Don't be fooled by "DEFRA approved" AI Centres...

[AndyPandy]

This is just a little warning...

If you're planning on sending your mare out to stud, or to an AI centre, you'll obviously want to make sure that the place is run well.

So, you may be looking around and see that a stud somewhere is a "DEFRA approved AI centre". Well, I've been speaking with DEFRA for the last month about this, and according to them, there is no such thing as a "DEFRA approved AI centre".

The only approval system that DEFRA runs (according to DEFRA), is one for freezing and export of semen, and for isolation facilities.

So either, these studs that advertise themselves as "DEFRA approved" are lying, or DEFRA are so incompetent that the people in charge of equine AI policy don't even know what they are doing... neither of which would surprise me.

Right, rant over. Any comments?

 

[brackenhappy]

is BEF ok????

 

[AndyPandy]

BEF is fine, but if you look at the requirements for becoming a BEF approved stud, they're not that stringent - but I guess it's a good indicator that they're doing something right. Make sure it's appropriate to the year though. A 2006 BEF BQM doesn't mean much if it's 2008.

 

[DollyPentreath]

Interesting Andypandy, so what should we be looking for? BEF, BEVA or other approvals? Just curious and thanks for the warning.

 

[AndyPandy]

BEF's BQM is certainly a good start. You may have seen a previous post where I discussed a vet who had been in touch with me... very briefly - A BEVA approved AI vet rang me and asked why he wasn't having any luck with AI - it turned out he was doing ridiculous things with the semen, and even the most fertile stallion's semen would have difficulty getting a mare pregnant.

So, in my opinion, and it is just MY opinion, BQM is a good start. BEVA is meaningless, as is the seemingly fictitious DEFRA approval system for AI centres and vets.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Good thread AP.
I would like to add, after seeing a few studs do the BQM, all it means is the stud keeps good records and has the right facilities, it doesn't neccessarily mean they are good at what they are doing

 

[AndyPandy]

You're right. The BQM is more about records than ability and efficacy. I've now seen two studs with the BQM that really don't know what they're doing.

See what staff these AI centres have. If their blurb says "we've got two DEFRA AI technicians on site...." or similar, it means that they can legally inseminate the mare, but it certainly doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. Look for centres with a RESIDENT repro vet, theriogenologist, or reproductive physiologist

 

[AndyPandy]

Further to that post...
Having now read about BH's experiences (OK, So I called the Stud again... thread in Breeding forum) with a stud which has been awarded the BQM, I would say all of these systems are pretty meaningless. Find a good AI centre with a good reputation, and onsite specialist staff. There are plenty, but do your homework.

 

[volatis]

I very rarely send my mares away to stud now haing had one mare treated appallingly by a stud which now boasts a BQM. If that place can get one, they are not worth the paper they are written on. I try and have all my mares AI'd at home

 

[luckilotti]

i've found this a really eye opening thread! thanks Andy Pandy. i've been on the site to look more about the BQM and its really suprised me.
i've been trying to go off personal recommendations with studs, but then again - its all personal. i know a member on here seems to think a lot of one stud, but i havent even looked what stallions they are standing as i have heard bad about the place (has the BQM also)

 

[AndyPandy]

While I'm in rant mode - many studs that have the BQM say "very few studs have the BQM because it's so difficult, and the requirements are so stringent.." or something similar. This is NOT the case. VERY FEW studs bother applying for the BQM - 19 have been awarded and two are pending - and that's in 3 years. And a large chunk of studs who have the BQM are owned and run by the committee in charge of the BQM! What a ridiculous system!

 

[springfallstud]

Very interesting post. I no longer send my mares to stud, first ever one we used was Broadstone stud and we were 100% happy with everything, the next stud i sent my mare too was run by someone highly regarded in the breeding world and my mare came home a complete mess and head shy and NOT in foal, from that day onwards we have used our vet, more costly but worth it for peace of mind

 

[Anastasia]

AndyPandy I would agree regarding the BQM, also the cost involved...........and the fact you are paying how much per year and for what??!!?? I can not see any benefit as a Studfarm to go down the BQM route as you are paying each year for this and getting what in return??

Its all about record keeping etc, it has nothing to do with success rates of how your horses are looked after etc.

Every year we have done "in-hand" covering with our stallions, we have our own mares and mares come to our stud. ALL the horses are treated like they were our own and go back home in the same condition, if not better than when they arrived. AND amazingly one horse owner this year gave us more money than we were due as a "Thank You" for taking such high quality care of her mare.

In contrast, we sent two mares with foals away for insemination. Now granted the weather this summer has been awful compared to usual for horses being outside....... However......... one foal in particular came back in very poor condition, and both mares came back with mud fever................one so severe that she is still being treated, and was on antibiotics for several days. These mares get re-scanned tomorrow and we see whether they are in foal or not.

The new owners of the filly (as we had sold her at a couple of days old) came to see her last week and were devastated about how she looked compared to those foals we have at home................thankfully they have purchased from us before and know the quality and condition of our horses!! We now have them on very specialised feed and supplements to get condition back on them via a nutritionist.

Moral of the story...............we are NOT putting our mares and foals away again. This was the first year and will be the last. Next time they will be kept at home and we are in the throws of setting up for AI for next year.

Now I also did the Twemlows AI Technician course and got a mare we had at home in foal this year, and next year I plan to get more experience, along with help from a vet in Aberdeen. I have people wanting to come to me with their mares, but I am telling them that I am in no way experienced and plan to try on my own mares first and then see how it goes. I will not be advocating at all at being a specialist in this field.

 

[AndyPandy]

That attitude is admirable, Anastasia.

Part of the problem is people completing the AI course, and then going straight into studwork believing that they are God's gift to horse breeding. A three day course does not give you the knowledge and experience required to run a successful breeding operation.

If the BQM was worth anything, recently qualified AI techs, and the studs they run would NOT be able to get the award, because they simply don't have the experience.

 

[Anastasia]

I agree AndyPandy.......it takes a lot of experience in AI to call yourself "qualified". I am interested in knowing more but would require hands on experience at another Stud or AI centre with much knowledge, so that you can see what somebody else does and learn from everything you see.

A 3 day course at Twemlows does not give me the right to say I am experienced......far from that........i am just a newbie in this field.............but would like to learn much more from the right people.......

 

[Tempi]

[ QUOTE ]
So either, these studs that advertise themselves as "DEFRA approved" are lying, or DEFRA are so incompetent that the people in charge of equine AI policy don't even know what they are doing... neither of which would surprise me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the incompetance of some people these days goes beyond me, so i wouldnt be surprised if either of the above were true........

 

[Shark]

It is shocking how many people have had such bad times at some studs I am constantly having to reassure clients who have had really bad experiences and always at well known, thought to be good studs. I feel these studs should be named and shamed but without Government licencing it will sadly only be by word of mouth.

However I too have completed 2 courses successfully at Twemlows and along with over 20 years of breeding experience have an on average 97% success rate with my stallions and chilled semen each year and have happy clients, we are not all incompetent and non caring studs but unfortunately the ones that are just seem to keep getting away with it!