Dominant, grumpy or nasty?

[PolarSkye]

I'm a little bit baffled. I know "of" a mare who has previously killed another mare (kicked her, crippled her and then finished her off) . . . who has subsequently demonstrated that she can't be trusted with other horses (has kicked them or tried to when in close proximity). Her owner manages her appropriately - she has her own field and those on the yard with her know not to lead theirs past her, etc.

However - owner has been told that her mare is a "lead mare" and as, such, her job in the wild would be to despatch weak, elderly and infirm horses so the herd can keep keep moving.

I'm struggling to find any other anecdotal evidence that this is how "lead" mares in the wild behave. I have heard of broodmares killing another mare's foal . . . ditto stallions. But I'm not familiar with this behaviour as described and ascribed.

Anyone with more experience/knowledge of equine behaviour (particularly wrt mares) care to weigh in/enlighten me? If this isn't how lead mares behave, what else could be prompting this mare to behave this way? Is there anything the owner can do, other than what she is already doing (turn her out in her own field/be careful while on the yard)? Could this be a hormonal problem?

P

P.S. This mare was previously a broodmare - just in case that has any bearing.

 

[Caol Ila]

Most of the research done on feral herds that I have seen suggests that they are generally more peaceful than domestic herds -- except when two studs go at it over a mare, and even then, it is frequently more display than actual fighting. The way our domestic horses live: limited space, limited resources, herds of random individuals thrown together because they happen to be at the same livery yard, horses who have grown up badly socialized, all lends itself to conflict.

In my experience, lead mares (and males) are very rarely physically violent, and can move the other horses around with just a look, and the other horses will follow them and hang out with them, and in feral or semi-feral situations, this would be the horse who would know the locations of resources, water, shelter, etc. Whereas horses will run away from the herd bully, but that animal isn't a "lead horse" as such, since astute observers of herd dynamics have generally commented that other horses are inclined to just stay out of the bully's way, rather than follow him or her. There has been a lot of work on this in an effort to disprove the "aggression = dominance" theories that get floated around horse training circles.

The "job" of the lead mare, in other words, is to have extensive knowledge of her environment and lead the herd to water, to shelter during bad weather, to the best grazing depending on time of year, and out of danger should the herd be threatened by a predator. The whole idea of a mare or stallion "dispatching" weak members of the herd is simply silly. I think nature does a good job of that. If a horse is too lame or weak to keep up with the movement of the herd, the herd won't wait around for it, and it won't last long on its own.

My horse is a danger to herself and others when turned out in a herd, so she lives in her own field. She's too aggressive and likes chasing horses, backing them into corners, and then spinning around and double barreling the crap out of them. Luckily, she is respectful of human beings, so she is perfectly well-mannered when both she and another horse are out of the field and being managed by humans. So she's safe enough when not turned out loose with other horses. I blame this on poor socialization as a youngster. I know from age 2-7, she was at her previous owner's private stable with only one other horse for company, but I haven't a clue how she was managed at the stud where previous owner bought her.

 

[amandap]

I think terms like 'lead mare' just makes things confusing when applied in a domestic setting. Like us, horses can be sensitive to changes and we don't get on with everyone. Changing one horse in a group can upset the applecart completely and the whole herd structure can be shifted.

I think it's very rare for a horse to kill another but we have to be aware of how horses interact and how any changes (including feed, management, work as well as changes in a herd) affect individuals and take appropriate action.
Labelling a horse with a partiular personality or a static place in a herd/group is fraught with problems, we need to observe how they interact in any given circumstances to get clues as to how to proceed with management.
That's my take anyway

 

[PolarSkye]

Most of the research done on feral herds that I have seen suggests that they are generally more peaceful than domestic herds -- except when two studs go at it over a mare, and even then, it is frequently more display than actual fighting. The way our domestic horses live: limited space, limited resources, herds of random individuals thrown together because they happen to be at the same livery yard, horses who have grown up badly socialized, all lends itself to conflict.

This is my understanding too . . . perhaps some horses just don't respond well to the way we choose to keep them (in random herds with limited space/resources, etc.)?

In my experience, lead mares (and males) are very rarely physically violent, and can move the other horses around with just a look, and the other horses will follow them and hang out with them, and in feral or semi-feral situations, this would be the horse who would know the locations of resources, water, shelter, etc. Whereas horses will run away from the herd bully, but that animal isn't a "lead horse" as such, since astute observers of herd dynamics have generally commented that other horses are inclined to just stay out of the bully's way, rather than follow him or her. There has been a lot of work on this in an effort to disprove the "aggression = dominance" theories that get floated around horse training circles.

Again - my own understanding - I clearly remember Mark Rashid, in particular, talking about the good sense of a herd following a benevolent "leader" (for want of a better word) and staying away from a dominant, aggressive horse.

My horse is a danger to herself and others when turned out in a herd, so she lives in her own field. She's too aggressive and likes chasing horses, backing them into corners, and then spinning around and double barreling the crap out of them. Luckily, she is respectful of human beings, so she is perfectly well-mannered when both she and another horse are out of the field and being managed by humans. So she's safe enough when not turned out loose with other horses. I blame this on poor socialization as a youngster. I know from age 2-7, she was at her previous owner's private stable with only one other horse for company, but I haven't a clue how she was managed at the stud where previous owner bought her.

Thanks for sharing this . . . I know that the mare in question was a broodmare before her current owner bought her, but who on earth knows how well she was socialized/managed before that. This mare is fine with people - if a little ill-mannered - wouldn't dream of biting or kicking a person - is just a little barge-y . . . and is placid and willing to ride. She doesn't display any typical symptoms of ovary/season issues and isn't girthy or particularly stressy so I think owner can rule out ulcers. She is a shire cross (don't know what she is crossed with, but she's a very big girl - more shire than anything else but without the height).

P

 

[Polonaise]

I would have thought this was a little extreme for "lead mare" behavior although we don't know the circumstances, I owned a gelding once who was as passive and cuddly as anything but had a reputation locally after he apparently killed a sheep! There is a youtube video somewhere of I believe a lead mare killing a disabled foal.
I have 2 "lead" mares, one is quite frankly grumpy, she screams like a stallion if other horses invade her space without an invitation, no-one is allowed near her at feed time, she spends a lot of time "stressing" about what monsters are about to attack her herd etc etc. The other is much more passive, she will have a little kick or nip to keep everyone in line but generally just goes "right boys, this is what we're doing today" and they follow her unquestioningly, the only horse I've ever seen her defer to is the previously mentioned who she adores but I've sadly had to separate them to reduce the battle scars from feed time.
What they have in common is an obvious desire to "protect" the other horses around them, they stand watch when others are sleeping, when in company they both like to go first and will "check out" anything new before the others get there, they can be a handful out hacking but are good as gold if used as a companion for youngsters. I had a mare once who used to put the bonfire out before the others were allowed over that side of the field!

 

[PolarSkye]

I think terms like 'lead mare' just makes things confusing. Like us, horses can be sensitive to changes and we don't get on with everyone. Changing one horse in a group can upset the applecart completely and the whole herd structure can be shifted.

I think it's very rare for a horse to kill another but we have to be aware of how horses interact and how any changes (including feed, management, work as well as changes in a herd) affect individuals and take appropriate action.
Labelling a horse with a partiular personality or a static place in a herd/group is fraught with problems, we need to observe how they interact in any given circumstances to get clues as to how to proceed with management.
That's my take anyway

Thanks for this . . . I agree with most of what you have said and I'm not a fan of the term "lead mare" either. This mare's owner has been given this (in my opinion) guff about her being "lead mare" and that weeding out the infirm/weak would be her role and it's not something I had heard before or read anywhere . . . so I thought I'd see if wiser heads than mine could contribute/enlighten me.

Of course labels aren't helpful . . . but appropriate management based on past/demonstrated behaviour is certainly essential. It's always tempting to attribute human behaviour to animals . . . and emotions can run high . . . but I do believe it's important to see individual horses for what/who they are and manage them accordingly - for their own safety and that of the other horses/animals/humans they share space with.

P

 

[amandap]

Of course labels aren't helpful . . . but appropriate management based on past/demonstrated behaviour is certainly essential. It's always tempting to attribute human behaviour to animals . . . and emotions can run high . . . but I do believe it's important to see individual horses for what/who they are and manage them accordingly - for their own safety and that of the other horses/animals/humans they share space with.

P

Of course. This is why I have a bee in my bonnet about liveries/yards working together. A horse with that history is a particular problem and there is no wonder feelings run high and great care and thought must be taken about management.

 

[Caol Ila]

Maybe it's a Shire cross thing.... My horse is Shire-TB.

I am pretty sure such aggression is a combination of temperament, upbringing, and how we keep horses. It drives me crazy when I see young horses being kept more or less in isolation -- it does make me sad that my horse can't be in a herd, and if you don't socialize them as babies, you run the risk of consigning them to that fate for rest of their lives. You either run the risk that they get beat up, because their natural temperament isn't dominant/aggressive but they don't understand equine body language well enough to stay out of trouble; or they become bullies if they have more of a dominant temperament, because they don't understand how to move herdmates around without resorting to outright aggression.

In the case of my horse, it is just how she is. Back in 2006, I had her at a yard where the yard owner insisted that HER herd was so amazing that they could teach my horse, who was around 14 or 15 at the time, how to get along in a group, even though I was clear that the horse needed her own field adjacent to other horses. She put the horse with the herd, and a week later, announced as though it was some great epiphany, "Your horse is really nasty to other horses." I was a little like, "No sh ** t, Sherlock."

But because she is lovely and pleasant to be around so long as you have two legs, I just deal.

 

[PolarSkye]

What they have in common is an obvious desire to "protect" the other horses around them, they stand watch when others are sleeping, when in company they both like to go first and will "check out" anything new before the others get there, they can be a handful out hacking but are good as gold if used as a companion for youngsters. I had a mare once who used to put the bonfire out before the others were allowed over that side of the field!

I don't think - but I could be wrong - that this mare is particularly protective . . . at least not of other horses. She has been known to look after her owner, but wrt other horses has more of a "me first" attitude and isn't afraid of making her presence felt. She's rather fond of/protective of her personal space where other horses are concerned . . . dogs too - she'll chase those out of her field.

I'm getting away from my original question, however - and that was can the behaviour of this mare towards other horses in her space (field or otherwise) be ascribed to her being "lead mare" . . . and, so far, the consensus seems to be no and that it's more likely that she just doesn't like other horses in her space and will act accordingly (for whatever reason).

P

 

[Caol Ila]

I don't think - but I could be wrong - that this mare is particularly protective . . . at least not of other horses. She has been known to look after her owner, but wrt other horses has more of a "me first" attitude and isn't afraid of making her presence felt. She's rather fond of/protective of her personal space where other horses are concerned . . . dogs too - she'll chase those out of her field.

I'm getting away from my original question, however - and that was can the behaviour of this mare towards other horses in her space (field or otherwise) be ascribed to her being "lead mare" . . . and, so far, the consensus seems to be no and that it's more likely that she just doesn't like other horses in her space and will act accordingly (for whatever reason).

P

Sounds exactly like my horse. She is fine with dogs encountered on the trail or wherever, but woe betide the dog foolish enough to enter her field. It won't stay there for long.

 

[amandap]

Horses like that can be feeling vulerable or fearful and use aggression as a defense. It so often works, so is likely to get repeated and ingrained.

Its difficult when it's not your horse and I am not a behaviour expert but my take would be a full review of diet etc. with the emphasis on reducing stress, investigating gastric ulcers and gut upset.

 

[PolarSkye]

I am pretty sure such aggression is a combination of temperament, upbringing, and how we keep horses. It drives me crazy when I see young horses being kept more or less in isolation -- it does make me sad that my horse can't be in a herd, and if you don't socialize them as babies, you run the risk of consigning them to that fate for rest of their lives.

I completely agree . . . years ago Kal was turned out with a youngster who had been pretty much been on his own until that point. He was about five - but a very young five - turned out into a herd of mature horses - six of them. He had no idea how to behave . . . and the consequences were unfortunate.

You either run the risk that they get beat up, because their natural temperament isn't dominant/aggressive but they don't understand equine body language well enough to stay out of trouble; or they become bullies if they have more of a dominant temperament, because they don't understand how to move herdmates around without resorting to outright aggression.

Again, in complete agreement. Youngster mentioned above who was turned out with mine and several others ended up getting booted by mine because he simply didn't have any boundaries. Said youngster insisted on mounting my boy, constantly nibbling at his legs, pulling at his rug and generally harassing him. In the end, after warning him every way he knew how (flicking an ear, moving away, lifting a leg as a warning, waving said around, etc.), Kal kicked him - and kicked him every time said youngster overstepped the bounds. Youngster wasn't badly injured - a bit sore, out of work for a couple of weeks -but he learned . . . but youngster's owner was rather frosty with me for quite a long while. At the other end of the spectrum, I have a playful horse who doesn't know when to stop being annoying and has been kicked hard enough to require veterinary intervention three times in the four years I have owned him . . . I suspect he's just a bit thick .

In the case of my horse, it is just how she is. Back in 2006, I had her at a yard where the yard owner insisted that HER herd was so amazing that they could teach my horse, who was around 14 or 15 at the time, how to get along in a group, even though I was clear that the horse needed her own field adjacent to other horses. She put the horse with the herd, and a week later, announced as though it was some great epiphany, "Your horse is really nasty to other horses." I was a little like, "No sh ** t, Sherlock."

But because she is lovely and pleasant to be around so long as you have two legs, I just deal.

LOL .

P

 

[texas]

I had one lead mare, who the others all loved. Others got put in their place on introduction and that was that. I also had one, who I wouldn't have called a lead mare, just mega grumpy. The second one didn't like being told what to do and liked her own space, which didn't mix well with the first one - even though they got on fine with a fence in between. I wouldn't have thought that the lead mares job would be to dispatch another horse, but maybe the one you are talking about is like my grumpy one. If I hadn't separated the two I have no doubt there would have been serious injury or worse as neither was going to give in - this became clear within 30 seconds of letting them both into a large paddock together! Grumpy mare was fine with a very submissive miniature companion I eventually got her because she didn't want to be alone either *rolls eyes*.

On a slight side note, one of mine is not a natural leader and when forced into that role will send the other horse in first to wherever they have to go rather than leading

 

[fburton]

However - owner has been told that her mare is a "lead mare" and as, such, her job in the wild would be to despatch weak, elderly and infirm horses so the herd can keep keep moving.

I'm struggling to find any other anecdotal evidence that this is how "lead" mares in the wild behave. I have heard of broodmares killing another mare's foal . . . ditto stallions. But I'm not familiar with this behaviour as described and ascribed.

Neither have I read anything like that in the scientific literature (which I actively try to keep abreast of), nor heard it from people I know who have spent time studying horse behaviour professionally.

 

[PolarSkye]

Neither have I read anything like that in the scientific literature (which I actively try to keep abreast of), nor heard it from people I know who have spent time studying horse behaviour professionally.

That was my thinking too . . . and, so far, I've not read anything on here (or anywhere else) to the contrary. Good to know.

As it stands, the mare is being appropriately managed by her owner - and perhaps she is just overly fond of her personal space for whatever reason - lack of appropriate socialization prior to current owner buying her, a nasty run-in with another horse in her early life, etc.

P

 

[Urban Horse]

Neither have I read anything like that in the scientific literature (which I actively try to keep abreast of), nor heard it from people I know who have spent time studying horse behaviour professionally.

Ah life used to be so simple... we just worked with the horse that was in front of us, then some American by the name of Monty introduced us to his theories of Lead Mares, backed by his childhood observations. Lead mares dealt out punishment by sending away to a vunerable position on the extremities of the herd and decided on the route the herd would take... a sort of benevolent dictatoress.

Then some ethologists came along and said "Well, that's almost right, but in truth it's the lower ranking mares who surround the lead mare that deal with the punishment and sending away.... not the lead mare herself." After which Andy Beck of W.H.E.E.P said that actually horses aren't sent to the edge of the herd as a punishment, only when they reach sexual maturity as a preventative measure to stop interbreeding between herd members.... and even then, they not really sent away, rather they're just not protected against stallions looking for mares to increase their own harem herd. It looked like Lead Mare's role was getting smaller by the day.

Then an Italian ethologist, whose name long escapes me, put foward his theory that instead of running the herd on a daily basis, she actually took advice from other mares about such things as investigating strangers and finding water... in the same way that Captain Kirk used his science and engineering officers on the Enterprise.

Then some students from down under said "Actually, to send a horse away, you don't need to be a Lead Mare, just a radio controlled toy car!" This move infuriated some of Monrty's followers who claimed that it was undermining the work he had done in the past... Sadly they gave no thought to Lead Mares everywhere, who, through the advances of technology were facing redundancy worldwide.

The final straw came quite recently when a German Ethologist (A professor, so she must know what she's talking about) said that her studies had shown that Lead Mares played only a minor role in herd life, and that in fact, the lowest ranking mare in the herd could, and often did, initiate herd movement and direction. So that was it for Lead Mare... I think she retired quietly to Eastbourne, living in a small flat and spending her days sitting in one of those seaside shelters, dreaming of the time that she ruled the herd with a rod of iron.

The strange thing is that the concept of the Alpha Mare concept is now so deeply set in our conciousness that we can't remember back to the days when we'd never heard of them... nearly every one of my U.S. horsey contacts has one. In fact any posings about mare misbehaviour or resistance is met with the line 'Oh, she's an alpha Mare.... that's why you can't do a/b/c with her.', and yet in all my years with horses, I have yet to meet one.... perhaps they're far more common in the States, with British mares being far more reserved and ladylike.

I've never read of, or encountered anything like the behaviour described i.e. Lead Mares killing lower rankers who have the misfortune to fall sickly or ill, or who, for one reason or another can't keep with the herd. (In fact a group of feral Koniks I've been watching had a mare that did injure herself a while back... the remainder of the herd just left her behind). It's certainly not unknown for stallions to kill sickly foals, or the foals of pregnant mares that they had rounded up to join their harem... or come to that each other, but these instances are comparitively rare. To be honest, given the comparatively shorter life span of feral and wild horses when compared to domestic, I would tend to think that accidents, predation, hunger and thirst kill far more horses than ever grow old enough to be a drag on the herd.

 

[fburton]

Ah life used to be so simple... we just worked with the horse that was in front of us, ...

Some of us still do that, despite what we may have read about the "theory". :wink3: And I totally agree with your summary.

 

[Hetsmum]

I have yet to read a post from Urban Horse that I don't want to say *LIKE* to! ^^^ and this is why!

 

[DJ]

I have yet to read a post from Urban Horse that I don't want to say *LIKE* to! ^^^ and this is why!

I was just thinking the self same thing, husband and I are sat here in fits of laughter ... **applauds Urban Horse** ... well written !!

 

[amandap]

Well I had no idea "Monty" was solely responsible for the term 'lead mare' and the various meanings it has now, but I had a long break away from the horse world and many trainers used the term when I rejoined it. Perhaps that explains the vitriole and contempt thrown at him and those of us who have learned useful things from him?

 

[Caol Ila]

The term "lead mare" has been around for as long as I can remember.


In most domestic herds, I've watched the established herd keeping the new horse(s) out of the herd for a while. Why they do this, I'm not going to say, and I don't think it's particularly applicable to training or to feral herds, where random horses aren't thrown together in a small space. The whole aggression/dominance hierarchy thing is much more obvious and a part of herd dynamics in situations where horses are enclosed and competing for limited resources.

I also have heard people with a mare OR gelding who they can't handle blame it on the horse being the "alpha" or "dominant." And it's true! The horse is dominant. Over them. It might not be with other horses or other people, but if it's got its owner's number, well, there you go.

Either way, whoever told the OP's friend that her mare was a "lead mare" who would be attacking weak members of the herd was talking b o l l o ck s.

 

[amandap]

Either way, whoever told the OP's friend that her mare was a "lead mare" who would be attacking weak members of the herd was talking b o l l o ck s.

I agree! lol

I did mean 'lead mare' in the context in this thread btw.

 

[fburton]

Well I had no idea "Monty" was solely responsible for the term 'lead mare' and the various meanings it has now, but I had a long break away from the horse world and many trainers used the term when I rejoined it. Perhaps that explains the vitriole and contempt thrown at him and those of us who have learned useful things from him?

I read Urban Horse's piece as tongue firmly in cheek. It made me chuckle anyway. The accuracy of the details can be questioned, but that isn't really relevant. It's the overall summary message that is spot on, imo - that the idea of "lead mare" varies depending on the individual point of view (and prejudices) of the commentator. I think it just reinforces the caveat about labelling that you made earlier.

(Of course, if UH had dissed a certain Welsh ethologist in this way, I would have been livid! )

 

[amandap]

I read Urban Horse's piece as tongue firmly in cheek. It made me chuckle anyway. The accuracy of the details can be questioned, but that isn't really relevant. It's the overall summary message that is spot on, imo - that the idea of "lead mare" varies depending on the individual point of view (and prejudices) of the commentator. I think it just reinforces the caveat about labelling that you made earlier.

(Of course, if UH had dissed a certain Welsh ethologist in this way, I would have been livid! )

Ah yes but my experiences with the 'blame Monty for everything bad in horsemanship' faction have not been pleasant and very personal, so I am sensitized to UH's constant reference only to Monty as the root of all evil. I am not livid, just bored and fed up with that approach.

Now, which Ethologist do you mean?

 

[Blurr]

(Of course, if UH had dissed a certain Welsh ethologist in this way, I would have been livid! )

I was reading and enjoying UH's post and praying that THAT Welsh ethologist would not be mentioned or I'd have been up in arms too.

 

[fburton]

Now, which Ethologist do you mean?

How may Welsh ethologists do you know of? I was referring to the forthright and opinionated Lucy Rees, natch: author of The Horse's Mind who went to live and train in Spain, and who - according to http://lucyrees.ponymadbooklovers.co.uk - "uses a natural approach, similar to that of Monty Roberts, working with a horse's natural instincts rather than against them" (so who doesn't??).

 

[Blurr]

Lucy Rees, ... similar to that of Monty Roberts, ).

Now, who's brave enough to tell Lucy she's similar to Monty???

Whenever I think of Monty (and other horse training cowboys) I'm reminded of Fletcher in The Outlaw Josey Wales, "Don't p 1 5 5 down my back and tell me it's raining". It's not necessarily that their technique doesn't work, not that they don't get the results they want, but that either they don't know the real reason why they're getting results OR they do know and they're just not saying. Either way, I recommended waterproofs

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Of course. This is why I have a bee in my bonnet about liveries/yards working together. A horse with that history is a particular problem and there is no wonder feelings run high and great care and thought must be taken about management.

Part of the problem is that horses don't realise that when domesticated, they often wear metal shoes, which is like equipping them with a sledge-hammer. That combined with small turnout areas in constantly changing groups (I won't say herds) leads to trouble when the horses are really only doing what horses do.

 

[amandap]

Now, who's brave enough to tell Lucy she's similar to Monty???

I didn't understand fburton's point to mean that exactly.

Part of the problem is that horses don't realise that when domesticated, they often wear metal shoes, which is like equipping them with a sledge-hammer. That combined with small turnout areas in constantly changing groups (I won't say herds) leads to trouble when the horses are really only doing what horses do.

I think this relates to the question fburton asked about who doesn't work with the horses' natural inclinations. I don't separate training ethos from mamnagement as, to me, if a horse is stressed in it's life it is asking a lot to work well for us.

The differences come from our understanding of the horse and our attitude to them as a non human species I think. When I was a child and young woman my experience was you made the horse do what you want with the whip or other cooerive methods. This was long before I had heard of any USA influences.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

The differences come from our understanding of the horse and our attitude to them as a non human species I think. When I was a child and young woman my experience was you made the horse do what you want with the whip or other cooerive methods. This was long before I had heard of any USA influences.

Then you had very different early experiences from me. My early teaching, in the 60s was that you didn't stand any nonsense but worked *with* the horse to get what you wanted without putting yourself or the horse, or any bystanders, at risk. My first RI (at RS) was a brilliant horsewoman, although not as brave a rider as her husband, who was very conscious that the horses were her livelihood and that she was responsible for other people's children and their safety when they were on her yard. She knew every horse & pony inside out and always worked with their temperaments to get the best out of them.
Later I was lucky enough to get to know a farmer who had worked with horses all his life. He was considerably older than me and again knew his horses inside out, used them as hunters, show horses and for the RS and RDA. Again, he wouldn't stand any nonsense but was always fair and worked with the horse, rather than forcing any issue. He was always quiet around them, or indeed any other animal.
I wonder what went wrong in the time between those eras and the 'discovery' of NH?