Dressage Circle

[I'm Dun]

Has anyone else seen this? I've just signed up and am watching with interest. I know there has been lots of unhappy BD members for a while but as with the other equine sports there isnt really an alternative for affiliated competition. Dressage circle seems to be pitching hard at the level. I'd love to see it succeed.

Dressage Circle

 

[milliepops]

Not for me without BD I am not sure what the structure for training and accrediting of judges would look like. someone has to pay for that and assure a level of standardisation. for that reason alone I'll stick with them... all the various changes to the competition structure do give everyone something to aim for. i don't like the idea of handicaps tbh.

 

[MuddyMonster]

It came up on my FB page as an advert but haven't looked into it. I presumed it was an online dressage competition series but looks like I'm wrong if its similiar to BD. Probably not for me if its at BD type level ?

 

[RachelFerd]

Not for me without BD I am not sure what the structure for training and accrediting of judges would look like. someone has to pay for that and assure a level of standardisation. for that reason alone I'll stick with them... all the various changes to the competition structure do give everyone something to aim for. i don't like the idea of handicaps tbh.

Ditto here. I can't see how this could be anything bar a very bad idea?

 

[I'm Dun]

Ditto here. I can't see how this could be anything bar a very bad idea?

I cant see how it can be anything other than a good thing. A monopoly is never good. Even if it crashes and burns it might make BD a bit more aware that there can be competition.

 

[shortstuff99]

They seem to have copied the riding club structure, particularly with regards to zones (areas in BRC). When asked about it they said they had no idea BRC had areas.

I feel they are trying to cut out BD and BRC. Will watch with interest what happens.

 

[RachelFerd]

I cant see how it can be anything other than a good thing. A monopoly is never good. Even if it crashes and burns it might make BD a bit more aware that there can be competition.

BD is a governing body whose job is to oversee the sport of dressage - sitting under the BEF umbrella and linked to the FEI. There is no need to have a competitor in the market - you can't have multiple governing bodies for exactly the same thing.

 

[j1ffy]

I've signed up as it's free currently and I'm happy to see how it develops. For me, it would only ever be an unaffiliated thing to have a go at rather than a replacement for BD. The lower level tests look quite friendly and it's mostly online this year, which could be handy.

The handicap thing is quite perplexing, I assume one of the founders plays golf?! My handicap is my riding

 

[RachelFerd]

I've signed up as it's free currently and I'm happy to see how it develops. For me, it would only ever be an unaffiliated thing to have a go at rather than a replacement for BD. The lower level tests look quite friendly and it's mostly online this year, which could be handy.

The handicap thing is quite perplexing, I assume one of the founders plays golf?! My handicap is my riding

Handicapping dressage doesn't make any sense. The reason there is a handicap in racing is in order to facilitate a strong betting market. No-one's betting on dressage. Why would you want a situation in which you can do a worse test than someone at the same level and win by default?!

 

[milliepops]

Why would you want a situation in which you can do a worse test than someone at the same level and win by default?!

This is my view.

 

[j1ffy]

This is my view.

And mine. The Bronze / Silver / Gold in BD causes enough angst!

 

[[153312]]

I haven't had enough caffeine to get my head round this; I don't understand "Winners will be drawn at random from eligible entries " at all?

It might work as a fun setup like the Mane Show or something but not sure it will ever be able to compete with BD in terms of affiliated events.

 

[I'm Dun]

BD is a governing body whose job is to oversee the sport of dressage - sitting under the BEF umbrella and linked to the FEI. There is no need to have a competitor in the market - you can't have multiple governing bodies for exactly the same thing.

They arent trying to be a governing body though. They are just offering a different way of competing with a known standard of judge. And thus removing the monopoly from BD. I just cant see why competition and removal of a monopoly is ever a bad thing.

Theres been similar stuff with BE just on a much smaller scale and its been a big success and it seems to be expanding. I'm all for that as well

 

[RachelFerd]

They arent trying to be a governing body though. They are just offering a different way of competing with a known standard of judge. And thus removing the monopoly from BD. I just cant see why competition and removal of a monopoly is ever a bad thing.

Theres been similar stuff with BE just on a much smaller scale and its been a big success and it seems to be expanding. I'm all for that as well

They certainly appear to be trying to be a governing body - setting their own rules, setting their own judge approval process and choosing to exist as a membership organisation alternative to BD, outside of the umbrella of the BEF and FEI and acting in direct competition to BD.

This is *not* me saying that BD is perfect (far from it, I'm sure) but that I firmly believe you are better trying to make positive change to something from the inside rather than compete with it. BD needs to be a broad church for dressage competitors - but choosing to go elsewhere rather than trying to shape central change is destructive not constructive in my view. But then I felt the same about the EU and the UK's role in that

I'm also very concerned about unaffiliated eventing structures - but that's a topic I've covered in a lot of detail on here many times before... I'll try not to repeat myself!

 

[milliepops]

BD's judging structure aligns with the FEI so grass roots dressage has a direct link to world/olympic level sport and to me, if you start having different routes of approval for judging then you are developing a different sport. I've also banged on at length about how competition dressage is a particular sport when people have ideas that are fundamentally at odds with the concept competitive dressage so i also won't repeat those but this feels like (BD style) dressage-ish rather than a direct alternative to BD.

Personally I would be put off by the FEI tests all being in one level which is what it looks like, BD already offer PYO FEI classes.

I wonder if BD will put restrictions on their judges being involved. Like they pulled the BD tests from being able to be used for most online classes.

 

[RachelFerd]

BD's judging structure aligns with the FEI so grass roots dressage has a direct link to world/olympic level sport and to me, if you start having different routes of approval for judging then you are developing a different sport. I've also banged on at length about how competition dressage is a particular sport when people have ideas that are fundamentally at odds with the concept competitive dressage so i also won't repeat those but this feels like (BD style) dressage-ish rather than a direct alternative to BD.

Personally I would be put off by the FEI tests all being in one level which is what it looks like, BD already offer PYO FEI classes.

I wonder if BD will put restrictions on their judges being involved. Like they pulled the BD tests from being able to be used for most online classes.

I could understand if there was wholesale move away from BD type rules - eg. Allowing bitless bridles or removing competition wear guidelines ... But that doesn't seem to be the case. The only thing stopping me enjoying BD is the nature of competitive dressage being subjective. And good luck solving that one ???

 

[LEC]

Interesting that membership doesn’t have 3rd party. Something I think we all take for granted with current memberships. I am also struggling to see how it’s more inclusive other than anyone can take part in the champs!

 

[shortstuff99]

Interesting that membership doesn’t have 3rd party. Something I think we all take for granted with current memberships. I am also struggling to see how it’s more inclusive other than anyone can take part in the champs!

That's only for the first year too, for 2023 onwards you have to win/place in a regional league.

 

[LEC]

That's only for the first year too, for 2023 onwards you have to win/place in a regional league.

Reading between the lines the people who have set this up think there’s is a USP that can make them better, but I am struggling to see what that is?
As someone who has joined BD this year on unexceptional horses, it really seems to cover the whole gamut of things you could possibly want. BRC also does a pretty good range from intro to Adv-Med with 3 different champs for Dr (winter/summer and music). Then there is trailblazers and pony club. So all in all a fair amount not including unaff.

 

[YorkshireLady]

I think its interesting as there are Unaffil alternatives such as Trailblazers and also BRC etc as well as many local unaffil champs. Therefore as others have said this is more something trying to take BD space.

 

[quizzie]

I can’t quite understand how the handicap system is supposed to work…or have they not published details yet?

I also suspect that participation levels will depend on the location of venues that run it, and I can’t see any info on that either (but am not very tech minded..so might easily have missed it!)

 

[Pippity]

Reading between the lines the people who have set this up think there’s is a USP that can make them better, but I am struggling to see what that is?
As someone who has joined BD this year on unexceptional horses, it really seems to cover the whole gamut of things you could possibly want. BRC also does a pretty good range from intro to Adv-Med with 3 different champs for Dr (winter/summer and music). Then there is trailblazers and pony club. So all in all a fair amount not including unaff.

Yeah, I'm really not sure what this is offering that makes it a better option than BD. Better IT? Paperless scoring? Perhaps it will be massively cheaper, once they announce pricing?

The handicap system may make more sense when it's actually up and running but, at the moment, it seems a definite negative. "All riders have an equal chance to go home with a rosette regardless of who is in the class"? Frankly, if Charlotte Dujardin and Valegro are in my intro/level 1/whatever class, they SHOULD have a better chance of getting a rosette than me!

 

[CoachinaCar]

I see it as a good thing for BD. There are lots of Riding Clubs/Dressage Groups that have been running for years. Trailblazers also does a good job for unaffiliated Dressage.

The more there is for people to get started in Dressage and progress until they feel ready to join BD the better. All these unaffiliated clubs will filter members into BD if that is the path they want to take. Some will stay unaffiliated and some will do both.

Many years ago most riders went to Riding Clubs until they were consistently in the top few and then they affiliated. If you wanted to move up a level you tested it out at RC first and agains once you were doing well you then went BD. This was when BD only ran one class at each level. When open and restricted was introduce the restricted took over a bit from RC.

With Bronze and Quest there is now so much for all riders to do that people are joining BD as their first choice to start in Dressage but others will still feel better if they can go unaffiliated first.

Very difficult for anyone to set up in direct competition with BD when you think that BD has been going for many years and has needed all those years to get everything in place.

Good luck to Dressage Circle, the more groups the better.

 

[milliepops]

if you have a handicap on classes though, don't you think the gulf between unaff and aff becomes even greater?

 

[Nicnac]

Never heard of it so have had a read. Lots of staff so unless unpaid, they will have raised funds from somewhere therefore somebody will have seen the mileage in their business plan (unless self-funded which is doubtful).

Upside is it's free for the first year (can't find costs for subsequent years bar the horse a £10 pa); they have alternative dressage tests as the BD/BE ones are long due an overhaul; they have some impressive ambassadors; it's different.
2022 Champs in July but can't see any qualifying classes/venues - is that because I haven't joined? Can see and download tests though.

Will I join - probably not as I have enough trouble fitting in any competitions! I am a BD member but average 2 tests a year. Writing that maybe I should dump BD and join DC as better value for money for me......

 

[RachelFerd]

if you have a handicap on classes though, don't you think the gulf between unaff and aff becomes even greater?

Nevermind that, it also starts to open up opportunities for cheating. As happens in racing (against the rules) - you deliberately do a few poor attempts (fluff up a few bits, make some errors) and then come out a few tests laters and ride properly and win, having essentially fixed it by creating an artificially low handicap mark.

At any rate, with gold silver and bronze BD its hard most the time NOT to come home with a rosette. I don't think a lack of rosettes is an issue that needs fixing!

 

[LEC]

Nevermind that, it also starts to open up opportunities for cheating. As happens in racing (against the rules) - you deliberately do a few poor attempts (fluff up a few bits, make some errors) and then come out a few tests laters and ride properly and win, having essentially fixed it by creating an artificially low handicap mark.

At any rate, with gold silver and bronze BD its hard most the time NOT to come home with a rosette. I don't think a lack of rosettes is an issue that needs fixing!

I am going to create a separate post I think on championship proliferation

 

[I'm Dun]

Nevermind that, it also starts to open up opportunities for cheating. As happens in racing (against the rules) - you deliberately do a few poor attempts (fluff up a few bits, make some errors) and then come out a few tests laters and ride properly and win, having essentially fixed it by creating an artificially low handicap mark.

If someone wants to go to all that effort to cheat then good luck to them. I cant see it as it would take so much effort for almost zero gain.

 

[I'm Dun]

Will I join - probably not as I have enough trouble fitting in any competitions! I am a BD member but average 2 tests a year. Writing that maybe I should dump BD and join DC as better value for money for me......

I joined as its free and theres stuff on locally to me, so worth it. I'm not sure I would have joined BD though, it would depend if there was decent unaffiliated on locally. So I guess I'm not their target market. I still think its a positive thing.

Nothing ever changes in the horse world and theres always lots of moaning about stuff, so I'm happy to see people trying to do new and different things

 

[onemoretime]

Not for me without BD I am not sure what the structure for training and accrediting of judges would look like. someone has to pay for that and assure a level of standardisation. for that reason alone I'll stick with them... all the various changes to the competition structure do give everyone something to aim for. i don't like the idea of handicaps tbh.

Agree with you Milliepops. What is the point of fragmenting the sport of dressage. Certainly in the South East area we have lost a lot of venues and entries are very much lower than 10 years ago so why split it even more.