'Downgrading' from a kimberwicke to a snaffle

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

Hi! I lease my pony Lucky and since I have been leasing him he has been ridden in a kimberwicke. I don't think he needs that much bit and am looking to downgrade him to a snaffle. What I have available is a d ring rubber mouth snaffle. I have lunged him in it before and he went well in it but when I get on him he just tries to run through me and braces on the bit. He brings his neck up and if I try to take some contact he just keeps bracing. What would be the best way to reteach him how to take a snaffle bit after being conditioned (and dulled) to the leverage of the kimberwicke. He did go well in the kimberwicke but I could barely hold a true contact with it and if I used my hands it felt to him like a correction. Before you attack me- It was not my choice to ride him in a kimberwicke! I lease- don't own! So that is why I am trying to transition back and fill in this hole in his training.

 

[Cortez]

There is nothing whatsoever wrong in riding in a kimblewick if that is what the pony prefers and is comfortable in. If he's not comfortable in a snaffle (and a very large number of horses are not) why on earth would you want to subject him to that? Snaffles are not "better", and curb action bits are not "severe": both can be torturous in the wrong hands. I wish more people would learn how to use their equipment.

P.S. If that is a picture of you and the pony, it's not a kimblewick it's an uttoxeter, and you can make it more adaptable by not putting the rein on the slots.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Personally I think that the Kimblewick (UK spelling but the same bit you are talking about) is a very under-rated bit. I have met horses that just didn't get on with snaffles - and several different types were tried - but were very happy in their Kimblewicks. Sometimes you do need to listen to the horse, if they are happy and go well in a bit, why change?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I just wanted to add, what a pretty horse he is.

 

[sbloom]

There will be answers that will help you specifically with bitting, but it may be worth looking at some other issues if you possibly can - I understand with a lease it may not be feasible but...

I want to point out two things (I'm a saddle fitter) - the saddle is long, it looks very long on him, though massive credit for putting it on properly behind the shoulder! This is unlikely to be helping him and, in part because it ends up so far "up" his croup, it's also low in front/high behind. This is putting your pelvis into a forward tilt and making you hollow your back which probably isn't very comfortable for either of you. You're sitting so nicely in alignment otherwise, but you're fighting the saddle. You could try (this is a random suggestion) putting some foam or felt or similar under the skirts to help support you more through your inner thigh so you don't drop forwards so much.

Then have a look at the shape of his neck. I know it's in part the plait (braid for you in the US lol) but he has a slight "break" in his neck between the second and third vertebra, which is a classic sign of a horse not taking the contact forwards, and indicates he's not really connected through his body.

Would you be happy to do a groundwork programme? Have a really good bodyworker come and see him? Perhaps change trainer? I have no idea of your situation, and changing to a snaffle should definitely help him, but you may need to look to change other things to have him work correctly in a snaffle which won't mask training issues as the bit you're using does (I had no idea it's a Uttoxeter!).

 

[scats]

Personally I think that the Kimblewick (UK spelling but the same bit you are talking about) is a very under-rated bit. I have met horses that just didn't get on with snaffles - and several different types wereqqq tried - but were very happy in their Kimblewicks. Sometimes you do need to listen to the horse, if they are happy and go well in a bit, why change?

Same here, huge fan of the kimblewick and have used them regularly since the early 90s on a variety of ponies. Millie wears hers for farm rides and fun rides.

 

[Tihamandturkey]

Hi OP your bit definitely is a Kimlewick - it's the Uttoxeter (otherwise known as slotted) version.

In the pic it's on the bottom slot which gives more poll pressure than the top one does.

As previous posters have said there is nothing wrong with this bit at all - just be extra careful to use light hands.

Don't think you mentioned which mouthpiece yours has - horses and ponies that have small mouths and or large tongues are often much more comfortable with the ported variety.

My mare certainly is and we use that form of this bit for hacking & fast work.

If you want to use a snaffle e.g. for schooling or dressage and your horse falls into the same category as mine you could maybe try a curved one which gives more room than a traditional single joint - I have a Korsteel curved loose ring which I use for lunging and schooling (sometimes - mare likes ported Pelham better for this though ?).

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

There is nothing whatsoever wrong in riding in a kimblewick if that is what the pony prefers and is comfortable in. If he's not comfortable in a snaffle (and a very large number of horses are not) why on earth would you want to subject him to that? Snaffles are not "better", and curb action bits are not "severe": both can be torturous in the wrong hands. I wish more people would learn how to use their equipment.

P.S. If that is a picture of you and the pony, it's not a kimblewick it's an uttoxeter, and you can make it more adaptable by not putting the rein on the slots.

Thank you! He has just never really went well in the snaffle and I have been careful to use the kimberwicke with light hands and have known it is a leverage bit. He goes well in the kimberwicke/uttoxeter, I have just had people comment on how it is a harsh bit blah blah.. You get the idea- keyboard 'animal activists' Thank you for your insight

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

Personally I think that the Kimblewick (UK spelling but the same bit you are talking about) is a very under-rated bit. I have met horses that just didn't get on with snaffles - and several different types were tried - but were very happy in their Kimblewicks. Sometimes you do need to listen to the horse, if they are happy and go well in a bit, why change?

Thank you!! I guess I was thinking to change because of people saying that it is an unkind bit and too harsh etc.. and felt pressured sort of. He does seem to like it and recently has been able to stretch down into it more

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

I just wanted to add, what a pretty horse he is.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love him so much!!

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

There will be answers that will help you specifically with bitting, but it may be worth looking at some other issues if you possibly can - I understand with a lease it may not be feasible but...

I want to point out two things (I'm a saddle fitter) - the saddle is long, it looks very long on him, though massive credit for putting it on properly behind the shoulder! This is unlikely to be helping him and, in part because it ends up so far "up" his croup, it's also low in front/high behind. This is putting your pelvis into a forward tilt and making you hollow your back which probably isn't very comfortable for either of you. You're sitting so nicely in alignment otherwise, but you're fighting the saddle. You could try (this is a random suggestion) putting some foam or felt or similar under the skirts to help support you more through your inner thigh so you don't drop forwards so much.

Then have a look at the shape of his neck. I know it's in part the plait (braid for you in the US lol) but he has a slight "break" in his neck between the second and third vertebra, which is a classic sign of a horse not taking the contact forwards, and indicates he's not really connected through his body.

Would you be happy to do a groundwork programme? Have a really good bodyworker come and see him? Perhaps change trainer? I have no idea of your situation, and changing to a snaffle should definitely help him, but you may need to look to change other things to have him work correctly in a snaffle which won't mask training issues as the bit you're using does (I had no idea it's a Uttoxeter!).

Thank you SO much for your insight!!! I have always tried to make sure I'm not interfering with his shoulder action after educating myself on it more and actually putting it into affect one ride and just feeling the difference- so thank you for that compliment!!! Glad someone noticed! Do you think that maybe some front foam shims put underneath the saddle next to my half-pad help with that? I agree it is long on him- he is one of the smaller horses out at my leasing barn so most of the tack is meant for the big horses. I feel other than the length the saddle fits him quite well and I use a memory foam half pad to help with any pressure points that could maybe be affecting him.

Yes! He is slightly broken at the third, I have been educating myself on that and how to help it- I believe it is from how people have ridden him in the past, not directing him to use his body correctly (Over bending his neck and obtaining false collection). The braid does make it look worse then it is! I have been doing lots of gentle lunging work with stretching and getting him more through with his hind end.

I just (a week and a half ago) had chiropractic out for him and she totally put him back into alignment- she said he must have fallen in the pasture and popped his ribs, pelvis, shoulder blades all out in the fall. I had been right to give him time off because I knew he wasn't feeling good enough to ride but everyone around me urged me to work through it because of the show coming up. (He is also so willing to please that if I hadn't listened to the subtle signs (tail swishes, head tosses, not accepting the bit as readily, not walking up to me in the pasture) I probably wouldn't have noticed.) But I am so glad we had the chiro out, he has mostly stopped dragging his toes and is now comfortable enough to stretch down and work with his back more! I really think I need to work on strengthening him and getting him to use his body correctly through lunging work, stretching. But the kimberwicke is what he has been ridden in most of his life and he does seem comfortable in it, but it might be masking training problems as you said. I will now be off lessons for the winter, but I really hadn't felt like I was making much progress with my trainer anyway, she had been too focused on preparing me for the show season rather than working on Lucky (My pony) and his strength and use of self. Side note! Lucky is 22 years old- so old habits and training is a bit hard to break but he is just recently learning how to relax and not be so nervous when riding and when around people. (He has had mistreatment before in his life) Thank you for your insight!!! It feels really good to tell someone who isn't in my barn these things. I feel like I am in a bit of a judgemental area where the asking of 'why' their horse is behaving that way is not the way they choose and will immediately punish without a second thought of why their horse acted out. Thank you!!

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

Hi OP your bit definitely is a Kimlewick - it's the Uttoxeter (otherwise known as slotted) version.

In the pic it's on the bottom slot which gives more poll pressure than the top one does.

As previous posters have said there is nothing wrong with this bit at all - just be extra careful to use light hands.

Don't think you mentioned which mouthpiece yours has - horses and ponies that have small mouths and or large tongues are often much more comfortable with the ported variety.

My mare certainly is and we use that form of this bit for hacking & fast work.

If you want to use a snaffle e.g. for schooling or dressage and your horse falls into the same category as mine you could maybe try a curved one which gives more room than a traditional single joint - I have a Korsteel curved loose ring which I use for lunging and schooling (sometimes - mare likes ported Pelham better for this though ?).

Thank you!! I am extra careful to use light hands with him as he is very sensitive! It has a single joint mouthpiece, I should look into a ported one!
Thank you!

 

[Tihamandturkey]

Thank you!! I am extra careful to use light hands with him as he is very sensitive! It has a single joint mouthpiece, I should look into a ported one!
Thank you!

You're very welcome - good luck with your lovely boy ?

 

[sbloom]

Thank you SO much for your insight!!! I have always tried to make sure I'm not interfering with his shoulder action after educating myself on it more and actually putting it into affect one ride and just feeling the difference- so thank you for that compliment!!! Glad someone noticed! Do you think that maybe some front foam shims put underneath the saddle next to my half-pad help with that? I agree it is long on him- he is one of the smaller horses out at my leasing barn so most of the tack is meant for the big horses. I feel other than the length the saddle fits him quite well and I use a memory foam half pad to help with any pressure points that could maybe be affecting him.

Yes! He is slightly broken at the third, I have been educating myself on that and how to help it- I believe it is from how people have ridden him in the past, not directing him to use his body correctly (Over bending his neck and obtaining false collection). The braid does make it look worse then it is! I have been doing lots of gentle lunging work with stretching and getting him more through with his hind end.

I just (a week and a half ago) had chiropractic out for him and she totally put him back into alignment- she said he must have fallen in the pasture and popped his ribs, pelvis, shoulder blades all out in the fall. I had been right to give him time off because I knew he wasn't feeling good enough to ride but everyone around me urged me to work through it because of the show coming up. (He is also so willing to please that if I hadn't listened to the subtle signs (tail swishes, head tosses, not accepting the bit as readily, not walking up to me in the pasture) I probably wouldn't have noticed.) But I am so glad we had the chiro out, he has mostly stopped dragging his toes and is now comfortable enough to stretch down and work with his back more! I really think I need to work on strengthening him and getting him to use his body correctly through lunging work, stretching. But the kimberwicke is what he has been ridden in most of his life and he does seem comfortable in it, but it might be masking training problems as you said. I will now be off lessons for the winter, but I really hadn't felt like I was making much progress with my trainer anyway, she had been too focused on preparing me for the show season rather than working on Lucky (My pony) and his strength and use of self. Side note! Lucky is 22 years old- so old habits and training is a bit hard to break but he is just recently learning how to relax and not be so nervous when riding and when around people. (He has had mistreatment before in his life) Thank you for your insight!!! It feels really good to tell someone who isn't in my barn these things. I feel like I am in a bit of a judgemental area where the asking of 'why' their horse is behaving that way is not the way they choose and will immediately punish without a second thought of why their horse acted out. Thank you!!

What an absolutely fabulous response, all credit to you for working on these things and sticking your neck out when your peers aren't seeing what you see.

Can you work with a good saddle fitter? Using shims needs a certain level of expertise to check that the balance is correct and the saddle doesn't end up bridging in small areas, equally lifting the front of this particular saddle will place more weight at the back in a place where he really can't bear weight. I would try the shims under the skirts to correct your pelvic alignment first . What a shame that saddles are seen as a central resource and he hasn't been specially fitted with an appropriate saddle with a smaller seat

At 22 years old he will be more limited in the amount he can change but never give up. If you let me have your email address I can send you the list of groundwork links I send to all my saddle fitting enquiries, something to work on over the winter

 

[Squeak]

Just thought it might be worth mentioning that if it was a straight bar rubber snaffle that you tried then it might be worth trying a metal, jointed or lozenge etc snaffle. The rubber straight bar is one of the mildest bit and is often used for sensitive horses or horses that aren't confident taking up the contact. Some horses can end up leaning on it, like yours did, so it might be that a different snaffle could have different results and if he's not comfortable in the kimblewick then they could still be worth a go.

Also just wanted to say how gorgeous he is!

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

Just thought it might be worth mentioning that if it was a straight bar rubber snaffle that you tried then it might be worth trying a metal, jointed or lozenge etc snaffle. The rubber straight bar is one of the mildest bit and is often used for sensitive horses or horses that aren't confident taking up the contact. Some horses can end up leaning on it, like yours did, so it might be that a different snaffle could have different results and if he's not comfortable in the kimblewick then they could still be worth a go.

Also just wanted to say how gorgeous he is!

Thank you!!

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

What an absolutely fabulous response, all credit to you for working on these things and sticking your neck out when your peers aren't seeing what you see.

Can you work with a good saddle fitter? Using shims needs a certain level of expertise to check that the balance is correct and the saddle doesn't end up bridging in small areas, equally lifting the front of this particular saddle will place more weight at the back in a place where he really can't bear weight. I would try the shims under the skirts to correct your pelvic alignment first . What a shame that saddles are seen as a central resource and he hasn't been specially fitted with an appropriate saddle with a smaller seat

At 22 years old he will be more limited in the amount he can change but never give up. If you let me have your email address I can send you the list of groundwork links I send to all my saddle fitting enquiries, something to work on over the winter

I'm just trying to learn as much as I can!! And help my precious boy out!

Unfortunately, I can't right now, but if I have the chiropracter out again she was able to fit my western saddle and showed me how to put in shims for my western one.
That totally makes sense, fix one thing but still cause harm on the other.
I have some foam that would be perfect!! Thank you!! I know.. It's just picking one that fits ok and that's what you get :/
Yes very true, but he is spry with his half Arabian bloodlines!! I will message you mine, I greatly appreciate your knowledge!!

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

If he likes the kimblewick you could try a magic snaffle it's got a ported mouth piece but just rings like a snaffle, I rode my arab in one for years it was the only bit he would tolerate for a long time, I basically got him to accept a contact in it then once he was going well I tried a few different bits and he was fine.

Sometimes it's all about finding something they can get confidence from and working with it then other bits seem to be tolerated later on.

His really lovely ?

 

[Spotherisk]

He is lovely and you sound very thoughtful and kind. It may just be the photo but the bit does look very low in his mouth?

 

[sbloom]

He is lovely and you sound very thoughtful and kind. It may just be the photo but the bit does look very low in his mouth?

Agreed, I hadn't spotted that.

 

[Northern Hare]

Well done on the progress you’ve made with your lovely horse!

Ref his bit, it’s difficult to see clearly from the photo, but it looks like the bit may be sitting a bit low in Lucky’s mouth, so that would be worth checking out?

Also, to help find an alternative bit and to narrow down what he will go well in, can you try removing the curb chain from your kimblewick bit, and see how he feels in that? If he goes well, then can you then attach the rein to the rings of the bit, rather than through one of the slots? That way there’d be no leverage left on the bit.

If he goes well in that, it might be that a hanging cheek snaffle, with whatever mouthpiece your kimblewick has - I’m assuming it may be a metal straight bar, possibly with a port?

I had a similar thing with my retired horse. Once we’d finished competing, we used to enjoy lots of hacking, but he could be very strong. In the end, I tried him an old Pelham bit that I had. He absolutely loved it and went so well in it - even with no curb chain and the rein attached to the main ring. So effectively just a hanging cheek snaffle! I just wished I’d discovered that when we were competing - I think that was about the only bit I hadn’t tried him in for the dressage.

Good luck!

 

[Elno]

Thank you!! I am extra careful to use light hands with him as he is very sensitive! It has a single joint mouthpiece, I should look into a ported one!
Thank you!

A broken mouth piece with a leverage bit is not ideal because of how the bit will work in a horse mouth. You risk quite a severe nut cracker action on the lower jaw with rein contact which might explain why you find him so sensitive. I second looking into either a ported one or a straight one, and I also agree with others who use Kimblewicks. I've had several horses in the past who went very well in theirs and preferred it to other bits ?

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

A broken mouth piece with a leverage bit is not ideal because of how the bit will work in a horse mouth. You risk quite a severe nut cracker action on the lower jaw with rein contact which might explain why you find him so sensitive. I second looking into either a ported one or a straight one, and I also agree with others who use Kimblewicks. I've had several horses in the past who went very well in theirs and preferred it to other bits ?

I think I will get a ported one as soon as I can get it! Thank you everyone!

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

If he likes the kimblewick you could try a magic snaffle it's got a ported mouth piece but just rings like a snaffle, I rode my arab in one for years it was the only bit he would tolerate for a long time, I basically got him to accept a contact in it then once he was going well I tried a few different bits and he was fine.

Sometimes it's all about finding something they can get confidence from and working with it then other bits seem to be tolerated later on.

His really lovely ?

Thank you!!! I will for sure look in to that!!!

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

He is lovely and you sound very thoughtful and kind. It may just be the photo but the bit does look very low in his mouth?

Thank you!!It was definitely too low- Last minute bridling at a fast paced show- I noticed it after the class and was surprised how unbothered he was, he is such a sweetheart <3 I included some more little pictures to show that he can be more of an uphill horse (sorry about the blurryness- screenshots from videos)

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

Well done on the progress you’ve made with your lovely horse!

Ref his bit, it’s difficult to see clearly from the photo, but it looks like the bit may be sitting a bit low in Lucky’s mouth, so that would be worth checking out?

Also, to help find an alternative bit and to narrow down what he will go well in, can you try removing the curb chain from your kimblewick bit, and see how he feels in that? If he goes well, then can you then attach the rein to the rings of the bit, rather than through one of the slots? That way there’d be no leverage left on the bit.

If he goes well in that, it might be that a hanging cheek snaffle, with whatever mouthpiece your kimblewick has - I’m assuming it may be a metal straight bar, possibly with a port?

I had a similar thing with my retired horse. Once we’d finished competing, we used to enjoy lots of hacking, but he could be very strong. In the end, I tried him an old Pelham bit that I had. He absolutely loved it and went so well in it - even with no curb chain and the rein attached to the main ring. So effectively just a hanging cheek snaffle! I just wished I’d discovered that when we were competing - I think that was about the only bit I hadn’t tried him in for the dressage.

Good luck!

Yes! it was low- last minute bridling by my wonderful mom at the horse show- she doesn't exactly understand the ... intricacies of the horse world And I had to rush into my class, lol! But he tolerated it so well, such a sweetie <3

That is such a great idea!! I absolutely should try that! The kimberwicke seems very adjustable per horse in that sense. It is a broken mouth piece but I am looking into purchasing one with a low port for him <3

Really interesting!!! Good to know!

 

[Mr.KnowItAllArabian]

Everyone: Is this the sort of bit that many of you have recommended? Port- solid mouth Kimberwicke? Dover Saddlery® Uxeter Kimberwicke Bit | Dover Saddlery
Just trying to make sure we are all on the same page!!! Thank you everyone for taking the time to give such valuable advice and real life stories <3 I will be trying many things along with continuing to work with an equine chiropractic etc- helping him get stronger and correct incorrect training!

 

[asmp]

If he likes the kimblewick you could try a magic snaffle it's got a ported mouth piece but just rings like a snaffle, I rode my arab in one for years it was the only bit he would tolerate for a long time, I basically got him to accept a contact in it then once he was going well I tried a few different bits and he was fine.

Sometimes it's all about finding something they can get confidence from and working with it then other bits seem to be tolerated later on.

His really lovely ?

I used to ride my Criollo in one for years as he was western when I bought him.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You could consider one without the slots.

 

[Tihamandturkey]

I tend to think think that the unslotted one might be confusing for a sensitive horse as the reins can slide around giving an inconsistent feel ?

Would be for my hyper sensitive madam anyway - she likes the bit to be very still in her mouth ? she's not strong or hard mouthed in the slightest either just prefers as little movement as possible & the stability that this bit and her ported Pelham give.

She also hated the Cambridge (magic) snaffle too fwiw - port was too low & the loose ring didn't suit.

Owning a drama queen has been an education in stillness all round tbh ?