Dragging toes

[DD265]

My 24yo Welsh D drags his toes. He most frequently drags his left hind, he displays the most wear on his left fore, but he'll also drag his right hind and right fore. He doesn't always do it and the hinds drag more going down hill. He was x-rayed for arthritis back in 2007 and he had side bone/DJD of the coffin joints in the fronts and OCD in his hocks. That said he is is walking fit (we haven't done any faster work really, building up slowly) with an active hind leg albeit somewhat on the forehand, hacking out 2-3 times a week from 30mins to 1hr30 and we have steep hills and lots of them in West Yorkshire. He looks well, he's building muscle. He's barefoot but hacks out booted; these boots are 2 months old and he's almost worn splits in the toes. He's only been in significant work since February this year, it's a long story. He has regular Bowen and SCENAR, plus regular saddle fittings. Ultimately at this point we don't know why he's dragging his toes; it doesn't seem to be mechanical/arthritis related and I don't want to put him through a veterinary investigation again when we don't know where to start.

My views of things to investigate are:
1) girth - this hasn't been changed and maybe it pinches when he's striding out. I'll start with a sheepskin girth sleeve (girth is entirely elastic) which I already have before looking at alternatives.
2) hind gut - I don't know the full list of ulcer symptoms but I don't think he has those. That said, I know an uncomfortable hind gut can show in the movement so something like Slippery Elm might be a good choice.
3) sheath - make sure it's clean
4) pain relief - if all else fails, does he still do it on Bute?

Any other suggestions for things to check/rule in/rule out?

 

[wkiwi]

Not sure why you think that the dragging toes isn't related to mechanical/arthritis?
The sidebone/DJD and OCD will not go away (some of the tissues never heal and go back to 'normal') so he will always have problems and these will get worse in time too (although the time this takes will vary dramatically with the individual). You say that you have he drags toes most when going down hills, which sounds typical hock or hindend issue.
I don't want this to come across as being rude, but I'm not sure why you won't get the vet when you are prepared to get other regular checks/help for him (bowen/saddle), but you will need to do this to try the bute option anyway. Please do not use bute (from a friend or that you already have) without getting the pony checked first, as it can mask some conditions and if your pony does have ulcers then it can make these worse. If using any herbal treatments then please do research the side-effects too (and every drug whether natural or synthetic has some side effects) as they very rarely have these on the packaging.
Good luck with finding a solution to help your boy

 

[touchstone]

I would imagine it's a worsening of his arthritis, toe dragging and wear are pretty classic symptoms, and if he already had it nine years ago It is almost guaranteed to have progressed.

 

[DD265]

If it was related to the arthritis, my expectation would be that it was continuous? i.e. not on and off on the same ride. I appreciate that arthritis can have "good days and bad days" but it's the inconsistency that was making me think it was something else. I'll put that back into consideration.

As far as the vet goes; he did see a vet a couple of months ago for unsoundness and they suggested bute. He actually improved as the weather changed shortly thereafter so has only had bute if he's been footsore. I'll ask for him to be re-assessed on the next yard visit.

I don't mind call outs to the yard but I don't want to put him through a full workup at the clinic again. Been there done that 9 years ago and without going into detail, it didn't go well for us. My desire to know what's going on and make everything better is fighting against the worry that the vets will make things worse again, or that it will be something that we can't make better and that once I know I have to give up trying.

 

[wkiwi]

If it was related to the arthritis, my expectation would be that it was continuous? He actually improved as the weather changed shortly thereafter
..., or that it will be something that we can't make better and that once I know I have to give up trying.

The intermittent and improve with weather is quite typical of arthritis for many (do you have elderly relatives/friends with arthritis - I am sure that many will say they find the same).
Re the 'something that we can't make better' - sadly this is so true! It would be great if we could just replace parts like they do with cars (order online and insert new hocks the next day sounds wonderful!) or wave a magic wand. But wouldn't you rather know and treat or retire him than have him uncomfortable? It would be so lovely sometimes if they could just talk and tell us where they hurt, but I suppose some of them might learn to lie too (LOL).
Good luck with the outcome

 

[C1airey]

My horse recently had a second round of injections for his arthritic hocks. I knew he needed them because he started to drag a toe occasionally. Not every stride, just every so often. Sometimes he didn't do it at all, sometimes it would be more frequent. Definitely more pronounced going downhill.

Vet should be able to come to you and do a full work up, providing you have suitable space/surfaces. Some vets will medicate at your yard, others want you to come to them. Explain your concerns to your vet re: your earlier experience.

 

[Birker2020]

If it was related to the arthritis, my expectation would be that it was continuous? i.e. not on and off on the same ride..

Wrong assumption. My horse drags his hind toes sometimes but in his case it is often down to laziness and me not riding forwards enough. On a hack he will drag his hind toes in trot, but never up a hill - only on the flat. And this can vary, if he has been spooked by something, he will not drag his toes or if we are trotting towards a car that has stopped for us he will be paying attention to the car and forgets his toe dragging.

In the school he will often drag his back toes - again the vet believes this is due to habit, and laziness, but if he does trot pole work either ridden or on the lunge he doesn't. Sometimes I will ride him and O/H will comment to me that he is dragging his hind toes through the surface, so I will kick him on, and ride him more from behind to encourage him to use his back end and then he will stop dragging his hind toes, although he reverts back if I don't keep on top of him. So it is just laziness with him borne from an equally lazy rider I hasten to add!

My horse has spavin in both hocks which has been successfully treated with getting the hocks fused with ethanol. Xrays some 12 months later showed both hocks fused. He is not in pain with it as the ethanol has successfully killed the nerves in the hock but he does get stiff, once he has done a lap of the school or walked down to the field he is fine. He was stabled for 22 hours a day all through last winter and came out of the stable fine, but if you had of trotted him he would have dragged his toes. If you had of trotted him towards the pig pen - he would not have dragged his toes as he has a serious pig phobia! So you see it can be intermittent. OP -If your horse is cantering in the school and keeps swapping his hind legs this is a good indication of bone spavin.

If he does have spavin he most likely can be sorted with ethanol fusion. Its a really good solution for some horses and is around £300 for both hocks including the contrast dye xrays which are essential before the procedure can be carried out. The whole procedure takes about an hour and is done at your vets clinic.

My horse was on 1/2 sachet of bute for a good while until I switched him to liquid bute. He weighs in at around 668KG. I know of one horse who is a Shire and weighs considerably more and is on a maintenance dose of 1/4 sachet a day. Its not the end of the world if he is diagnosed with arthritis. I also have a very good physio whose suggested tying a loose light weight curb chain or similar around this hind fetlocks - this is good physio tool called proprioception, from Latin proprius, meaning "one's own", "individual," and to take or grasp, is the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement. In other words like we would feel something dangling from our ankle and would therefore be more aware of our movements, so this works in the same way for a horse and encourages a horse to move in a different way.

 

[DD265]

OP -If your horse is cantering in the school and keeps swapping his hind legs this is a good indication of bone spavin.

We can't actually canter - although when we jumped (1ft, just to see if he wanted a change) last week YO said he was cantering at a fence and I was like "are you sure because this just feels like all four legs are scrabbling". It does all sound very similar to my lad.

He did have his hocks and coffin joints medicated (with hyaluronic acid if I recall correctly) 9 years ago but I couldn't actually ride him 20ft down the driveway after everything so I guess we never really got to assess whether the medication helped. I made an assumption that it hadn't and never pursued a second course or alternative. He's booked in for the yard visit (was due his jabs anyway) and we'll see what the outcome of that is. I don't know whether I'd retire him again, but thankfully I don't have to make that decision until I know more or he categorically tells me no, which he hasn't done yet.

 

[Birker2020]

I don't know whether I'd retire him again, but thankfully I don't have to make that decision until I know more or he categorically tells me no, which he hasn't done yet.

If it is found that he has arthritis (spavin) which seems likely in view of his symptoms, retiring him is probably the worse thing you can do unless he has plenty of turnout, if he has arthritis he needs to be kept moving around as much as possible, if this means a reduced workload (although some horses don't need this) or light hacking. Most horses go onto make a full recovery and prognosis is good for a return to previous work. In most cases there is no need to retire a horse with spavin, there is loads that can be done these days, lots of different treatment options open to you.

The fusion process is explained below. Its not to be confused with surgical fusion which is entirely different treatment.

The hock joints are checked to ensure there is no gap between the lower hock joint to the large upper hock joints by way of a contrast dye which is injected into the hock. The xrays are instantly checked - this is of paramount importance. If there is communication between the joints then the procedure cannot go ahead. Once the xrays show the horse can have the procedure a small amount of highly concentrated alcohol is injected into lower hock joint. This injection results in fusion of the joint within 12-18 months. The pain relief is near immediate and horses can return to work within 48 hours of the injection. They can also go out to graze the day following the procedure as no steroid has been used. As I say its a good remedy for certain horses.

The proof is in the pudding or so they say. The next day I picked out my horses back foot and he nearly took my eye out - he raised his foot much higher than he had done in years! He went back to low level jumping/dressage without a problem and would still be competing now some three or four years later if it were not for the fact he is recovering from an unrelated injury!

 

[DD265]

That's really helpful, thank you Applecart.

 

[Birker2020]

No problem I hope it works out for you as a treatment option if necessary.

 

[splashgirl45]

my mare drags her hind some of the time and hers is due to tendon sheath injury, as she is 25 she probably has arthritis as well but it is the tendon sheath which is the main cause. mine is now not being ridden and I don't know if she will ever be right enough but she is field sound so is an expensive ornament...

 

[DD265]

UPDATE

We have a "therapist" as I call her and good friend who does Bowen and SCENAR amongst other things, she's been treating us (D moreso, me on and off) for several years now.

She'd suggested veterinary thermography (which I asked about on here, mixed opinions as with many things) but then said before spending a fortune on that or veterinary workups lets try some intensive SCENAR again because it has worked miracles before. I was on holiday last week so he wasn't ridden, he got treatments Monday and Thursday. She focused on the muscles which lift the legs up and forwards as well as an area in his back (based on SCENAR readings and where she sees/feels the tension in his body) rather than the joints as although we both agree there's a joint issue, the muscles need support too.

Last night I thought D was a lot freer in front with a very active walk although still dragging his left hind constantly. YO informed me that he had seen D cantering around the fields several times which is unheard of.

D is going to stay off work for the time being and we will continue with intensive SCENAR. The vet is still coming next week and we can discuss bute, potential investigation etc. I have been feeling very detached (normally I miss D before the plane has even taken off) and concluded that I have "shut down" to protect myself because I felt like PTS was a given, but I'm heading back in the right direction now.