Dogs, they keep you on your toes!

[Clodagh]

Tawny and Pen were picking up on Friday and were brilliant, I had Tawny and she found 100% of birds we were sent to find, some a really long way back. I have to give the guns credit for being aware of what they hit and marking it down in most cases. I do love her.

Now Ffee , on our walk this morning, found two pigeon wings, a 'lucky' rabbits foot and three crab apples. I appreicate that everything she brings me I take away from her, although she gets lots of praise. Then she found a dead squirrel and obviously had enough of me stripping her of her fun and she totally refused to hand it over. I could get her to walk to heel with it but no way was I getting my hand near it. I got nearly home before I could gently corner her and take it, even then it was hardly a gracious handover. I actually wonder if I should use treats to encourage her with delivery? I never have as apparently it can make them 'spit' but she is the greediest dog I have ever dealt with, and spit must be better than avoidance? Ideas?

 

[twiggy2]

I agree spit is better than avoidance

 

[Stiff Knees]

Peril was, at first, reluctant to give up some of her finds. OH began offering her a treat in exchange for the precious (stinking, rank) items she brought to us, she soon caught on. We carried treats in a right hand pocket, just a tap of the pocket meant she knew the treat was on its way but because she couldn't see it she didn't spit. Once she had given up the item she got the treat. If she now shows reluctance to give up an item we just tap the pocket and she hands over without spitting it at us. She is a very fast learner and once she's "got" something she does her straight leg waggy strut so we always know when to finish a training session !!

 

[Clodagh]

Peril was, at first, reluctant to give up some of her finds. OH began offering her a treat in exchange for the precious (stinking, rank) items she brought to us, she soon caught on. We carried treats in a right hand pocket, just a tap of the pocket meant she knew the treat was on its way but because she couldn't see it she didn't spit. Once she had given up the item she got the treat. If she now shows reluctance to give up an item we just tap the pocket and she hands over without spitting it at us. She is a very fast learner and once she's "got" something she does her straight leg waggy strut so we always know when to finish a training session !!

Very good idea.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ohh have a word splurge, it's Sunday lol.

The biggest mistake I see with people trying to train a leave command is the snatching. When the dog drops something, it gets taken away. As time goes on, the will to release with some dogs gets slower and slower.
By the time we get it off them, we're frustrated and think 'that'll show him!' and put it away. Humph. But we're only training the dog not to give up his prize ever again.
People look at me blankly when their dog finally gives up a ball after several minutes of cajoling and/or fighting, I start yelping YEP GOOD BOY LET HIM HAVE IT AGAIN GO GO GO - WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? Any other way and the dog feels he is being punished twice.

Correction can work with some dogs but done wrong can cause complete lockdown and really spoil the relationship.
I had two of everything for my older dog when he was a pup and he will release most things if I put my hand on them and if he doesn't I will pop my finger or thumb down the back of his tongue. I'm also not afraid to use food for swapsies. I did have a real problem for a while but I fixed it positively. In a 'fight' he would win, but he learned 'I give it up, I get it back'.

My younger dog was trained by a person who didn't believe in bribery and chided me for two ball swaps and all that fluffy nonsense.
When he's in a good mood, the dog will spit immediately and very clean, when he's not in form, the ears go back and the tail goes down and the jaws clamp, putting my fingers in will not work and I either wait him out or swap.

And yes, The Magic Pocket is good fun!

 

[Stiff Knees]

We also use the pocket tap with Jake for recall now he is deaf. When we take him up to the farm and allow him to roam free he always has one eye on us so he doesn't lose sight of us, the pocket tap is all that is required to bring him back to us. He was 12 when we taught him this as previous recall was a whistle, who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks!? Particularly a very greedy Labrador! 🐾😍

 

[[59851]]

Tawny and Pen were picking up on Friday and were brilliant, I had Tawny and she found 100% of birds we were sent to find, some a really long way back. I have to give the guns credit for being aware of what they hit and marking it down in most cases. I do love her.

Now Ffee , on our walk this morning, found two pigeon wings, a 'lucky' rabbits foot and three crab apples. I appreicate that everything she brings me I take away from her, although she gets lots of praise. Then she found a dead squirrel and obviously had enough of me stripping her of her fun and she totally refused to hand it over. I could get her to walk to heel with it but no way was I getting my hand near it. I got nearly home before I could gently corner her and take it, even then it was hardly a gracious handover. I actually wonder if I should use treats to encourage her with delivery? I never have as apparently it can make them 'spit' but she is the greediest dog I have ever dealt with, and spit must be better than avoidance? Ideas?

Treats with the cocker were a big no go. He would spit instantly and he's not the world's keenest retriever anyways! What worked for us was telling him "dead" and taking the retrieve and then handing it back to him so he didn't think I was going to take everything away, does she have a favourite dummy you could exchange for the nasty article??

 

[Clodagh]

Peril was, at first, reluctant to give up some of her finds. OH began offering her a treat in exchange for the precious (stinking, rank) items she brought to us, she soon caught on. We carried treats in a right hand pocket, just a tap of the pocket meant she knew the treat was on its way but because she couldn't see it she didn't spit. Once she had given up the item she got the treat. If she now shows reluctance to give up an item we just tap the pocket and she hands over without spitting it at us. She is a very fast learner and once she's "got" something she does her straight leg waggy strut so we always know when to finish a training session !!

I have gone to the computer so I can answer properly. . I like the tap the pocket more than holding a treat, I shall definitely try that. I have stopped carrying any treats as they all end up obsessed by the pocket, but I think this is a necessary evil!

 

[Clodagh]

Ohh have a word splurge, it's Sunday lol.

The biggest mistake I see with people trying to train a leave command is the snatching. When the dog drops something, it gets taken away. As time goes on, the will to release with some dogs gets slower and slower.
By the time we get it off them, we're frustrated and think 'that'll show him!' and put it away. Humph. But we're only training the dog not to give up his prize ever again.
People look at me blankly when their dog finally gives up a ball after several minutes of cajoling and/or fighting, I start yelping YEP GOOD BOY LET HIM HAVE IT AGAIN GO GO GO - WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? Any other way and the dog feels he is being punished twice.

Correction can work with some dogs but done wrong can cause complete lockdown and really spoil the relationship.
I had two of everything for my older dog when he was a pup and he will release most things if I put my hand on them and if he doesn't I will pop my finger or thumb down the back of his tongue. I'm also not afraid to use food for swapsies. I did have a real problem for a while but I fixed it positively. In a 'fight' he would win, but he learned 'I give it up, I get it back'.

My younger dog was trained by a person who didn't believe in bribery and chided me for two ball swaps and all that fluffy nonsense.
When he's in a good mood, the dog will spit immediately and very clean, when he's not in form, the ears go back and the tail goes down and the jaws clamp, putting my fingers in will not work and I either wait him out or swap.

And yes, The Magic Pocket is good fun!

I never snatch, I always wait until they give it to me, but the squirrel was beyond a joke. Eventually she walked to heel for a bout half a mile with it before I got to a good solid field corner where I edged her round until I could bring her to a halt close enough to me so I could hold it, I then say 'dead' and if that doesn't work a squeeze of the lips on the teeth. I can't give these sort of finds back or she swallows them! What you say makes perfect sense and is probably why she is so much better with dummies - partly a gobby bit of canvas is not so exciting but also if she gives it to me she gets another retrieve.
She is very sensitive so there is no correction (for this, anyway!).
I took the rabbit skin dummy out after our walk (it is her next favourite thing) and she delivered it well, as you say, then she gets a great instant reward.
Tawny used to be a bit reluctant but if I just walked away she would push it into my hand. Ffee is more stubborn!
I will use the magic pocket, for sure.

 

[Clodagh]

Treats with the cocker were a big no go. He would spit instantly and he's not the world's keenest retriever anyways! What worked for us was telling him "dead" and taking the retrieve and then handing it back to him so he didn't think I was going to take everything away, does she have a favourite dummy you could exchange for the nasty article??

I can take a ball with me, but if I have one the whole walk is with her obsessing over the ball, she won't even pee, let alone relax enough for a sniff. She is totally obsessed with carrying things and retrieving, handy for her future career but a pain right now.
I am going to try treats and see. They tend not to spit once they have bought you back a runner or two and spit them out only to see them legging it across the field!

I have got the number for a local gundog trainer and have been waiting for a few days for a call back, she has now got in touch so I will take an older one over for a session and see if I like her and if so take Ffee. She is not a year yet so no rush, its all fun at the moment..

 

[Stiff Knees]

I have gone to the computer so I can answer properly. . I like the tap the pocket more than holding a treat, I shall definitely try that. I have stopped carrying any treats as they all end up obsessed by the pocket, but I think this is a necessary evil!

Peril probably only gets a treat now on every tenth tap of the pocket, just to reinforce the command. She's certainly not pocket obsessed. Give it a try. Good luck. 🍀🐾

 

[PapaverFollis]

Not quite the same but the Sprollie does a good obedience style retrieve taught using treats (He had no instinctive retrieve at all.). Deliberately trained a "hold" and to not release until given a cue. Might not work for game because training the hold part might make them bite down too hard. So my thought is that careful use of treats should be fine. Keep the treat value relatively low perhaps?

Mostly I'm posting so you can all have a laugh at me...
My spaniel is just a disgrace and last time he found a nicely decomposing rabbit I had to lead him home through the village still carrying it and he wouldn't give it up until MrPF came out of the house with his food bowl containing a tin of dog food... He still had a think about it before dropping the damn thing. 😂😂 I promise to properly train the next one!

 

[Stiff Knees]

Mostly I'm posting so you can all have a laugh at me...
My spaniel is just a disgrace and last time he found a nicely decomposing rabbit I had to lead him home through the village still carrying it and he wouldn't give it up until MrPF came out of the house with his food bowl containing a tin of dog food... He still had a think about it before dropping the damn thing. 😂😂 I promise to properly train the next one!

Happy to oblige 😂😂😂😂😂😂

 

[Clodagh]

Would I laugh? I walked a long way today with a squirrel accompanying me...dogs do like to reality check us sometimes!

 

[CinnamonChristmasCookie]

Zak has a release noise, taught at puppy class, it’s extremely useful. The sniffer dogs I see working all get their tennis ball once they’ve found the item, so possibly use that, the trick being that she can’t know you have the ball. If I have the whanger, I get no sense from Bear, even if he’s allowed to let rip. I’m becoming very good at concealing it down a jacket!

 

[Stiff Knees]

Would I laugh? I walked a long way today with a squirrel accompanying me...dogs do like to reality check us sometimes!

When we first began to look after Spot we took her for a walk and she picked up a flattened hedgehog from the roadside. She refused to hand it over and we could do nothing to prise her jaws apart, she carried the hedgehog for more than 2 hours and on the way home we stopped at the local butchers were she decided that swapping the hedgehog for a pork pie would be acceptable to her and she dropped it. The look in her eyes was one that said "if I am to be your dog, this is how it will be". She would later become our dog, and that is how life was with Spot, a series of exchanges of undesirable items for edible items. 🐾😍💔

 

[Clodagh]

When we first began to look after Spot we took her for a walk and she picked up a flattened hedgehog from the roadside. She refused to hand it over and we could do nothing to prise her jaws apart, she carried the hedgehog for more than 2 hours and on the way home we stopped at the local butchers were she decided that swapping the hedgehog for a pork pie would be acceptable to her and she dropped it. The look in her eyes was one that said "if I am to be your dog, this is how it will be". She would later become our dog, and that is how life was with Spot, a series of exchanges of undesirable items for edible items. 🐾😍💔

Now undesirable is a strong term. Undesirable to you, perhaps!?

 

[Stiff Knees]

Now undesirable is a strong term. Undesirable to you, perhaps!?

Experience has taught me that the more undesirable an item is to a human, the higher up the dogs bucket list of must have things that item will be. On Spot's bucket list were fisherman's maggots, fly covered seaweed, fox poop, lamb tails, frogspawn, sheep cleansings (made me physically sick), human sick (ever the opportunist), plus anything long dead, feathered or furred. I miss her so much 💔😍🐾

 

[druid]

Not quite the same but the Sprollie does a good obedience style retrieve taught using treats (He had no instinctive retrieve at all.). Deliberately trained a "hold" and to not release until given a cue. Might not work for game because training the hold part might make them bite down too hard. So my thought is that careful use of treats should be fine. Keep the treat value relatively low perhaps?

A deliberately trained hold is the foundation of USA style gundog training so I'd not worry about it affecting a soft mouth. Mine all learn dead/hold as commands on a place board early in puppyhood

 

[oldie48]

Having a BT and never having much to do with gundogs, this is a completely new language to me! Stanley doesn't do retrieve only finders keepers, usually with stinking and revolting remains. I now let him carry it until it gets too heavy or he gets bored and if he's still got it when we get home, it gets swapped for his antler or something else he llikes. He is very stubborn so I've learned to let him think it's OK for him to have whatever it is or he will give me the run around and he's so much quicker than me!

 

[Thistle]

I use a treat for delivery, swapping for it initially (they sometimes need incentive to hand over the goodies) I then fade it out slightly by asking the dog to return to heel following delivery then treating once sat at heel. Mr smart arse then decided to cut out the nice sit in front presentation so he could get his treat quicker, just coming to heel with the delivery, so we then had to revisit presentation. I still use occasional high value treats (sausage) even on a shoot day. Dogs are gamblers and occasional treats make them keener and they don't expect it every time. Treats now are for the super duper, competition standard, work. Or for when they've gone that extra mile for me.

 

[Clodagh]

I use a treat for delivery, swapping for it initially (they sometimes need incentive to hand over the goodies) I then fade it out slightly by asking the dog to return to heel following delivery then treating once sat at heel. Mr smart arse then decided to cut out the nice sit in front presentation so he could get his treat quicker, just coming to heel with the delivery, so we then had to revisit presentation. I still use occasional high value treats (sausage) even on a shoot day. Dogs are gamblers and occasional treats make them keener and they don't expect it every time. Treats now are for the super duper, competition standard, work. Or for when they've gone that extra mile for me.

Sorry I haven't looked at this thread lately. I feel quite put out as have never had to treat before! I don't make them sit for presentation, they just need to thrust it at me, which makes the treat organisation more difficult. She will sit with something in her mouth though, so perhaps I should ask for sit, then give, and then treat in exchange? Is that how you do it? None of my others will eat a treat if there is a better offer (retrieve) but Ffee is the greediest dog I have ever met.

 

[Clodagh]

Experience has taught me that the more undesirable an item is to a human, the higher up the dogs bucket list of must have things that item will be. On Spot's bucket list were fisherman's maggots, fly covered seaweed, fox poop, lamb tails, frogspawn, sheep cleansings (made me physically sick), human sick (ever the opportunist), plus anything long dead, feathered or furred. I miss her so much 💔ðŸ˜ðŸ¾

Ffee threw up a huge pile of deer poo in her bed yesterday. She was quite prepared to retackle it!

 

[Thistle]

Initially when they're puppies I pop the treat in almost as a bribe to give up the retrieve (Beans went through a guarding phase where we patted him all over, made a huge fuss of him whilst he stood there guarding, then showed him the treat with the word dead and gave the treat immediately. I don't worry to much about sit, stand or whatever. With a sensitive dog the sit can be counter productive and put too much pressure on the dog. As the 'give' improves that only give treats when they do and extra super duper good one, every day half arsed ones get a pat and thanks. If the dog is likely to spit, or drop and run in on another retrieve I then reinforce the steadieness before I send again by asking the dog to heel and treating for that instead. You can phase treats out quite quickly once the dog understands that sometimes when it delivers there may be a tasty snack that you offer occesionally. Dogs are gamblers, think of it like a fruit machine/jackpot thing in the pub. You don't win every time but if you do it feels great. Sometimes you just win £1 (a bit of kibble) sometimes you win £50 (sausage) but you keep playing because you won the jackpot once!

 

[Thistle]

You could also play the hold/dead game when you're watching tv. Give her something to hold, say the command, tell her she's good. Then say dead/thanks/drop whatever you use and reward or pat if she places it in your hand. Trty to remember to be consistent about which hand you use if you can just to make it easier for you.

 

[Clodagh]

I don't think I can share videos on here so youi will have to take my word that she is doing great. I just can't get the treats right, my timing was always out so I gave those up and just made it silly exciting, so when she brings me something in the house I throw it again, immediately. She now pushes things into my hands, especially if I get bored before her and stop doing it. On walks 9/10 I can now get the dead thing quite easily and if she won't come near me I ignore her and she eats it. It doesn't seem to have done her any harm yet! Probably not what a pro would recommend...
I cut the wings off some pheasants today (dead ones) and attached them to dummies and she was great, bought them back just as though they were plain old canvas. She might be a gundog yet!

 

[Stiff Knees]

Silly exciting is good ?