Dr riders bracing hard against the reins to elevate the front end?

[kerilli]

Just found this on sustainabledressage.com, fab stuff.
"As usual there are two categories of poor use of bitting, just as with everything else in riding. You can do wrong out of ignorance, or you can do wrong in a premeditated attempt to manipulate the horse into something it does not want to do. You can pull the horse in the mouth because you have poor balance - you balance yourself on the reins as if they were a rail. Some are totally unaware that they do and can thus do nothing about it. That's sad. Some are just unable to balance themselves properly and are painfully aware of it. This is at least the first step towards doing something about it. So it's not so sad.

The saddest is when the rider could balance himself independently of the reins, but choose not to because they need the counter-weight of their upper bodies to erect the horses neck to get that spectacular frontleg movement. To do something that one knows causes pain and a faulty balance plus broken gaits - in order to win points in competition or simply to get the "Ooohs!" and "Aaahs!" from onlookers. Now that's sad."

And of course modern dressage saddles with huge knee blocks look as if they facilitate this...
Thoughts?

 

[Sol]

Hmmm...
have to say, I HATE dressage saddles with those huge knee blocks (and yes, I hate the bates ones the most, despite loving bates saddles otherwise :/)
Sick of all the flashy incorrect movement too. Even at lower levels now! Watched a girl do a novice test last night with her horses nose on it's chest practically, looking all very showy but look carefully and it wasn't half as good - but I can bet she was marked well for it still.

I never learned to ride initially without reins/stirrups but wish I had, though I did/do do more of it now

Good stuff, really teaches you a lot about your own position! They -should- teach more riding like that! Once you've made your own mistakes a few times and payed the price, you soon learn

and maybe it would teach people that reins aren't supposed to be solid like a steering wheel...

However, do have to love the sustainabledressage site

 

[siennamum]

Maybe riders should be marked for correctness of their positions. I know a local trainer who drills horses for hour after hour with her hands held as if she's running, exerting real force on the mouth. In the face of lots of admiration, I look like I am being picky if I point out that she should have a straight line from her elbows to the bit..... It's cretainly fashinable tho & assisted not only by knee blocks but also crank nosebands I think.

 

[TGM]

Sadly it is quite common to see this type of riding, but I am pleased to say the last time I saw it happen the judge actually called the competitor over at the end of the test and had a word with her. If only all dressage judges were as brave ...

 

[camilla4]

I do think this type of riding occurs far too frequently and yes, I do also think that the heavily blocked saddles cause more problems than they solve, I think they prevent the subtlety of seat use that is really ideal and do make this "bracking" far more likely. It does also seem that there is less emphasis placed these days on devleoping a truly deep seat - far fewer riders I know spend time on the lunge or working without stirrups which is a pity!

 

[tigers_eye]

I spent about 3 hours on that site last night, did you see ther picture (might have been in the rollkur section) of a rider literally standing back pulling? Was on a chestnut, looked like waterskiing.

Very interesting picture on eurodressage's site too, if you read their fantastic reports on the Global Dressage Forum, think it was in a section with Totilas' name in the heading.

 

[Alibear]

I'm just confuse ok we're talking a double bridle here but can a rider really physically lift the horse off the fore hand?
Or are the horses still on the forehand but with their head high as the rider can effect the head position this way?
I love thigh blockes, but then I am overweight , out of shape and need all the help I can get to stay on board.

 

[icestationzebra]

I have seen this quite a lot at the lower levels of BD to be honest. Rider using their knee blocks to brace against and leaning backwards - probably because they have seen some professional riders riding in that way. The result is horses that are heavy in the hand and blocky in their paces. Horrible to watch but the scores they get never fails to amaze me

 

[carthorse]

I think we should be allowed to ride bare back [which would suit us as we can't afford a dressage saddle at the moment] but you are not allowed [did Home Inter trial without one though,lol]
Maybe it will get as bad as dog showing where the poor things hardly seem allowed to put their front legs on the ground!
Claire taught someone the other day who had been taught schooling hands [ sawing] and competition hands [still] by a dressage pro!

 

[kerilli]

carthorse, that really really shocks me. i'd love to know who the Pro was who advocated that. jeeez. and how the hell is that supposed to work in a test, if the horse is used to being sawed at to keep him/her in an outline?!
icz, that's the trouble though... whatever wins will keep getting done. it's a nightmare.

 

[dressagecrazy]

Ok, ive just been at the BD convention & i can say no pulling of the forehand going on for expression. I do think sustainable dressage does pick the worst of the worst & then makes out it done all the time.

What i did see was 2 lovely riders with there lower leg a bit to far forward, both where riding in the same saddle!! Im sure that the saddle was the cause of there position fault. Both saddle's where highly padded but to me the alighnment of the stirrup bars was the root cause.
But i didnt see any bracing against the reins to get expression.

However a dressage rider should be able to place themselves in the correct position regardless of what saddle there sat in, but as ive found correct placement of stirrup bars does make a big differance. It also makes it a lot easier to maintain the correct position when riding these big movers. Cause boy is that a challange in it's self to arthritic bodys like mine.

At the lower levels what i suspect your seeing is riders behind the movement not able to absorb. Which then creates a backward hand (which would look like they where trying to pull the horse up in front) & normally the rider leans back trying to stay in balance.

Also a lot of the lower levels don't seem to understand half halts, so again you would get bracing effect instead.

I ride myself in a WOW which has conventional flaps the padded area is there if you need it, but tbh it doesnt affect my riding at all. My horse is very sensitive to my seat & this is something ive developed more since having the WOW. I did ride for years in a saddle without any padding on the flaps & i felt no differance.
Im not sure yet if bulked up flaps do make it possible to brace a backward hand is possible in any saddle.

I reserve judgement.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Definitely wish you could compete bareback.

I ride 100 times better without a saddle and Fleur goes so much better without one! I actually try and ride in winter at least a couple of times a week bareback because it helps straighten me out. I am crooked due to mainly how I muck out as I can't change hands with the tools so it makes me very one sided due to a previous weakness.

Problem is though it is all health and safety isn't it. No matter how good a rider you are far more ilkely to fall off if a horse spooks if riding bareback than if you have a saddle, so the insurance companies say no without a seconds consideration.

The same applies to teaching, i taught at a PC camp a few years back and was shocked to hear the PC branch who had used the facilities the week before for their camp were no longer allowed to work with no stirrups as it was considered too dangerous. How children are expected to develop an independant deep seat is beyond me!! I think lunge lessons with no stirrups or reins should be essential or if being really evil no saddle either!!!

 

[kerilli]

when i was a kid there was a bareback jumping comp (round a whole course) at a lot of local shows, good fun and few tumbles actually.
at riding school we played bareback tag too, great for our seats prob not v nice for the ponies' mouths though...

 

[Halfstep]

[ QUOTE ]
What i did see was 2 lovely riders with there lower leg a bit to far forward, both where riding in the same saddle!! Im sure that the saddle was the cause of there position fault. Both saddle's where highly padded but to me the alighnment of the stirrup bars was the root cause.
But i didnt see any bracing against the reins to get expression.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree about this comment, both riders who had their legs too far forward were in the same saddle with a big thigh block. However, both riders are also built with shorter legs and this does make achieving the ideal position more tricky. Also worth saying is that despite the slight position flaw both riders are extremely effective and correct. No bracing at all.

 

[Pep12]

I have been told that if you are short in the leg these dressage saddles with sizeable blocks are the worst thing to ride in as they encourage you to pull your knee up to meet the block, which obviously is counter-productive for so many reasons. Anyone noticed this?

 

[camilla4]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been told that if you are short in the leg these dressage saddles with sizeable blocks are the worst thing to ride in as they encourage you to pull your knee up to meet the block, which obviously is counter-productive for so many reasons. Anyone noticed this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't noticed as such Pep, but it does make sense.

 

[daisycrazy]

I don't like big knee blocks on dressage saddles - I find it excruciatingly painful for starters. But I also don't see why they're necessary. Chris Bartle thinks knee blocks/rolls should be removed from all dressage saddles - which would make an interesting additional factor in the snaffle and slack cavesson ride off I proposed for dressage championships in an earlier thread!!