Draw reins and side reins - aren't they creating a false outline?

welshponylover

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Well at my yard some people use draw-reins to encourage a horse to focus at the beginning of riding and then take it off after warm up - these horses are older, well schooled ones and from my understanding that is ok.

However a person i know who is bringing on a youngster uses them to put the horse into an outline - i thought that an outline wasn't just tucking the head in?

With Brommy i make sure he is nice and active, bending to my legs and now and again twiddle the reins and he is well schooled enough to repsond.

Its not just draw reins but all the other bits and pieces that do that!!

So isn't this forcing the youngster to just put it's head down?

I'm a bit confused please reply! And sorry if this is a bit of a ramble!!
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In the wrong hands yes, used correctly no.

No black and whites with these things really - if you use any gadget to pull a horse's head in without schooling properly then that will create a totally false way of working - but if you use them to correct a particular problem, or to help focus attention for a short amount of time, then so long as you are not relying on them to get the horse working in an outline, they can be a very useful piece of kit.
 
Certainly the second picture you posted looks horrid. Head way behind vertical, horse unhappy, very limited benefit. As previous poster said some gadgets can encourage horse to hold itself correctly but others, in other hands just constrain various parts unnaturally.
 
Second picture is awful! But I do like vienna (sp) reins, if I was to use side reins thats what I would go for.
Personally I can see where and why gadgets have a place but nothing beats correct schooling especially on a youngster.

No draw reins (when used incorrectly which is often) forces the horse into a flase outline. When used correctly they do encourage the horse to work better.
 
You are correct: draw reins, side reins, the rest of the gadgets only place the horse's head (mouth) in a position which is considered to be "on the bit". A horse who is truly working properly should be driving through from behind, and the contact from the hands/training aid is merely there to stop all that forwards motion from going out of the front door, and to help avoid him from slopping along very long.

A horse can and will still go incorrectly with these gadgets on. I would say there are far more people out there who think they can use these things properly, than who can actually do it properly. I think it is possible to use them for good effect, but I think you have to be extremely skilled, and my arguement would be if you are that skilled you should be able to do it without the gadgets anyway ;)
 
Oh a can of worms which is inevitably going to cause a riot! I'm not sure if I should comment... but what the hell eh?

I think many people on here are aware of my views on draw reins. Cannot stand them, I'm sure people will say ''If used correctly...'' however if you're riding and training your horse correctly you shouldn't need them.
I think what we have to look at first is the dynamics of ''working in an outline''; ''on the vertical/bit'' I think it's quite a silly term now, because I think it's lost it's meaning. To many people, it's the head being in a set place, because it means he's working properly. But it's so much more complicated than that, yet it's such a simple thing too.
-Horses are all designed differently, like people, some have large necks, some have thin necks, some have ewe necks, some have long necks, some have short and stocky necks. This means that they will all hold their head differently, Iberian's tend to have short and stocky necks, so they tend to be behind the vertical a lot more, because this is where the head is most comfortable, whereas a horse with a longer neck may prefer to have his poll at the highest point the majority of the time.
Working from behind is another crucial thing; so many people think that they're horses are ''reluctant'' to work on the bit. My old pony, had a few instructors give me lessons, he wouldn't ''work in an outline'' and so they'd get on and pull and kick and he wouldn't do it. ''He's reluctant to do it'' they'd say, when the truth is that really, his was sticking his nose up in the air because he didn't like the way they were riding, they were unbalanced, heavy handed and he couldn't balance himself. My pony can't talk to me, so he has to express that in a different way.

Working in an outline means that everything is working properly, this means that the horse is balanced, supple, light in the jaw and happy to work. But when a horse doesn't do this, it's presumably always ''the horses fault'', because the said instructor said so or the rider can do no wrong or in this case is not at fault- but I think that is 99.9999999% of the time inaccurate. When I finally found my EE instructor, we worked in a way where I could balance myself, be light in the hands, all I'd then need to do, was to gently ask with my leg for him to lift him back- et voila, he placed his head where it was comfortable, for him it was at his poll. This was where he was lightest, he didn't lean on the bit and I was balanced as was he.

Draw reins show a horse where his head is ''supposed'' to be, but I believe draw reins come in a ''one size fits all'', which is a bit silly. The horses head is placed in a certain place, but is he REALLY working properly? Does he understand how to use his body correctly, because it's been moulded for him. How do you learn best? I think most of us learn best by having it explained to us and then beginning to work it out, with help and guidance, but not total moulding and giving us the answer. If we place our horses head in this place, he doesn't know that he's meant to lift his back in order to do so, and most of the time it looks pretty uncomfortable. If a horse is unhappy, in discomfort and has been moulded into a shape which may not agree with his conformation or his musculature, he tends to be tense and unhappy, as a consequence your horse isn't light in the hand, nor is his back working properly.

I recommend reading Philippe Karl's ''Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage'' he has some great illustrations showing how the muscles work when an outline has been gradually developed through correct riding and balance, in comparison to draw reins. Makes a brilliant read.
 
^^^ This! Well said.

Just a thought have a look at the 'german scales of training'. I found that a horse is never working correctly unless it does all of them.
 
^^^ This! Well said.

Just a thought have a look at the 'german scales of training'. I found that a horse is never working correctly unless it does all of them.

Definitely, the German scales are really useful, just for those who aren't familiar though;


Rhythm
Looseness
Contact
Impulsion
Straightness
Collection

However, there is quite a lot of dispute over the order of this. I'm more of a French school follower, I personally prefer the way classical French teaching has depicted it, which is used in Spain and Portugal today in a classical art form. The German's are slightly different, because they are more competition orientated and so they have shorter time frames, whereas the Iberians tend to ride their horses for pleasure and again, as an Art form, they don't start advance training until late on a horses training, but then to a Spaniard, they could train a piaffe one handed, with their eyes closed drinking a cup of tea, it's just in their blood.

The German's are very keen on forwardness first- getting the horse to go forward, however the alternative argument is that a horse should be straight and balanced first. I'm with the latter, in order for my horse to go forward, he needs to be well balanced, but it's a bit of a chicken and an egg situation; ''does straightness come through forwardness or forwardness come through straightness?''
 
Totally agree with Lassiesuca. What a brilliant post and excellent way of explaining things. My ex-racer who started roadwork a couple of weeks back is beautiful and has wonderful paces. People on the yard keep asking when I am going to compete her in dressage. I tell them not this year - maybe next year - she might do a walk/trot test sometime in winter. They look at me and ask why so far away, why not sooner? When I tell them that I won't rush her into a false outline and that I want her to carry herself, enjoy herself and be a happy horse, they look at me as if I'm mad.......these are the people who seem to constantly ride/lunge their horses in draw reins/pessoas/bungees etc etc.....
 
totally agree with above have been riding a horse that puts his head very neatly where it 'should' be but trails his back legs and doesn't move with very much energy at all. was reading a magazine the other day and i was very confused about the fact nearly every single picture of a horse supposed going well was massively behind the vertical and on the forehand in IMHO.
 
Thank you lassiesuca, that was really interesting. I guess, regardless of whether you follow French, German or Spanish, the theory is the same is it not? That ones horse needs to have the time spent on it to be able to work correctly.

The first year I had K, I did virtually no schooling. I had no idea how to get a horse 'on the bit' but I would rather not be able to than force it. Fortunately for K I got introduced to my instructor who firmly believes in taking a horse back to the beginning and teaching him to work correctly. It has taken me 18 months but I now have a horse working correctly from behind with pretty good self carriage.

Having hacked in draw reins (on vets advice!) the difference is amazing, especially as I now understand the difference. To feel your horse being uphill and swinging along in a lovely controlled canter is amazing and I just don't think you can get that from gadgets.
 
Most definitely Mariannep, the fundamental principles are pretty much the same, there are variations in the training styles, although they all base it on an ethical, gentle approach, with an empathetic mind. It's something I've aspired to be, my horse is the sort that if I put too much pressure on him, he flips and he isn't at all horrible or nasty, he just panics. So using clicker methods combined with this approach, it's worked wonders.

But classical dressage is another thread in itself, there are so many different meanings and interpretations of it, and it's 2000 year history has lots of variations, Antonie de Pluvinel was considered one of our greatest horsemen alongside Francois de la Guerinerie (spelling is a bit dire!), they were around in the 17th and 18th Centuries and from their work, we can see that their findings were that a less aggressive and less dominant approach worked so much better, by being respectful and understanding the horse, through their training regime, made it so much better. I think the biggest part of it is accepting responsibility, when my horse is playing in the field, he moves so beautifully, he carries himself amazingly, he collects and he piaffes and passages (although 5 next month and never been taught it), the idea is that we take behaviours natural to them and just apply it to their riding, I think in a lot of competition riding, there is this idea that piaffe and passage are really advanced movements which one has to be extremely accomplished for and only on a 17hh Warmblood competing as GP level, it's not the case. People I know in Portugal, have 5 year olds who ride their Lusitano stallions in the piaffe, passage as well as tempi-changes and advanced lateral work. It's an amazing culture and one that I'm fascinated by!


I think this is what we have to remember, these movements are us trying to be at one with our horses, for pleasure and enjoyment, part of that is accepting that we flaw our horses, through our lack of coordination, timing and ability to see our faults, it's an important skill to have. I'm not the best rider, in fact I struggle a lot with my riding, although I am getting better, having a youngster who has to balance himself, I have to balance myself too, and not being able to afford an instructor or mentor to help, it has been a journey. He carries himself poll high, like he does in the field, so I don't want to ruin that ''If it ain't broke, don't fix it''

I'm glad your horse is a lot better now, it feels great doesn't it :)
 
a horse needs time to warm up and stretch so putting on draw until they are warmed up is for me ridiculous.
side reins do not give and allow like a rider hand should, i would never ever use them under any circumstances.
the correct position of the horses head which we see as the outline is only correct when the head is very slightly in front of the verticle, this is when the impulsion is leaving the tip of the horses nose and it is this that tells us the whole of the horse is in motion, the head position should be the result of all parts of the horses body being used correctly and equally, and most importantly is only possible when the horse is truly straight, pushing equally with both hind legs, using the back correctly liberates the shoulders
in some ways the various schools of thought originated because the different breeds of horses have differing natural capabilities, the old warmbloods were heavier and required a more driving seat to motivate them, the iberians are more naturally able to collect, the requirements of modern competition dressage demand a lot of forwardness and too many complicated movements one after the other.
 
You are correct: draw reins, side reins, the rest of the gadgets only place the horse's head (mouth) in a position which is considered to be "on the bit". A horse who is truly working properly should be driving through from behind, and the contact from the hands/training aid is merely there to stop all that forwards motion from going out of the front door, and to help avoid him from slopping along very long.

A horse can and will still go incorrectly with these gadgets on. I would say there are far more people out there who think they can use these things properly, than who can actually do it properly. I think it is possible to use them for good effect, but I think you have to be extremely skilled, and my arguement would be if you are that skilled you should be able to do it without the gadgets anyway ;)

Agreed, lots of incidents where people are trying to get an outline without putting the work in.
 
Some great posts from lassiesuca, I agree with almost all of it. I also like the scales of training.

I read an interesting article once about straightness of the dressage horse, stating that true straightness is only really achieved once the horse has reached the higher levels and it is what we should be aiming for in our training.
Like us, all horses will favour one rein to the other, as we are right or left handed. The point of dressage is to be able to get the horse balanced and strong enough not to favour one or the other but to be equally strong and balanced any which way.
The scales of training, to me, are a gradual thing and something that is worked on over years, not in one schooling session. I think that a lot of it is down to interpretation when training a horse and people obviously have their own methods, some which work and some which don't!

As for the gadgets, I think that they do have their place in some horses training. I don't think that they should ever be used to force a horse into anything, but can sometimes be useful as a guide.

I ride my mare in draw reins. I have never used them to get her into an outline, more there as a back up to get her to listen to me. I have been classically trained and was very anti draw reins and it took my instructor quite a few months to persuade me to try them out on her.
She is a big horse, with huge paces and very very forward going. She would bowl on, out of balance as she struggled with the size of her paces as she was too young and weak to properly hold herself up.
I would manage to slow her down a bit, but it wasn't true, she would often forget about her back end and keep trying to think of ways to bowl on again. She became fixated on the contact, trying to lean, contantly mouthing, tense in the neck etc, not working at all correctly or over her back but essentially her head was in the right place!

I now have a horse who waits and listens to me, is soft and even in the contact, is getting stronger and more able to cope with her size and paces. I can put her long and low, push her nose out, make her neck longer, get true bend through her whole body, bring her up to the correct outline for her level of training, she works correctly over her back and I never take a contact on the draw reins ever.
When I first put them on her she felt almost relieved, it's hard to describe it. Never have I wrenched her into a shape or forced her in anyway.
She is a big, intelligent horse and I feel like the draw reins helped guide her to a better way of going.
 
I use draw reins on my mare more to help me then here because when doing lateral work she will stick her head up and bugger off! They are not tight and infact do not come into play (we have mirrors in our arena) but she knows they are there and it helps us both. So I suppose I do just use them to encourage her.
I only use them once a month or so, as a bit of a reminder.
I think with any gadget they have their place with a good sympathetic rider.
I do not agree with using them to force the horse into a false outline. I know a dressage rider who would not ride without them on one paticular horse.. this was someone who competed to Advanced medium and above!!!
 
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