Double Bridles at Elementary

[Stoxx]

At the wknd I took my boy out to have a go at a couple of elementaries, only unaff to see how we are getting on before I consider taking him aff.
I was quite shocked to see that all the other horses in the classes were in double bridles. Now i know this is allowed as per BD rules, but a few of the horses I felt weren't being ridden in them for the right reasons.
This led me on to thinking that a couple of years ago BD changed the rules so that sitting trot was not compulsory at Elementary level, I happen to agree with this for various reasons. So if a horse and rider aren't expected to be able to work for long periods of time at sitting trot then should they really be let loose with a double bridle?
Elementary is a level I consider to be within most people's reach (with the correct training and hard work), however I do think that perhaps some people move on a little too quickly as they can ride their horse in a double bridle and cover up a few of the things they were having difficulty with at novice level. Surely the horse should be working in self carriage properly before a double is used.
Therefore in my eyes surely it would be more fitting for doubles to be allowed at medium level and above.
This is just my opinion and I was wondering what others thought?

 

[Jo C]

I do kind of agree however my pony goes so much better in his double compared to his snaffle as he is so much happier (strangely) in it mainly I think because he spent all his showing years in his double. I do realise I am a strange case though!

Edited to say I'm not sure a double really covers up anything though, a good judge should be able to see those kind of things, as it will just cause problems elsewhere imho

 

[Stoxx]

Jo C, I appreciate that some people do use them for the right reasons and are at a level where their horse is ready to accept them, so in a way I suppose that is why BD allow them at elementary.
I just feel that some horses need protecting from the riders who only use doubles to 'keep them on the bit' and as extra brakes......

 

[kerilli]

i agree that a decent judge can tell a horse that's in a double for the wrong reasons, and will hopefully slam the rider with dreadful scores!
if someone's horse's back isn't correct enough to allow them to sit to the trot, or their seat's not good enough, i totally agree that they shouldn't be using a double bridle.

 

[Jo C]

I do agree however I think the line has to come somewhere and if it moves up to medium to some extent you are just changing the boundaries. Sitting trot is a good example I think, if you speak to some judges they will say the standard at medium has dropped since this change has been brought in. It used to weed out the people who couldn't do sitting trot at elem now these people are having a go at medium but are bouncing around all over the place doing the higher level movements. (I include myself in these people

) I do however understand why the rules were changed and to a certain extent I agree with them. I am really playing devils advocate here sorry.

 

[Partoow]

Totally agee with you on this one it drives me nuts the thought process that sometimes does [or does not] go into making these 'rules'
I personally do not believe that double bridles are required full stop.
I have advanced horses thats do all the work .. up to passage and piaffe in a snaffle and like the fact that i can now ride my advanced horses in national competitions in a snaffle.
Dressage is about the development of the rider as well as the horses' and you are spot on there is no sense in allowing a rider to rise to the trot which really means that they have yet to develope sufficient suppleness and co-ordnation and balance [see position post] and yet allow them to have a double bridle to haul their horses head in. People on here get all hot and bothered about 'roll kur' but think little of this issue which for me effects far more poor horses than Roll kur.

 

[Halfstep]

[ QUOTE ]
People on here get all hot and bothered about 'roll kur' but think little of this issue which for me effects far more poor horses than Roll kur.

[/ QUOTE ]


Very well said Partoow! Agree completely with what you've just posted; many thanks. Baaa (lol).

 

[Stoxx]

Partoow, I have read some of your previous posts, and you are obviously v experienced and knowledgable, so I am pleased that you share my opinion on this. I've heard plenty of people say 'oh i'm just going to stick him/ her in a double and go out at elementary' just to shortcut the actual hard work it takes to go about things in the right way.

 

[CSYMolly]

I agree with you but then actually it is totally dependant on the horse. Some are well schooled but just go that bit better in a double. Molly tends to go short in the neck and untill I know I can always get her infront of my leg I am not going to try a double as I know she will duck behind the vertical. I intend on trying to stay in a snaffle for as long as I can but who knows what the future will bring!!

 

[lifeslemons]

[ QUOTE ]
I do kind of agree however my pony goes so much better in his double compared to his snaffle as he is so much happier (strangely) in it

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. I used to be really against them at the lower level for all the reasons listed above, but mine thrives in one in comparison to a snaffle. Until I made this discovery, I also felt they were unecessary because their real purpose is greater collection for the more advanced lateral movements. I have noticed at elementary/intermediate eventing that many neglect the hind end/engine when they are in a double bridle, which creates a horrible picture behind the leg. (myself probably included in that

)

 

[Stoxx]

CSYMolly, yes I agree it is dependant on the horse and rider combination, I guess I should have made my point clearer, which is that I think there is an inconsistancy with the BD rules at this level.

 

[burtie]

Whilst most horses don't need to wear a double bridle at elementary, equally most horses shouldn't have their faces clamped shut the from the moment a bit goes in, this seems to be standard practice amongst dressage professionals and the only time I see a horse in H and H without a flash on is normally an amateur.

However I also know a lot of amateurs who will never be Carl Hester or top riders who just find it a little bit easier to ride their horse quietly at elementary if ridden in a double, yes it's down to their failings as a rider, but as long as means quieter hands I don't have a problem with it.

Of course there is also a lot who ride badly in a double but chances are they'd be no better in snaffle.

 

[Tempi]

I do understand some peoples horses go better in a double, but so many people out competing think 'its elementary, lets stick my horse in a double because it looks good and i can'

I hope to train Archie up through the levels in just his snaffle, as he has quite a small mouth so it will be hard to find a double to fit him if i ever do need to.

 

[Partoow]

It is possible to wear a flash without it being 'clamped' , thats the first point i cant agree with , the other is the point exactly... a person that cannot do or rather is not expected to be able to 'sit to the trot' is unlikeley to have hands quiet enough to use the double bridle. Indeed i frequently see it being totally incorrectly used, the 'curb' rein much too tight. It is supposed to be used to aid refinement if you cant sit how can you use this bit in this 'refined'this way? Also a snaffle used in a slightly coarse manner will have far less consequences in terms of discomfort that the coarse use of a double bridle. The fact is that a double bridle is not required at this level.

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

I must say we were discussing this the other day saying that my horse would go better in a double bridle as he can be strong and works better in the pelham i jump him in !! but what is the point in putting a double in and covering up the problems we already have - better to work with the snaffle and when he is ready maybe at medium level or higher then can have a double !!

ITs a quick fix for a lot of people which will backfire on them higher up the levels !!

 

[_jetset_]

I am afraid I am one of the people who rides my horse at unaffiliated in a double

I started working Hannah in a double at home, and felt she was a lot more responsive in it and also did not have to have a flash on (she gets her tongue over the bit when stressed or excited). I felt she was going really well in it, and started taking her out to elementary competitions unaffil in it too as I wanted to see whether it would have the same effects in a competition atmosphere as it did at home, which it did.

Rebecca x

 

[Stoxx]

It's not really the fact that it was unaffiliated and there was people using doubles that surprised me, it was just that it seemed to be being used as a standard thing. As P_G said, it almost seemed like people were using them just because they could.
Obviously some horses will work well and be ridden well in a double at elementary. I just feel that at novice level you aren't expected to be able to sit to the trot and therefore you also aren't expected to be experienced enough to use a double correctly and effectively. So therefore why is elementary any different?
I suppose when BD changed the rules to allow rising trot they were opening the level up to some people who previously wouldn't have had a go, but if they stop the use of doubles they would anger a lot of people who do use them.

 

[burtie]

[ QUOTE ]
a person that cannot do or rather is not expected to be able to 'sit to the trot' is unlikeley to have hands quiet enough to use the double bridle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really cannot agree with that statement, sitting trot for many riders or the more mature age struggle with sitting trot, I struggle on some horses yet it would never effect my hand or my leg for that matter. Maybe this is where coming to Dressage recently from a Showjumping background I have a different perpesctive. I do accept that a good sitting trot is better for good collection, extension and lateral work though. To have good hands, balance is much more important IMO than sitting to the trot

 

[_jetset_]

To be honest, there are a lot of things that people use just because they can... It annoys me when I see some Prelim riders at BD competitions with spurs on and very insecure lower legs.

I have also seen quite a few people using doubles at elementary level and using them incorrectly... which is just crazy. If your horse goes well in a snaffle at that level, then I would rather work them in a snaffle as opposed to putting a double in for the hell of it.

When I first started using the double I had several lessons with my trainer on how to use it etc etc... the time I spent doing this is something that will always benefit me now, and I would rather know how to use a piece of equipment correctly or not use it at all.

 

[Stoxx]

I would rather know how to use a piece of equipment correctly or not use it at all.


Ditto!!

 

[_jetset_]

 

[Partoow]

So if 'sitting trot is SO irrelevant' why do we have it at all?
Why do great riding academies of the world, i.e the Spanish Riding school, deem it necessary to concentrate on this in development of the rider for YEARS. Why then does it become compulsory at the higher levels if it is nothing and it is is possible to have 'good' hands and 'balance' without being able to do it? Besides the point was about double bridles , fine stay rising stay 'stiff', just dont inflict a double bridle on the poor horse.
I am no spring chicken and neither is one of my65yr old clients but , funnily enough we , through 'training' maintain the suppleness and co ordination required for correct riding. Indeed can we really say we can ride if we cannot sit?? Without being able to sit i simply cannot see how it is possible to ride correct transitions???? or even prepare the horses back to accept the rider adequately for canter. The suppleness the sitting trot ensures a correct following of movement in the canter by opening of the hips and pelvis. Without this 'base' on which you contact and connect your, your horse, your seat, then you do end up riding on your hands.

 

[JLav]

I'm also one who finds it bizarre that we allow riders to use the double at Elementary level when according to the rules they do not have to have a good enough seat to do the test sitting.

I think we should either not allow the double until Medium or go back to the sitting trot at Elementary.

 

[not_with_it]

TBH There are more people who use a double at unaffiliated than affiliated. I very rarely see people using a double when Im out and about.