Dressage making horses Hot?!

Firewell

Firewell

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Hi,
I have started having dressage lessons with Jae to try and get us focused back on work and to get us back on track after our pregnancy break. I thought I would start with the dressage lessons first before moving on to jumping because he came into work from his break unfit and stiff and cantering like a plank :P.

I am feeling really frustrated with him and myself because he has been a bit naughty and I don't feel as confident as I used to :(. I have had half a dozen lessons now and I can feel a big improvement which is good. He is more stable and light into the contact and much more supple already. However he has also thrown his toys out the pram a couple of dramatic times and I don't know if this is part and parcel of progressing. I have never really focused on dressage much. We have scraped round some Novice BD tests. Prelim (or training level here in the states) we have pretty much down and reguarly get over 70% so it is time we moved on but I have always been more interested in jumping, as he is really good at it.

Jae has been known to be a bit explosive, jumping he can have a bronc if he gets excited. He is one of those that you have to jump a couple times a week to keep him calm as he just loves it so much and he is super at jump off's, he will turn and jump off half a stride without batting an eye. Dressage he has always been really calm but then I have never pushed him. He can be lazy on the flat and likes to sit behind my leg which doesn't help.

Anyway back to the dressage... My trainer has said we have potential to be competing at Medium (or 3rd level) next year and she wants us to come out at Ele in the spring so this is what we have been working towards but it is making Jae really hot! We have been working on getting him in front of the leg with lots of different types of lateral work and really making him take my outside rein on the left which he finds hard and bending on the right which he finds hard. When he finds it hard, I feel him start to bubble underneath me (you know that feeling when they go tense and suck back and you know they are about to go airborne!). If I take off the pressure straight away, i.e let him fall out through the shoulder or stick his head up for a moment I get back control but if I continue to push him he sticks two fingers up at me and bucks.

For example. Last week in my lesson we were working on our right canter and spiralling in and out of the circle, and I was trying to keep my right rein as solid as possible to get him to give into the right and pushing his quarters with my left leg to keep him from popping his ribs out. He is getting more arsey and then a lorry takes it's air breaks off behind the hedge just as we were cantering past and Jae just bloody leaps 7ft in the air, all four feet off the ground and give it all he has in the most enormous buck ever. Thankfully I managed to spin him round on a tight circle and he stops but I am so shaken my RI has to get on him. She canters him around and he goes to be arsey but she has the timing down in a way I don't (FEI level dr rider) and she manages to get him working really well and there's no way he is going to do it with her.

Then this week, we were working on shoulder in to medium trot on the diagonal. It is very windy and he was doing it really well. Giving me a nice shoulder in and then moving off my leg super into a nice Medium. He was really lifting his shoulders and it felt great... Then he starts to find it quite exciting this showing off medium business and on the right rein (it's always on the right rein he's a ****), I feel him start to bubble and half way through the medium he becomes slightly unbalanced and that's it, he breaks into this horrid slow humpy canter, I leg yield him to get him out of it and back to trot and he sticks two fingers up at me again and broncs. I hate it as he makes me feel like I am about to fall off but I spin him in a circle, right and then to the left and he stops and goes forwards. We took it back a step after that just doing some forwards and back in trot to give him confidence that he can control himself and then we finished with some nice canter on the left and right where he was actually bending and not making me feel like he was going to do anything.

The problem is every time I seem to have a lesson or I try to push him in anyway he bucks. He never used to do this before his break! My husband says he is getting back into the groove of things and re learning our partnership and all this stuff. Also I feel a bit more clingy and nervous than usual because of having babies ect. It is really frustrating me.
We have had a few wins since him coming back into work. For instance the first time I rode him in a field he went all tense and horrid and I had to keep him on a 15m circle gradually moving him across the field because I knew if I rode across it in a straight line he was going to do one. Now he walks and trots round it very nicely and calmly so he is getting better there. The first time I took him out on a hack (first time he had hacked for two years as our old yard didn't have off property riding as on a main road) and I had to be put on a lead rein! Seriously, he was just all over the place and I was frightened he was going to slip or come down on the road, can't do my one rein stop on tarmac! Last weekend was the first time I went out all on my own with him and he walked down the lane and back and across a stubble field without one hint of a spook and we past some scary stuff including a huge 10 horse lorry people were herding yearlings onto on the side of the road, a lorry and some spooky crates piled up high and laden with fruit on the roadside so I was really pleased with that and we felt like our old selves again.

Therefore I am hoping this exploding in our lessons is something we also will get over. I feel like we have some good, well behaved rides and then he will have a day where he is a dick and I have to dig really deep to be brave and not let it affect me. Jumping wise I have only popped him over an upright a couple of times because I know because he hasn't jumped for a while that he will be very excited and I am trying to build up to it slowly so as not to provoke the beast so to speak! I also figured that if he's not at the stage where he can hold himself together at canter in our dressage lessons he is not ready to be jumping anything more than a simple fence.
It doesn't help that I can only ride 3/4x a week. He needs working every day really. Also he lives out, which is lovely in a way because he is so low maintenance but also it means he isn't coming in to be handled every day.

I had the vet out to check him to make sure it's not pain and the vet couldn't find any pain responses along his back or legs or feet and he watched him on the lunge and apart from the vet having to chuck sand at his arse because he was being so damn lazy which then prompted a complete bucking fit the vet couldn't see anything of any significance in the way he moved. Even the vet was surprised by he bucking fit. Your lad is normally so chilled out he said! Well yes he normally is but he is being a turd at the moment :/.
So I suppose my questions are 1. Can progressing in dressage make them more hot and reactive. 2. Does it sound like I am doing the right things and 3. Is there anything obvious I should be doing to get him over this phase that I am missing and 4. Reassurance? I feel like a rubbish, nervous rider and I bloody hate it. I got asked out on a fun group hack and I had to say No because I knew I would probably have gotten bucked off if I went. I want to get back to the stage where I can go off and have a canter with some friends and not feel like I might die :/.

Oh also I have been doing a bit of in hand work with him when I have had some spare time. Natural Horsemanship type stuff to get him respecting me on the ground because he kept stopping while being led and not moving! He also kept coming into my space and trying to grab my shirt with his mouth or walking into me. He's 10 by the way and he is a nice tempered horse, he should know better but it's like handling him as a 5yr old again!

Sorry this is hugely long!

Here is a video of him poncing in the field looking amazing if anyone is bored and wants to see.

https://www.facebook.com/alice.macgregor1/videos/10153554108360210/
 
Firstly - you are most definitely NOT a rubbish nervous rider....you've done brilliant things with your boy and it sounds like you've come a long way since you brought him back into work.

Dressage will make horses "reactive" in the sense you want them to react quicker to the aids but it shouldn't ever make them reactive in a negative way, the opposite really. It sounds like you boy just doesn't like the fact he now has to work hard!

The only thing I would say reading it is when he becomes explosive DON'T take the pressure off. The moment you release the pressure is his reward so if you release for the naughty behaviour that becomes acceptable. (I know that's massively easier said than done!). If the small circles work I would spin him as soon as you feel him about to bronc then drive him massively forward as you come out the circle - he needs to know it's not acceptable.

But as I said firstly - please don't start criticising yourself, every one of us does the best we can when we get on our horses and that's all anyone can ever want from us. Keep smiling, you'll get back to where you were pre baby - in fact you'll probably be even better :D
 
Yeah exactly what cheiro said, if he gets arsey, leg on. My horse is in training for dressage and he is being a prat at times, trying to bounce on the spot (at one point he was cantering on the spot so piaffe should be easy :P ), I just tell him to behave and put my leg on. He then tried spinning and I kept ignoring him so he gave up. I find if I move his head around and force his attention back to me while keeping the leg on he gets better quickly. But it is hard its taken me ages to get this confidence with him only had him 4 months, although its seemed longer, and he has been acting like a prat for about a month as we have stepped up his training.

Maybe get his back checked though for peace of mind. I am getting my horses done as he is disuniting a lot in canter especially on circles and its with pro rider too so not just me thank god. Might be worth checking.
 
Agree with all that's been said above, if you can rule out anything physical then it could be he is finding the work challenging and is challenging you to make him do it! Get a neckstrap or balance strap on your saddle and next time you feel him tense to have a moment, hold on! Once you have ridden through a couple of episodes you should feel more confident that you can cope with his antics and he will realise you're not going to be so easy to beat. It isn't easy when they react like this and I completely sympathise with how you are feeling but I seriously cannot recommend a balance strap enough for giving you that extra bit of confidence when you need it most! All the best x
 
Agree with all the "push him through it" advice up there ^^^, but also want to add that he may be finding all this "proper" work quite difficult and having to use muscles that he hasn't used in quite this way before, might be a little sore. Keep at it!
 
Would he normally buck on the lunge?

I think you had problems before finding a decent back person? Maybe you could try a massage rug, if he is sore that should help?

I have bought a book of horsey stretches that help increase flexibilty etc. if you have any vauge knowledge of anatomy/physio stuff you can work out which bit of your horse is weskest?
 
Can I be radical and suggest slowing down the dressage progression a wee bit? After all, you are just getting back into riding after having a baby, and it sounds as if he hasn't done a lot of dressage prior to now. Did he also have time off while you were pregnant? Having the 'potential' to compete at 3rd Level and actually doing it are not the same thing. 2nd/3rd Level are where the real collection begins, and a lot of horses and riders find that a difficult step up from 1st Level. Reading your post, it sounds like Jae is athletic enough to do the stuff, shoulder-in, medium gaits, and so on, but he's not entirely 'on the aids' and accepting of it.

Dressage should make them quicker and more reactive to your aids, but ideally, it should also make them softer and more obedient. And remember, when you start asking for collection, you are effectively asking the horse to lift weights. If the horse is still developing the muscles for this, he may not be strong enough to find the collection easy, and reponds by exploding. Just like you lifting a couple 10kg barbells; it hurts!

Your trainer, if she were riding the horse herself every day and did not mind sitting through the explosions, could probably get him working at 3rd by the spring. But you're the one riding the horse. If I were in your shoes, I would be focusing on getting the horse reliably on the aids and soft. That means in front of the leg, giving to the hands, and pushing with his hindquarters and swinging with his back, but not collected (yet). And working in that manner in all situations -- on a hack, in the field, in the arena. Once the horse is working consisently on the aids, you ask for collection in small doses, increasing the amount of time he is collected and the difficulty of the movements gradually. Perhaps I am misreading your post, but it sounds as though you guys are reaching for more challenging movements and collection while not being fully confident and reliable in the basics: rhythm, relaxation, impulsion, connection.
 
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Thanks in response to the replies it's 2nd level for the spring (and possibly) 3rd level by this time next year. Also it's more to give us something to aim for rather than sat in stone.
He may be finding it hard after his break. He has been back in work 3 months now so is still building up fitness really. We have the basics down. He has been working soft and round ect for years :p. I always make him work properly every time I ride him. However when I say I haven't done much dressage I don't mean schooling. He's schooled again 2-3x per week and is very well developed muscle wise for a TB. He's also done a lot of training and 1st level. I mean I have never focused on dressage in an 'we do dressage' type way as he has been an eventer/showjumper/dressage allrounder. He's done it all.
However the extent of lateral work my trainer is pushing on us as this stage maybe a bit too much fitness wise. Maybe I need to ask.her to bare in mind he's using himself in a way he hasn't for a while. Tbh I think she gets excited! She sees us doing things and probably thinks he is ready for more than he is. She is my friend and knew us pre baby, she is used to the fit version of us.
Thanks!
P.s I asked vet about back man and he said he wouldn't want me to waste my money as Jae doesn't have a sore back but maybe I.will get one anyway.
 
Really great timing for this thread - I've timehad almost the exact same with my beast this morning!! Trying to push it with some lateral work after a week off so was attempting some shoulder fore in walk. Fine on the right rein but on the left he just wants to curl his neck &/or throw his quarters in. As soon as I made him stay straighter - major hissy fit!! Which was then repeated every time I tIt's so difficult to know if it's a pain thing or just attitude when he finds something challenging isn't it???(he's done it before when pushed out of his comfort zone/not allowed to just do what he wants)
 
Really great timing for this thread - I've had almost the exact same with my beast this morning!! Trying to push it with some lateral work after a week off so was attempting some shoulder fore in walk. Fine on the right rein but on the left he just wants to curl his neck &/or throw his quarters in. As soon as I made him stay straighter - major hissy fit!! Which was then repeated every time I tried after that. It's so difficult to know if it's a pain thing or just attitude when he finds something challenging isn't it???(he's done it before when pushed out of his comfort zone/not allowed to just do what he wants). No advice but just thought that I'd add that I feel your pain!! Mine is also a bit backward & can be quite nappy. Bloody horses.
 
I think you have to go with your gut feeling on this one, you know this horse you have owned him for a while. Does he tend to throw his toys out of the pram when pushed a but? If yes then this sounds like a new evasion and you need to find a way through it. If this is totally uncharacteristic behaviour then I'd be tempted to discuss further investigations with the vet. Did he do a full lameness work up? Would a physio be a good idea? KS springs to mind and might be worth discounting if you go down this route.
 
Yep, not that unusual. Mine has exactly the same tendancies when he has had time off or I'm teaching him something that is hard. I get the 'i simply can't cope' attempt to drop behind my leg/out through the shoulder, followed by spectacular fake spook/leap through the air/twirling around mid leap.
To be fair he doesn't do it much anymore, but when he did I just used to wait for him to have all 4 feet back on the floor and then strong leg on into canter. So I would echo what others have said - if you can then push on through.
My horse does have pssm, so I think it has quite a bit to do with that....once he's had a good strong canter to free his muscles up he can usually do what he found hard (that caused the explosion), with relative ease. So I would agree with previous posters that suggest he is muscularly finding it quite hard - he'll probably even out again when he's got his strength and fitness back :)
 
Thanks. I am really pleased I am not the only one! Ummm no he doesn't really chuck his toys out the pram normally but then again he has never had 6 months off before and I don't usually push him with so much technical stuff. He likes to have a buck when excited, he's always been like that but its only ever a quick bronc, I pull his head up and on we continue. He may try that sort of thing cantering in a field after a day off or jumping after a few weeks not jumping. The usual stuff that TBs find interesting ;).
I gave him a day off after his lesson yesterday and this morning we went round the fields at his livery yard walk and trot and he was a pleasure. Not spooky at all at the other horses galloping around or the man with the leaf blower which got me thinking. The past two lessons I have felt we were ready to finish a good 20 mins before we finished. Next time I am going to ask for a 30 minute lesson instead as it is usually towards the latter half that he has been naughty.
I think he is trying really hard to do what I want but he's getting tired, it's difficult and it makes him hyper sensitive.
I also agree I need to push him on more when he does do it. Plan of action... give him the benefit of doubt, expect him to work so we can improve but for a shorter time frame until I feel he is fitter. If he still does it, be firm and not back off him and also get a back man out. I don't think he has KS or anything serious. His back isn't sore and he has improved since being worked in terms of stiffness ect. We have had a horse with KS and she always was tender on her back under the saddle to the point the physio couldn't help her, she was cold backed to mount and when she bucked it was to get her rider off and there was no riding through it :p.
 
My back lady does their whole body. His back might be fine, but another bit of him might be a bit stiff and achy, so its probably worth doing as one of those routine maintenance things, especially if hes now being asked to work a bit harder and in a different way :)
 
Even if the horse was fit and was working correctly pre-baby, he's had six months off. 2nd Level is a lot to expect for an unfit horse. And even if he was working soft and round, lateral movements are a different kettle of fish, and require more stretching. If the horse isn't fit, and not used to that, it's not surprising he's resisting. I'd buck too!

I know how I feel if I've taken even a couple months off of hillwalking, and then hike up a mountain. Unlike me, the horse doesn't have the brain power to understand that it will get better with improved fitness, and it's good for him.

Lateral movements are great for the horse, but maybe work them in more gently.
 
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He has been back in work 3 months though, so does have a good base line level of fitness surely? Its just pushing his comfort zone a bit and hes objecting. I dont think its excessive after 3 months to be asking more schooling wise?
 
Yeah, but 2-3x per week isn't a lot, if you're expecting the horse to do more gymnastic stuff.

When I was working for a summer in New York City, I was only riding a couple times per week and I had to lower my expectations until uni started again and I was back to riding 5 or 6 days per week. There was no way that horse (Shire-TBX) was going to maintain the same level of fitness and elasticity to show at 2nd Level (which is what I did the previous summer) with the significantly reduced workload.
 
I think he'll be fit enough by next year ;). It's only an elementary level test and it's 5 months away before our first dressage show. It's not going to test him anymore physically then three day eventing or three showjumping classes with jump offs in a row which he has done in the past. Of course we will build up to it as he has had time off. Schooling 2/3x per week didn't include the rest of the work (jumping, interval training, hacking) he did to be competition jumping fit and we will get back. I don't think my grand prix trainer would suggest we aim for something we can't do. She wants me to do well, it's good for business ;).
 
Sorry also I wasn't quite clear.. he's being worked 4x per week at the moment but we should be back to 5/6x per week as my baby gets older. It's already so much easier now he's 3 months old to when he was 3 weeks. Until that point though I definitely think a 30min lesson is enough. Reading back I do think the sessions have been too long for him, bless him.
 
Mine used to be like this (still is, sometimes!) - if he boils over, you don't get any sense out of him for the next 15 minutes. I would suggest as soon as you feel him starting to struggle, stop, long rein walk for a few minutes. Then pick him back up and go back to whatever you we doing as if nothing has happened.

It's important that you do go back to what you were asking for - it's a short timeout to ease pressure, not a way to avoid doing something :)
 
If he hasn't been like this before I would say it's a pain response but then you have had the all clear from your vet. Has he changed shape while he's been off, could it be his saddle? TB's are so incredibly sensitive, the slightest thing can put them off. I also have one that can throw the most enormous bucks and it has really knocked my confidence. Like you, I take the pressure off when I feel he is about to explode. It's always so easy for someone else to say ride through it when they are not the one about to get launched in the air. What's your gut feeling. Is he basically a nice horse, he looks it and is he trying to tell you something. Is he saying' I can't be arsed' or is he saying 'Ouch'. It's so hard to tell. I must admit if I push my boy he pushes back but if he was exploding like yours I would investigate further.
 
Hi,
To update we had another training session today. I asked for a slightly easier seaaion and we started off with working on transitions, turn on the forehand and turn on the haunches and finished off with stretchy work over trotting and canter poles. Getting him to really round over the poles and use his back.
He was really good and felt great, no hint of anything naughty and it was very windy today.
No I don't think it is pain, that's not what my instincts say. I think he was getting into the groove of things again and perhaps testing me a bit when he found things hard/exciting. I think he found the mediums exciting last week.
 
Think about this as you were going to the gym after a break. You will pick up your previous fitness reasonably quickly (muscle memory) but then you start to do other exercises you have never done before and you will hurt. That is how your horse is feeling. Think about using your dressage to flex and soften and then introduce the new stuff gradually to give his muscles time to adapt and strengthen. I learnt this myself when I considered myself quite fit as walk dogs, ride, and was training at the gym as well. Walked up a very steep hill for a couple of hours assuming I would be fine. I was so sore for about a week afterwards and it felt like I had been kicked in the backside...
 
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