Dressage Judging

FREESTYLER

FREESTYLER

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Hi,

I would just like to know, for those who have been judged by more than one Judge in one contest, what has been the difference in scores? I think that 10 points may be an average but do you think 26 points difference between Judges is quite high?? I understand that if they are at different angles they may see different things but just interested to know what other peoples comments are.
 
At the area festivals i had 2 judges and they gave me exactly the same mark. However the two horses who came =1st had the biggest differences between the judges, one judge gave them just over 70% and the other judge about 62%!!
 
ummm... Do you think that Judging dressage needs a shake up??? What exactly is the criteria for Judging I wonder? Do you think that there could be improvement somewhere? ie. using the German Training Scale which I noticed has been incorporated in some of the new 2007 tests?? It can be quite disheartening to think you are on the right track as far as training is concerned and then have difference of opinions do you not think??
 
Like ice skating and all the "judged" sports, a fair amount of unofficial bias goes into the ultimate result,
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no matter what the objective and official criteria are supposed to be. I've heard and seen judges (as secretary) give low scores just because they didn't like him/her, because of breeding, because of conformation or even because of rider... Sad but real
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It is a shame though, especially when you are new to the sport and trying to train your horse along the correct lines. I suppose sometimes you have to ignore some Judges comments?! Not very productive though. Now why did I get into dressage??!!
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I was amazed at the winter champs there were often 20 marks difference between judges. ok some mark high but no ,a few horses later it was the reverse.I know they see different views but some are looking for completely different things to others and these are top judges! One judge if he liked them really marked high while the other judge hardly altered her marks this made his judging dominant.I went to a judges day once and judges had to hold up their marks as movements were performed ,it was astonishing the difference and what one judge liked another hated.It was an eye opener
 
Yes ignore some of them I guess
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. They're not all that bad I suppose and you can still learn a lot from the honest professional ones' comments on your score sheet
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That's ok but we work all year to get to a championship and then you get one judge that thinks you are 3rd and one that thinks you are 8th and he gives the one he likes an enormous score.
At qualifiers you can always go to another show but at championships it is your one chance.
By the way how did the horses do that were shown as training for the london olympics thought that promoting them before the champs was a bit unfair on others ,it might influence judges,although judges would say they are impartial no they are human
 
So how can dressage go forward? Yes, I think scoring as you go along would be a good idea, like they do on an electric board at Hickstead. I know that Judges have to attend seminars etc... but are they all being taught along the same lines? I am just trying to understand the scoring and having never been on a Judges seminar maybe an insight into this may help?
 
Going on a Judges Training Seminar is such a good idea for everyone who is interested in furthering their dressage careers and can be a real eye opener.

I was trained along with many others to judge a test using the scales. For instance, you cannot say 'good entry' and not give an 8., the judge must justify a lower mark by adding 'but wobbled off centre line, or halt not straight'. A judge must not be influenced by the beautiful floating WB, as the Dartmore, ShireX etc may be more accurate, may have less tension or softer over the back etc.

A judge must mark as he/she see's the test being ridden and the tests marked have to be consistant.

It is sad, but unfortunately there will always be a 'biased' judge (or even a 'judge with a grudge'). This happens in all walks of life which doesnt encourage newcomers into the sport.

I would encourage anyone to start writing for judges at local level (competitions are always thankful for help) to get an insight and perhaps judge some classes themselves.
 
All listed judges have to go to seminars and training sessions and fulfill other criteria to be able to judge. All judges are trained to judge according to the scales of training and encourages to be honest, realistic and as encouraging as possible (granted this doesnt happen with all judges). There is nothing better than giving high marks to good horses, but we judge what we see and that is not always possible.

When judging from different angles big differences in scores can happen, usually largest from C and B, e.g. if you imagine a halt at X, the judge at C can judge the straightness and the judge at B will get a great view on how engaged the halt is, if the judges are one mark different all the way throught the test then big differences occur, but that is why at championships you have three judges so all the different views and opinions balance out to give a fair, accurate score.
 
I have to agree that dressge judging is really not very well standardised. With the horse i am competing at the moment, all be it unaffliated, some of the comments i get on my score sheets don't make sense.
I always have on my entry comments such as lovely straight centre line or confident entry etc but never get above a 7.
I also had one judging saying the whole throught my test i was restricting my horses shoulder! WTF!! My instructor can't figure that one out and neither can we.
I am also getting confused to what judges actually want to see at Prelim level. In my mind the horse should be working in a correct outline, without tension and obedient. My horse never gets tense, works in outline and only thing i would critcise is her lack of straightness in canter and needs to take some more weight on her hind legs! Judges never pick up her lack of straightness.
Hence why i have now sent of my BD forms in a hope to get better marks and judging
 
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I suppose sometimes you have to ignore some Judges comments?

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Sometimes you just have to shrug shoulders and laugh.
When OH was competing Elem (BD) she was consistently scoring around 65-68%
Did a test with judge we had not come across before. An old dear that could hardly see over the steering wheel. She gave my wife 53%. We reckoned she couldn't see chestnut pony against sand surface and plywood boarding.
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IMHO anyone that simply "ignore" a test sheet has done themselves a huge disservice, affiliated or not - List 6 or List 1 - Prelim or Grand Prix, if you don't understand what or why a judge has marked as they have - for goodness sake find them and discuss - calmly.

Every judge should find the time the discuss your results - it won't change the mark, it can't it's too late for that - but not only may you as the competitor understand a little more where the marks came from, it may also make the judge sit up and think a little.

Maybe they were a little harsh here and there, maybe they couldn't get to say all that they wanted in the time that was available (esp if tests are spaced 6 mins apart).

If the judge disappears from the showground before you get the results, get their details from the organiser - or look in the BD Judges booklet.

Ok, at the end of it you may still not completely agree with them - but atleast you've had the debate.

And then, as others have mentioned - go and offer your services as a writer to the local RC or show centre - they are always in need of volunteer writers and would be only too glad of your time. You'll be surprised what the judge has to deal with and in such a compressed amount of time.
 
We find it very depressing sometimes with what I can only describe as the 'old iron knicker brigade' who think that horses of a certain type shouldnt be in a dressage arena. And before anyone argues YES this happens. We have one particular judge who we can GUARANTEE will give Gen and Mike 10% less than anywhere else he has ever gone to and write pretty condescending comments on the bottom.. Im sure she sees them coming and immediately just switches off.

We really dont mind getting lower marks IF they are fair and IF the accompanying comments are true and constructive. This means that you can go away and USE the sheet to improve what you need to. Isnt that what they are for after all?

Im not knocking judges and tbh its not a job I would want to do. Less face it these people give their precious time, for only travel money and can really only please a very few competitors BUT I do think that some of them need a rocket up their bums and remember what Llwyncwn said further up:

"A judge must not be influenced by the beautiful floating WB, as the Dartmore, ShireX etc may be more accurate, may have less tension or softer over the back etc."
 
Then maybe we are being given too higher scores at BD shows, even regionals. There just needs to be more structure to the Judging or possibly more information for the riders as to what exactly the Judges are looking for through the levels? I must admit I went onto the internet to try and find out about Judging dressage and could not find much, albeit buying a book... maybe someone could help me out on this.??

I did not know whether it was correct to speak to the Judge after as I would have liked to have had his opion and would never think to be rude, I prefer to have constructive critics etc.. I would prefer to have a 4 if it was a 4 and not a 6 etc...as this obviously gives you a false sense of direction. My peev was that the Judge did not even make a comment at the end of my dressage test!
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On both Prelim and Novice! so obviously I had no direction whatsoever!! In my opion I thought this rather rude!
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!BUT again, it was my first time at the Nationals and I did not want to appear unprofessional etc... Also 26 marks difference between Judges is rather harsh!! Sorry.
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.. got that off my chest now... I will say no more!! end of!!
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Folora I know what you are saying though about x-breeds and warmbloods but I can assure you that when you see a x-breed or cob that comes into the arena with rhythmn, balance, connection etc... they still stand out.(although as you say some do have their preference unfortunately).. hence I remember your boy at Patchetts and The College!! Even my friends commented what a lovely consistent pleasing test he did...

I am not bitter.. HONEST!!!
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Just want to understand???!!!I wish I could get prelim test on here so you could see.. there were moment of behind the vertical but from the pictures does he look like he is lacking engagement/tense through the back?? Maybe I am missing something and would really appreciate comments???!!
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Lol and the judges said Gen lacked engagement - we videoed it and if he was anymore underneath himself he would have been overtaking himself.

I know what you mean tho. 26 marks is a BIG difference and to not get any comments was just stupid. How can you learn from that? How do you know what was good and what needs correcting/working on?

I also understand what you mean about asking the judges after the class. They often 'seem' to be in a hurry and like you we would hate to appear rude. Gen is a bit too distinctive and I would get paranoid that they would then remember us as the 'rude ones that queried EVERYTHING'. EEEEKKK!!

Your boy is super and from those photos he is certainly not lacking in engagement and is moving forward freely. In fairness its hard to tell about tenseness on a still photos unless its really obvious and its certainly not that with your boy. Can you stream any of it on video?

If I were you I would stop trying to analyse it too much. You must be doing a good deal right to get to the Nationals.
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We only dream of reaching such heady heights.
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We haven't done a lot of BD dressage but the marking at the lower levels did seem to vary an awful lot. I watched a lovely big horse working in at a show for Novice and thought it had bags of presence, wonderful paces but was incredibly tight in front and could be fooling some people into believing it was going well.
Imagine my surprise to see it's pic in the paper the following week and how it had won it's class...! It lookedlike two different horses joined together to me, and can't see how it could have gone that much better within the test that followed five mins after I saw it!
On the other hand at Prelim level I feel some judges can't decide what they really want to see, often the horses that win go in one of two ways, either like the grey above or long and low ..
I don't profess to be a dressage judge but I have watched dressage for over thirty years, sat and talked with some of the top riders when others were competing or training and found they were as mystified with some judging as me..
When my daughter competes at an ODe I can usually be guaranteed to guess her mark within two or three marks, sometimes I think "Oooh that was generous!" or others, "Damn, what does that judge want?"
I knew that moving our stallion up a level to PN would get him better marks, as his way of going (he works elementary at home) is more in keeping with what the PN judge would expect.
As for your original post, something is very very wrong when two judges' marks can vary by that much.
My personal gripe are judges who give poor marks but don't tell you why, or say at the bottom anything good whatsoever.
I've noticed lately that if you get four comments on a test sheet that's normal, year's ago it was much more detailed and therefore helpful.
I also judged at RC level myself, so know some of the bad bits..
My all time memory is someone who came in to do a test that should have taken 4 mins, they went so fast they finished in under one and a half mins, leaving me with no clear idea of what they did where except it was a blur.. When they finished, they saluted, turned on the spot and galloped (yes galloped) straight out of the arena.. Me and the writer made up some of the comments between us, as I hadn't a clue what the rider had done, so who am I to criticise judges
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Still trying to stream video but think they have put a "stop" on it as I purchased it unfortunately... ahhhhhhh.
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.. ok my number was 106..on both days. You can see as I said previously he was behind the vertical on some movements and I am not saying it was perfect, far from it, he is a big boy to keep together, but normally I come out from a test and think, ummm not so good, not forward from my leg..etc... and my hubby is the first to be critical... but I did not get that feeling .. nor negativity from my hubby!!!

I know I am too critical but just want to learn!!! Maybe I should just chill and enjoy!! Suppose because I have previously had two horses I have had to retire over a period of 7 years and now find I have a horse that is sound and working hard I just want to get it right and move on up??!! I knew I should have stuck to jumping!!!
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You mess up, you know about it!!
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LOL... not really...suppose I will learn in years to come!!
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Always willing to learn and listen!!
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Ok. He is lovely but does like to come behind the vertical a bit and tilt his nose to the right which they will mark down .He and you will need to work on being straight ,in my opinion, but wow you look a lovely pair maybe you are just trying too hard.I know my daughter does that sometimes because she wants to do her very best
 
thanks carhorse, yep, I agree. Take that totallly on board. Now why did that Judge not put that on my sheet!! Aggrhhh... ok.. I will stop!! Te he!! More Transitions, shoulder in and lateral work??
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Hi there, how are you doing?

Judging will always to some degree be subjective though we all try to be working along the same lines and the training available these days is improving all the time. I've been judging for years as well as competing and I get as frustrated as anyone else when I don't get the score I feel I deserve. I also feel just as annoyed when I see someone get a score higher than I feel they deserved!!

When judging on a jury you will see things very differently depending on where you are sitting and it's also worth noting that if two judges give you only one mark different per movement in the 2 championship tests (prelim 17 and novice 22) then your overall score will be 24 marks different in P17 and 27 in N22.

Thats just the difference if you get, say, a 6 of one judge and a 7 off another. Put that way it doesn't seem so bad does it?

In reality it normally works out that some movements are marked the same and others not as for example the judge at C can't see if your halt is at X whereas a judge at E or B will see that clearly but won't see if you are straight on even on the centre line!!

This is why there are always a jury of judges at important competitions as it covers all angles and evens out the possibility that some bias may creep in ie if 2 judges like you and 1 doesn't your result will be much better than if you only had one judge and they didn't like you.

At the really big shows there are 5 judges (Olympics etc) so hopefully between them the result should come out right. If there are any large discrepancies between judges then they will get together and have a discussion after to try and find out how and why the discrepancy occurred. As at the highest level the tests will invariably be videoed then they will watch a replay and try to ensure that they are all singing from the same hymnsheet.

Jane.
 
Hi there, As someone who also does both, ride and judge i fully understand the frustrations.
I think there are several issues here , they are about judging but also about the tests and also the competition structure system.Its even more interesting when you get judged by a continental judge, they are often at the Nationals and they are quite often different.
For me, like it is in Holland at championship level i believe that you should only compete at one level. This affects those at open level more but especially when you are training a horse progressively along correct lines i think it should be one horse at one level. Especially at championship level. You should not have to have a horse going in a 'medium ' way in a novice test. A novice way of going is just that; it has a set level of self carriage the test determines the engagement required by keeping rhythm and relaxation ,straightness and contact during the movements of the test.If those criteria are reached then it should be given the marks accordingly. Sadly this does not happen.I always say that judges get 'Championshipitis'. To me at championship level the marks should be higher , not lower everyone has had to qualify to get there so why are the marks less. Its still a novice the same criteria as all novices so who moved the goal posts? To me this is where the difference in marks comes from because they stop judging the level and then start judging the horse and the rider and the popularity of their decision. So yes it does end up with the 'face ' that fits. Although this will be strongly disputed and you will get the same old same old b**llsh*t .
I go to all the judge training i listen to all the stock responses and everyone trying to agree without 'rocking the boat'. Especially the lower level judges who are all trying to impress.
I have had some very frustrating situation, one judge who told me i missed one of my changes in the 4x tempi's in the PSG , funny how i was on the right leg at the end of the diagonal then! On the video it is possible to see i did them all and they were all correct! mmm!
The other thing is the pet 'resistance' of the judge training seminar that 'you can find no more than a 5 for if you see this' Nothing about where how and why such a situation would result in a resistance... 'mouth open' is one of these situations [i'm pretty sure they mean the horse not the rider!!!!!] The other , especially irritating when you have stallions is..'poll not the highest point' that one has actually lost me a regional title! and is about the judge using a phrase that they have heard but dont really understand .
So there seems to be a huge gap between understanding the parts and how they affect the whole.
I'm going to stop now because its my soap box, i'm always getting into trouble for being a bit of a maverick and not towing the line so if you want to see wild differences intest sheets see some of mine and then tell me it is not personal!!!!!!!!
 
Hiya Jlav,

I am doing just fine thanks!! That puts things into prospective and yes on looking closely at the scoring that is what happened... 6 from one Judge and 7's from the others. Maybe you could send me some "notes" from your Judges seminars etc??? I would love to go and learn to be a Judge but in reality I really do not have enough time in the day. I would like to read about it and maybe there are some good vids, books etc??? Thanks anyway.

Cheers chuck!!
Tania
 
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