Dressage before jumpinig?

[IrishRegulus]

Greetings one and all,

@admin - apols if this is in the wrong section

I'm a novice rider and, recently, took up riding as something to keep me fit and active - best decision I've made this year for sure - absolutely love it...can't believe how much skill is needed

After a bumpy start , my RI says I have a decent rising trot and an ok seated trot. Im overjoyed, even though I suspect she's just being supportive...there's loads more I feel I can improve...but it continues to keep my interest high

Question is: Do you think new riders should *first* learn a bit of dressage before even considering jumping? Does dressage set up a rider with a good foundation for general horsemanship/control or is it a complete different skill-set altogether?

I know I'm a long way off either, just interested to hear what riders think about this one and/or their own experiences.

Cheers!

 

[vickyb]

Glad you are enjoying your riding. In order to do dressage you will need a totally independant seat to start with, and the only way to get this is to become competent at all paces on your horse, and to me, that would also include jumping. Just have fun with learning at the moment. Dressage doesn't 'set up a good foundation'. The foundation will already have to be in place.

 

[olivia x]

I have done bits and pieces of dressage during my riding life-- and would be the first to admit I do not know the most about it. I was always under the impression that no matter what other riding style you did, basic dressage was essential for both horse and rider, as it is about suppeling, collection, extending, shortening, bend, transition, precision, effective use of aids, etc, which are key foundational things for any other kind of riding. In my past riding life, I competed doing adult amateur show jumping on courses up to about 3'6" and some hunter and equitation (this was in the US, not sure if all of these showing categories translate across)-- point being, was not focused on dressage as an end in itself. But riding lessons and clinics always had bits of dressage in them, and flatwork practice would incorporate moves like leg yield, shoulder in, haunches in, turn on forehand, turn on haunch, counter-canter.

For jumping, this gave important skills like being able to adjust your horse's stride, have them riding off your leg and seat, balance, flexibility, etc. I was told by trainers and instructors that if it was not possible to do at least those dressage skills on the flat, it would be hard to ride a horse effectively and accurately around a course of fences.

After about a five year break in riding, I started again with lessons this past autumn ( and just got my own horse a week ago). The lessons concentrated on lots of those same dressage elements, and I have been enjoying them in their own right-- and with some very high quality instruction, have a new appreciation for what all of it is trying to accomplish. The yard where I ride/keep the horse has some unaffiliated low level dressage shows-- I rode in one last autumn, and am certainly planning to have a go at them when they start up again. It was great fun. At this point, though not jumping currently, I am more interested in working towards that than exclusively focusing on dressage-- but plan to keep doing a weekly lesson that focuses for the time being on lots of flat work which will include doing some dressage movements-- and by summer hope to be doing some jump work-- but still incorporating the dressage.

Not sure if that really answers your question-- but that has been my experience. I think knowing and doing some dressage makes horse and rider better for whatever their aims/goals/pursuits are!

How long have you been doing lessons, and what sort of dressage does your instructor have you doing?

I suppose a note of caution as an afterthought- not saying this is true of your instructor-- but I have seen where new/beginning riders are started over poles and fences because the instructor is afraid the rider will be bored and will lose their business-- not that the rider is ready to actually be jumping. I remember in my past riding life seeing a woman who had started jumping about 2 months after starting to ride. She would get left behind on even the smallest jump, sock the horse in the mouth, crash land on its back...she rode an absolute saint of a school horse who packed her around fences and ignored her mistakes. She was convinced she was the hottest rider since-- whatever-- had she not been on a packer, it would have been a disaster, and some time later when over horsed and jumping around, she had a nasty fall. Learning riding skills takes time, there are no true short cuts-- hence why I am not even thinking of jumping until the summer-- I need to get back a lot of the skills and muscle strength I once had, but no longer do since I stopped for so long!

 

[IrishRegulus]

Glad you are enjoying your riding. In order to do dressage you will need a totally independant seat to start with, and the only way to get this is to become competent at all paces on your horse, and to me, that would also include jumping. Just have fun with learning at the moment. Dressage doesn't 'set up a good foundation'. The foundation will already have to be in place.

Noted, vickyb, and thanks for the advice - I was just musing it over whilst watching a few "not so great" young'uns jumping down at the arena t'other day...I'm no expert but I 've watched my fair share of prof/just good jumpers on youtube and I thought their form wasn't the best..but, hey, they were jumping and I wasn't, so who am I to say? all this, whilst I was slogging it around and around doing the rising trot and more rising trot...as I'm new, I thought do this til I could do it for hours without breaking a sweat.

Thanks though. I'm in my mid 30s and maybe that's why I'm more into the slow enjoyable and safe learnign process...yes, jumping looks like great fun and all the more fun I'll have doing it, when I'm ready..and not a moment before...One horse power doesn't seem like much in the motor

 

[nix123]

Glad you are enjoying your riding. In order to do dressage you will need a totally independant seat to start with, and the only way to get this is to become competent at all paces on your horse, and to me, that would also include jumping. Just have fun with learning at the moment. Dressage doesn't 'set up a good foundation'. The foundation will already have to be in place.

I agree with this. The reason why you probably think that peoples "form" of jumping varies is because there is no real finesse with sj. (am waiting to be shot down now) its all about getting over the jumps and keeping them up, in the fastest (and safest obv.) time possible. Dressage is judged on the horse and the rider both together and individually. Eg you can be marked down in dr for not sitting tall where as in sj you could go round hunched and it wouldn't make a difference to your score. It is said that horses will need their flat work in place to be able to jump correctly. Eg shortening/lengthing their strides, balance etc. I think as long as your enjoying yourself and feel able you should ask your instructor what he/she thinks to you doing a little more, let it be flatwork or a little pole.

 

[Jnhuk]

I think you will find that your instructor will naturally progress you to polework then small jumps when you are ready. Just enjoy your riding and don't worry or over think it. The more you know, the more you realise that you don't know. You never stop learning with horses!

 

[IrishRegulus]

I have done bits and pieces of dressage during my riding life-- and would be the first to admit I do not know the most about it. I was always under the impression that no matter what other riding style you did, basic dressage was essential for both horse and rider, as it is about suppeling, collection, extending, shortening, bend, transition, precision, effective use of aids, etc, which are key foundational things for any other kind of riding. In my past riding life, I competed doing adult amateur show jumping on courses up to about 3'6" and some hunter and equitation (this was in the US, not sure if all of these showing categories translate across)-- point being, was not focused on dressage as an end in itself. But riding lessons and clinics always had bits of dressage in them, and flatwork practice would incorporate moves like leg yield, shoulder in, haunches in, turn on forehand, turn on haunch, counter-canter.

For jumping, this gave important skills like being able to adjust your horse's stride, have them riding off your leg and seat, balance, flexibility, etc. I was told by trainers and instructors that if it was not possible to do at least those dressage skills on the flat, it would be hard to ride a horse effectively and accurately around a course of fences.

After about a five year break in riding, I started again with lessons this past autumn ( and just got my own horse a week ago). The lessons concentrated on lots of those same dressage elements, and I have been enjoying them in their own right-- and with some very high quality instruction, have a new appreciation for what all of it is trying to accomplish. The yard where I ride/keep the horse has some unaffiliated low level dressage shows-- I rode in one last autumn, and am certainly planning to have a go at them when they start up again. It was great fun. At this point, though not jumping currently, I am more interested in working towards that than exclusively focusing on dressage-- but plan to keep doing a weekly lesson that focuses for the time being on lots of flat work which will include doing some dressage movements-- and by summer hope to be doing some jump work-- but still incorporating the dressage.

Not sure if that really answers your question-- but that has been my experience. I think knowing and doing some dressage makes horse and rider better for whatever their aims/goals/pursuits are!

How long have you been doing lessons, and what sort of dressage does your instructor have you doing?

I suppose a note of caution as an afterthought- not saying this is true of your instructor-- but I have seen where new/beginning riders are started over poles and fences because the instructor is afraid the rider will be bored and will lose their business-- not that the rider is ready to actually be jumping. I remember in my past riding life seeing a woman who had started jumping about 2 months after starting to ride. She would get left behind on even the smallest jump, sock the horse in the mouth, crash land on its back...she rode an absolute saint of a school horse who packed her around fences and ignored her mistakes. She was convinced she was the hottest rider since-- whatever-- had she not been on a packer, it would have been a disaster, and some time later when over horsed and jumping around, she had a nasty fall. Learning riding skills takes time, there are no true short cuts-- hence why I am not even thinking of jumping until the summer-- I need to get back a lot of the skills and muscle strength I once had, but no longer do since I stopped for so long!

Hey there - thanks for writing so much...I feel that I ought to at least try to equal it in length

Ok, firstly, my RI has never even vaguely suggested anything about jumping that's just me thinking about it, comparing skills to dressage, wondering what skills translate between the two, etc. Tbh, if my RI knew I was talking about this, she'd probably have me on lunges for a week with the crop wedged in between my shoulder blades, "to keep my posture"...bit of a couch sloucher, me...haha...

I like to get things right before moving on - so believe me, I'm overjoyed that I've got the rising trot and a decent seat ( keeping my heels down works wonders for this - no more leg clamping and bumping all over the place ) so I could happily work on my seat and let the youngsters jump to their little hearts' desire. From early motorbiking days, I'm only too familiar with how unyeilding the earth can be...and my riding gear does not necessarily protect in the same fashion as kelvar body armour, full face crash helmet etc..for me, horse jumping's like doing handbrake turns etc in a car - you don't/can't execute this manoeuvres properly UNLESS you have a full working knowledge of the machine's mechanics/animal's handling.

I started riding lessons four weeks ago...have had about 6 one2ones so far - it's been difficult (first two lessons resutled in John Wayne the following day), but that's what i like - there's always something to think about...my RI sometimes records me - I htink this is brilliant cos I can see myself from an outside perspective and immediately can see my mistakes...I'm not an anal perfectionist - that being said, i do not like to leave things until I feel good about them - you know, the old addage: do it, do it right...I don't see jumping as the pinnacle of riding skill - It's simply one part of a many faceted sport/discipline and, no doubt, there is a very wide range of skill in those who compete.

now, I'm trying to perfect squeezing him on with each downward on the rising trot...as he has a tendency to sometimes just stop when I'm rising...kinda throws me off a little...so my RI's on at me to keep him going...he's a big gentleman, shire X...maybe he's lazy..doubt it - maybe it's more like me giving him a million and one mixed signals at once )...I tried using a crop on his shoulder but then he jumped into a canter on the corner and, boy, did i think I was gonna hit the dirt! haha...got him stopped again...RI was laughing her socks off but said I'd done really well in controlling him back down to walk...just the look on my face when he upted it a gear...said it was priceless...well, glad she's having such fun on my money DD.

Lessons learned from that are that I'm quite happy with trotting speed and finding a great seat for now...when cantering...it's like the start of the seated trot all over again...bouncy bouncy mcbounce...feel like dancing on a turntable and then someone doubles the spinning speed...all too easy to get lost behind.

BTw, I hear ya re. that girl that started jumping two months after starting...jumping isn't cool for me, at all...maybe cos I'm a little older - a fall for me would translate into possible time off work (yicks!! no money) time off riding (might have to start all over again) or a disabling spinal injury (sorry for bringing that up). I thought dressage would be a little safer...I'm not against risk taking per se - such as, for example, walking across a crowded floor to speak to a lady, who's standing with a group of her mates...but I am against life-******ing physical injuries; thus, anything to mitigate such possibilities is good, in my book.

Still, I sometimes feel a bit, well...maybe it's just a boy thing...but when all those spritely young bucks are jumping and then there's me with my big gentle shireX bumbling about...but I think he has a beautiful trot...well, I think it's beautiful so maybe I'm just he's biggest fan )...it's like the cool BMX kids and then me, with my little stabilisers, going round and round the circuit..hahahah...still, from the smallest seed does the mightly oak grow...so that was my question rationale...I want to develop good solid sturdy habits...dont want to have to go back to the starting block in a year cos I've unlearned good habits and developed nasty bad ones...god knows, if left to my own devices now, what I would have forgotten in a few weeks and replaced with who knows what.

Dressage seemed to be safer and all about precision control - something I naturally thought would be invaluable to a jumper...as it stands at the moment, jumping is something which still kinda terrifies me...not in a bad way...more like the way the last chapter of a classroom text book was usually incomprehensible to the September pupils, but old hat by June...seeing the jumping has reinforced, for me, how importnat is it to get the basics...That one girl I saw...jez, she was no olympic candidate. I applaud her courage but, after seeing her landing...I did wonder whether courage was the wrong word...but, then, I remember my little stabilisers and my inner voice says: never mind them - up, down, up down..hhahaaha...plus, I can't imagine the horse would like being jumped by someone who wasn't ready. My guy's a forgiving, not forgetting sort...patience of a saint...tests me a lot..if I miss a squeeze on the down of the rising trot..he just stops...I think he's thinking: look buddy, I assume you wanna keep going...but you gotta squeeze to lemme know %100 - that's how I roll, dude...this horse don't second guess the rider..hahaha...

You too right about the muscle...Only after about a month, do I feel strong AND supple and I'm still doing streches at home etc...I'm still a bit tense around the lower back/lumbar...totally different muscles than I've been using, just for walking. All being well witht he lessons, I think I'd like to lease a horse for a while - after I 'pass' my basics...like right now, I'd love to head to the barn and practice rising trots for a few hours...without having to fork out for the lesson fee..note to self - discuss with RI - then I could really get some practice in - I made a vow NOT to buy until at least a year (I figured after a year I'd know where I stood with riding/was it for me etc) it's also MY carrot...a reward for one year's hard work.

 

[IrishRegulus]

I agree with this. The reason why you probably think that peoples "form" of jumping varies is because there is no real finesse with sj. (am waiting to be shot down now) its all about getting over the jumps and keeping them up, in the fastest (and safest obv.) time possible. Dressage is judged on the horse and the rider both together and individually. Eg you can be marked down in dr for not sitting tall where as in sj you could go round hunched and it wouldn't make a difference to your score. It is said that horses will need their flat work in place to be able to jump correctly. Eg shortening/lengthing their strides, balance etc. I think as long as your enjoying yourself and feel able you should ask your instructor what he/she thinks to you doing a little more, let it be flatwork or a little pole.

Hey, thanks for replying - just trying to make sure i say so to all who replied. It's all good! wish I'd started this 20 years ago tho!! Will defo ask RI and se what she thinks! happy riding!

 

[IrishRegulus]

@Jnhuk

Indeed. the wise man knows that he knows diddley. The question was more academic than anything - am loving all the responses...thanks to one and all for supporting this newbie rider. For now, it's enough for me to remember to keep those 'eels down! and, tbh, I just love trotting around the outside of the arena - could do it all day (sigh) oh, to find a rich horsey laydee, complete with her own financially self-sustaining estate and arena out the back...yip, could defo do that all day . thanks again! appreciate it!

 

[olivia x]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYfgVBnSzPI
This is a brilliant old clip of show jumping in 1959 at the National Horse Show in Madison Square Garden, NY. Its narrated by George Morris who is an icon of hunters and jumpers in the US. This clip shows alllll the different ways people were getting over fences-- some with a nice solid leg-- and then, at about 8.49 on the clip, it gets to what George Morris calls the "national riders". He comments that their "style" was in part a fad of the times. Their leg goes flying back so far it comes off and above the horse's haunches!!!! This was considered good riding. yikes!!! to give them credit they were staying on and getting around these courses.. but..

Dressage seems to be more classic and with tried and true elements.

I do not know about in the UK, but in the US there is a huge and long running controversy over the crest release and the exaggerated positions that riders take over fences in hunter and equitation classes-- roached back, laying on the horse's neck, etc. George Morris is sometimes "blamed" for encouraging, if not inventing, this style of riding.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Question is: Do you think new riders should *first* learn a bit of dressage before even considering jumping? Does dressage set up a rider with a good foundation for general horsemanship/control or is it a complete different skill-set altogether?

Dressage (apart from top levels) is nothing special, just flatwork. Jumping is 99% flatwork. Horse is only in the air for a very short part of the time it takes to get round a course so the rest is flatwork.

Riders role when jumping is to get the horse to the fence at the correct point for takoff with the right amount of impulsion (power) to jump the fence. Again all flatwork (dressage). Far too many people seem to miss this vital point which is why you see such dreadful riding at lower levels of jumping.

 

[hnmisty]

I think rather than learning "dressage" before you start jumping, you just have to be competent at flatwork and can control the horse at different speeds. This could be what you meant, and I misinterpreted your use of "dressage" Your instructor might start introducing pole work soon anyway, and you'd probably have a few lessons over poles working on your jumping seat before actually starting jumping, so don't expect to turn up next week and your instructor whack a jump up

 

[IrishRegulus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYfgVBnSzPI
This is a brilliant old clip of show jumping in 1959 at the National Horse Show in Madison Square Garden, NY. Its narrated by George Morris who is an icon of hunters and jumpers in the US. This clip shows alllll the different ways people were getting over fences-- some with a nice solid leg-- and then, at about 8.49 on the clip, it gets to what George Morris calls the "national riders". He comments that their "style" was in part a fad of the times. Their leg goes flying back so far it comes off and above the horse's haunches!!!! This was considered good riding. yikes!!! to give them credit they were staying on and getting around these courses.. but..

Dressage seems to be more classic and with tried and true elements.

I do not know about in the UK, but in the US there is a huge and long running controversy over the crest release and the exaggerated positions that riders take over fences in hunter and equitation classes-- roached back, laying on the horse's neck, etc. George Morris is sometimes "blamed" for encouraging, if not inventing, this style of riding.

Hey Thanks for the clip! Just watching it now - the rain has stopped for the first time this week - not a cloud in sight and I'm looking forward to getting down to the barn - OMG, horseback AND sunshine = WOW..haha

My Gawd! I've just seen the National Riders...they should be called National Heros..haha...are they fastened to the pommel at the crotch?? I've never ever seen that...although if someone records my first jump, it may well look like that combined with a sideways rolling off the saddle..haha Gonna show that to my RI today. Thanks for that! Have you ever tried the national style??

I honestly couldn't say about UK/US differences - haven't been at it long enough -still bringing all the new skills together - I liked what he was saying about the Mexicans being invincible in the 50s, and with a General on the team too! No pressure boys and girls, but if anyone messes up, they're on latrine duty for the year

Someone at the barn invited me to a jumping competition next week so I'm going along to have a watch and see how the big boys and girls ( well, mainly girls ) do. Are there more male riders in the states? - so far, the only boys I've met are the farmer who deliveries hay and the farriers

 

[oldie48]

Yes to all of this! SJ is just flatwork with jumps. When learning to ride I think it's quite difficult to understand what flatwork is really about, riding isn't really about rising or sitting to the trot or being able to canter without bouncing all over the place, it's about being to influence the horse's way of going so it's carrying the rider properly, is soft and supple, has gears within the paces, is on the aids etc etc It's a lifetime of learning for most mortals. Why not just enjoy the process you are on a very long but exciting journey!

"Jumping is 99% flatwork. Horse is only in the air for a very short part of the time it takes to get round a course so the rest is flatwork.
Riders role when jumping is to get the horse to the fence at the correct point for takoff with the right amount of impulsion (power) to jump the fence. Again all flatwork (dressage). Far too many people seem to miss this vital point which is why you see such dreadful riding at lower levels of jumping.[/QUOTE]

 

[olivia x]

Hey Thanks for the clip! Just watching it now - the rain has stopped for the first time this week - not a cloud in sight and I'm looking forward to getting down to the barn - OMG, horseback AND sunshine = WOW..haha

My Gawd! I've just seen the National Riders...they should be called National Heros..haha...are they fastened to the pommel at the crotch?? I've never ever seen that...although if someone records my first jump, it may well look like that combined with a sideways rolling off the saddle..haha Gonna show that to my RI today. Thanks for that! Have you ever tried the national style??

I honestly couldn't say about UK/US differences - haven't been at it long enough -still bringing all the new skills together - I liked what he was saying about the Mexicans being invincible in the 50s, and with a General on the team too! No pressure boys and girls, but if anyone messes up, they're on latrine duty for the year

Someone at the barn invited me to a jumping competition next week so I'm going along to have a watch and see how the big boys and girls ( well, mainly girls ) do. Are there more male riders in the states? - so far, the only boys I've met are the farmer who deliveries hay and the farriers

The national riders style terrifies me. I never purposely tried to ride like that!!! There is a brilliant true life story of a show jumper named Snowman that was a plough horse saved from the slaughter house-- that went on to have this most amazing talent for jumping. He was part of the Golden Era of jumping in the 1950s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2UjHp9iWqw
some brilliant vintage clips-- and he has a rider with that national style!!!

And yes I think its interesting to see the old military influence on jumping competitions!

Most of the male riders in the US are cowboys-- there are a few who do English riding-- but they are few and far between!

Hope that you had a wonderful ride and that you enjoy the jumping competition!