a dog taking 'control' in such a situation. Nor do I leave dogs together unsupervised if I have any concern about their interaction.

Personally, whilst I laud Dunbar for a lot of his work, I prefer not to have unnecessary vet bills, so tend not to leave my dogs to sort it out for themselves if I can possibly help. I will re-inforce where necessary. Maybe the views of a cash strapped OAP nowadays but have followed that belief most of my life.
 
Thank you both again for your thoughts, I totally agree it is about their relationship with each other. What Im trying to figure out is why it is likely to have surfaced now after living together as a group for 3 years with no bother. As I type they are asleep next to each other, snoring gently and completely relaxed. To be fair, the jack normally backs off first and wanders behind the sofa, still huffing and puffing but keeps out of the way until the ess has calmed down, its as if he realises he has overstepped the mark and thinks he may have started something he cant finish!
 
You continue to deliver little snippets of info; this is why anyone who has not seen the behaviours for themselves is ill advised to offer advice. Not sure of your experience level so would advise vet checks for all dogs followed by APBC behaviourist visit.
 
Sorry, I know its impossible to advise really, was just wondering if anything instantly popped into anyones head that hadnt popped into mine. Was hoping one or two experienced and sensible posters would reply, which is exactly what has happened, so thank you. I consider myself experienced, certainly not a novice owner, Im in my 50s and have had dogs all my life, never a terrier before though, always gundogs. As I said before, its the fact that it has only started happening in the last month or so that has thrown me. I will be speaking to my vet in the morning to arrange a check up for them all as a first step
 
DG, large 3 seater, we were each on a separate cushion, so yes, all together but he wasnt sat on my lap. I suspect he is defending his space, but the behaviour is random, sometimes he will actively seek to snuggle up with her, others she only has to look at where he is lying and he starts to grumble. I think its fairly atypical "small terrier behaviour" its just that he is so unterrier like most of the time and certainly hasnt been to date.
 
My suspicion would be that the health issues, if any, will be with the current top dog. Terrier senses a weakness that wasn't there before and seeks to become the new king. This is what would happen in nature, although the top dog should be the human. In our house any displays of dominance between dogs is met with an expression of dissatisfaction from the top dog (me or OH). It is easier for us though as neither dog is particularly bothered about dominating the other.
 
There is probably quite a few things going on here from what youve said, the early neutering/spaying wont have helped as they were not mentally mature or physically. I also think there might be some resource guarding going on here too as well as a bit of trying to establish top dog plus a terrier in the mix.

I wonder if the JR being small and cute gets a lot of attention and dare I say it just a bit spoilt, I have 2 Dobes and a very small dog a Lancashire Heeler and I have to be really strict with myself with making sure she follows the rules.

Terriers are a dog and a half and can be their own worst enemies so its very important he knows his place, when you go out I would never leave him alone with the others just in case, better to be safe than sorry.
 
DG, we are very aware that the terrier must not be treated as small and cute, which he is, but is never given privileges because of it. We have chosen all 3 for various reasons and fortunately find it really easy not to have a favourite, I can honestly say they all get treated equally and all as dogs, not accessories (I know you werent suggesting that last bit but it is a pet hate of mine and easy to do with small and cute). SK, you have raised something that I think may have been at the back of my mind but was trying to ignore. Whilst there is nothing obviously wrong I have booked the older springer in for a vet check this Friday and will raise my concerns re the behaviour. Lets see if this throws anything up, Im half hoping it will so that at least I have an answer, which hopefully, we can then do something about.
 
Going back to your question about JRTs being slow to mature - our previous male one was about 16 when he finally realised he was no longer a puppy! So yes, in my experience they do stay younger longer.
 
Funnily enough a friend of mine has a little terrier and her husband has Parkinsons but so far its controlled by drugs. This little dog has recently started to attack him and Im convinced its because of his condition, it may be the meds that is causing her to attack but it only seems to occur at night so Im guessing in this case its when he is due his meds or has just taken them.

Incidently I was there the other day having lunch and after we retired to the sitting room, my friend and I sat on the sofa with the dog between us her husband opposite, when her husband went to get up, this little dog flew off the sofa and went to attack him. I said AHAH very loudly and she dropped to the floor and then skulked back to the sofa. They had seen a behaviourist prior to this who had suggested the husband fed the dog and at night constantly call her and give her titbits, what that was ever going to achieve I will never know but it obviously didnt work.

OP you may never know what causes this, all you can do after having your other dog checked out is to be vigilant and keep the JR in his place.
 
We have three dogs in the house and a steady stream of visiting dogs. I find the dynamics of the group fascinating. What SK says rang a bell as my lurcher , who has always been top dog but never aggressive is now senile and the bottom dog, the middle lab, has really cheered up and got much more confident in all ways. She has obviously been 'oppressed' all her life by the lurcher, which is sad really but if she was an only dog she would be bottom of her own heap, she is so subservient.
 
JillA said:
The growling/fighting is about their relationship with each other, not with you. If you suppress it it will very likely surface elsewhere, or at a time when you aren't there.
Click to expand...

My own experience bears this out . . . all of our dogs have been rescues, but we get them all relatively young . . . we had a young lurcher girl who had obviously had a hard life and I don't think had ever lived inside - no indication that she couldn't live with other dogs so we got another dog - another rescue - 10-week old pup of uncertain origin (probably some terrier in there) and a fragile nature (he's very sensitive/neurotic).

The lurcher girl tolerated him from the very beginning - told him off often (all sound and fury but no actual damage) . . . we didn't punish or reprimand her for telling him off per se, but we did try and stop the more vociferous attacks. One day, she took it the absolute limit and tried to kill him . . . not exaggerating . . . blood everywhere and wouldn't stop - EVERY time he was near her, she went for him - from then on. We don't know what happened to her in her past life to make her that way . . . and we never blamed her . . . but it was very clear that they couldn't live together any more so we rehomed her to a rural home with no other dogs (broke our hearts).

I'm aware that this post won't be greeted with undiluted enthusiasm - lots of armchair experts will line up to denigrate (and worse) . . . but I hope it serves as an example of what happens when people suppress dogs' natural instincts. I don't believe that our particular situation would have ended any other way (and you can all argue the toss to your hearts' content), but I DO believe that suppressing unwanted behaviour rather than addressing it is not beneficial and is actually harmful - in all sorts of species.

P
 
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