Dressage People - Flashes/Grackles

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I will admit now that I know nothing about dressage and have never done a test in my life. But the little I do know suggests that it is all about the schooling and the harmony between horse and rider.

Why then do so so many people ride tests in flashes or grackles!?! They aren't allowed in flat showing classes!

The reason I am asking is because someone had put up a post about all their successes at the weekend with various different ponies and horses and every single one of them is wearing a flash or a grackle.

Is it just the new fashion trend? Is it how judges know who is who - like in showing when teams have their own browband or tweed made up so you can't mistake them!?
 

criso

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Alot of bridles seem to come as flashes as default and everyone from kids up start with that without thinking whether they even need one. Drops were making a bit of a comeback at one point, I've used a loosely done up drop with a horse that didn't like a cavasson and what you can't do in dressage is not have a noseband at all
 

milliepops

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I'd say, because it's in the rules that it's allowed, so why wouldn't you if you have a horse that tends towards opening its mouth.

whether it should be in the rules or not is another matter.
In the last 10 years I've ridden one in a drop, she does yawp on the bit occasionally so I'd rather she didn't get into that habit. she was a retrainer. now in a double so we have to use a cavesson and cope with the occasional yawp.

everything else has gone in a cavesson but my take on things is that with many horses, if the bit generally fits then it's mostly a training thing, as they learn to accept the contact properly then eventually most will stop opening their mouths. therefore I use it as a sort of diagnostic - if the mouth stays shut then we're on the right track. but I'm an amateur bumbling around, and it's not going to be the difference between me going to the nationals or not. sometimes the tiny margins are the things that make the difference.
 

ycbm

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Well it's not new, Elf, it's been going on for a couple of decades. Grackles used to be banned BD, but people were fitting Cavessons high and allowing the flash to pull the top piece down, and legally creating effectively what is grackle. At least that nonsense ended when grackles became permitted.

They are used by many people just because everyone else does. For the rest, it's to stop the horse opening its mouth and losing marks.

I'll normally put a mouth closing noseband on in a test even though I try not to use them at home, for that reason. There's no point in throwing away marks when it's legal and expected.

I would like them banned, though it will cost me marks if I ever compete Ludo.
.
 

Griffin

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Personally, I don't like to use grackles or flashes and if it was up to me, I would ban them.

However, looking at it from a different perspective, perhaps the way dressage is marked should change so that riders don't feel they need to use artificial aids e.g. a flash to keep a horse's mouth shut, to make sure they don't lose marks.
 

Wheels

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Some people might call opening the mouth an evasion but in many cases it is the horse trying to escape discomfort / pain from the bit pressure / crushing the tongue.

I only use a loose fitting cavesson (not a crank!) and if my horse opens his mouth it is my cue to change what I am doing
 

NinjaPony

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In a perfect world no one would ever need a grackle or flash.
Horses don’t tend to read the perfect rule book though.
I’m actually glad they have allowed grackles because I prefer them to flashes as they distribute the pressure much more evenly over the horses head.
There are plenty who will be using them as a fashion statement, or to cover up schooling issues. Same people who whack a double in before the horse is ready....
But that doesn’t mean they don’t have their place if correctly used.
Showing has its sins too- I have never understood why some people insist on shoving a 5 year old into a double, or why adult horse classes insist on this.
I speak as someone who never needed to use a flash or grackle when out competing on my boy and I’d certainly seek to avoid it if possible.
But it’s also worth considering that quite often horses are different at shows... your horse might school beautifully at home, and then play up a bit out competing, and you might then reach for the noseband to try and work through the issue safely.
 

Cortez

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But surely if the horse is being ridden and schooled correctly then the need to strap it's mouth closed should not exist?
I completely agree with this ^^^^, but the use of the flash noseband has become so ingrained in the lower levels of the dressage world that it is now almost impossible to buy a bridle without one, and quite a few people use one without thinking or understanding how it works. The grakle is slightly more forgiving, but still serves to mechanically keep the horse's mouth shut.

In a perfect world no one would ever need a grackle or flash.
Horses don’t tend to read the perfect rule book though.
I’m actually glad they have allowed grackles because I prefer them to flashes as they distribute the pressure much more evenly over the horses head.
There are plenty who will be using them as a fashion statement, or to cover up schooling issues. Same people who whack a double in before the horse is ready....
But that doesn’t mean they don’t have their place if correctly used.
Showing has its sins too- I have never understood why some people insist on shoving a 5 year old into a double, or why adult horse classes insist on this.
I speak as someone who never needed to use a flash or grackle when out competing on my boy and I’d certainly seek to avoid it if possible.
But it’s also worth considering that quite often horses are different at shows... your horse might school beautifully at home, and then play up a bit out competing, and you might then reach for the noseband to try and work through the issue safely.
5 year olds shouldn't have to be "shoved" into a double bridle, they should be sufficiently well schooled to understand their training and go kindly in one, there is no reason why not IF the training has been correctly carried out. The ultimate goal of training a horse for riding is to go in the full bridle which enables the fine tuning and refinement that the double provides. I am well aware that the majority of horses nowadays never reach that level however, and many horses in the show ring are not properly schooled.
 

J&S

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Or they just think it looks cool? Personally I hate flashes and have not used a grackle, even though they were very much in favour many years ago. When I was looking for a bridle for my coloured mare it was a huge hunt to find one with out a flash noseband.
 

NinjaPony

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[QUOTE="Cortez, post: 14366216
5 year olds shouldn't have to be "shoved" into a double bridle, they should be sufficiently well schooled to understand their training and go kindly in one, there is no reason why not IF the training has been correctly carried out. The ultimate goal of training a horse for riding is to go in the full bridle which enables the fine tuning and refinement that the double provides. I am well aware that the majority of horses nowadays never reach that level however, and many horses in the show ring are not properly schooled.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I’m just pointing out that the majority of 5 year olds will not be at the level of training and refinement that the double bridle needs to be used properly. Yet all adult horse/pony showing classes require them, even if the horse/pony doesn’t need it to perform well in the class. It always baffled me that I couldn’t take my Connie in his snaffle, even though he went round BD elementary classes in it very happily. At least with BD you are given the choice.
Speaking personally, I wouldn’t want my 5 year old in a double... slow and steady wins the race and there’s plenty of time to introduce it once they are stronger and more established.
I digress!
 

Cortez

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Speaking personally, I wouldn’t want my 5 year old in a double... slow and steady wins the race and there’s plenty of time to introduce it once they are stronger and more established.
I digress![/QUOTE]


Why wouldn't you want your 5 year old to be sufficiently well trained to be in a double bridle? I believe you have the choice to ride in a snaffle in the show ring, you just won't be placed very high up....
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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But surely if the horse is being ridden and schooled correctly then the need to strap it's mouth closed should not exist?
Absolutely!
I don't own a flash, except one strap that's used for a tie on a gate.....
A well fitted drop worked v well in early days with B Fuzzy when doing faster work, we now do everything in simple cavesson except xc where I do have a grackle at present.
I'm keeping her in the bomber eggbutt, sits nice and still in her mouth.
 

McFluff

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Personally I’ve always found it strange that you can use a flash in BD but can’t use no noseband.
My mare was better with no noseband. The cavesson just seemed uncomfortable for her and she’d open her mouth (I had her checked by a vet who was also a dentist and her teeth were fine, she just had sensitive cheeks). Perfectly still and closed without any noseband. She was happy in a drop but her muzzle was so short that I didn’t like how low it sat. She was good in a micklem (which is sort of a drop) but had that not worked next stop was a grackle as they avoid the fleshy cheeks. None of these choices were about strapping her mouth shut. And I’d have competed without a noseband if allowed.
 

Mrs B

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From the other end of the scale, I entered a little local charity dressage competition a few years ago and was rather take aback to be told I couldn't compete without a noseband. And yes, from that you can tell I don't usually compete!
My horse at the time worked nicely enough at Prelim level with just a loose-ring snaffle and a headpiece plus brow-band so I asked why - the answer was 'because it's in the rules'.

I managed to borrow a cavesson from a very kind competitor and all was well but I still don't really understand the real reason why 'less' is not allowed when 'more' is ...

ETA x-posted with McFluff!
 

shortstuff99

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What irks me the most about this is if you use a miklem you are told it could encourage the judge to look for a contact issue and yet not if you use a flash or grackle which are used literally for contact issues....

None of mine use a flash or grackle and none have contact issues. One of mine is ridden in a miklem because she prefers it not for a contact problem ?‍♀️
 

Mule

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I was in a group lesson at a ridng school recently and I was riding one of the school horses ( the walking vet bill is off while we try to get his copd treatment sorted ):rolleyes:

Anyway, the horse I was riding snatched at the reins a couple of times so I asked the instructor to see if the bit was ok. She had a look and said it was fine but she said she would shut his mouth by tightening the flash and that would stop it. I wondered what was the point, surely during a lesson you try to solve these things, not cover them up. How are you supposed to improve otherwise. The snatching did stop but whether that was because of the flash or because I changed my rein contact, I don't know.
 
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criso

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Fwiw I've never found it difficult to buy a bridle with a cavesson noseband, I own several different brands ?‍♀️

It's not that you can't get cavessons, but if you go into a tack shop round here, there will be many more flashes to choose from than cavessons. I was in one a while back and the cavessons were labelled as showing bridles. I just had a quick look at the bridles from Henry James Saddlery and there are 4 flash bridles, 2 grackles, a crank and a cavesson. The first shown is listed as a dressage bridle and has a flash. The loop is removable so you could convert it to a crank however it is displayed with the flash strap giving the idea it is the default.

The people on here have clearly though about what they use and why however on livery yards, most horses and ponies are in flashes and I don't think it's a conscious decision. Someone was asking me if a noseband fitted and I asked if the horse needed a flash and she said well that's how they come. A lot of teenagers now seem to want grackles, I heard one talking about what she wanted for her next horse, the horse she hadn't got yet.

I had a long gap of horses between going to uni and coming back to it as an adult. When I left flashes were mentioned in books as an option if you needed a standing martingale and a drop, when I started again, firstly at riding stables and schools, every horse had a flash on.

ETA when I've been horse shopping, sellers have presented horses to try in flashes, professionals and private sellers.

Just had a look on the Stubben site and every bridle except an in hand and the double has a flash
 
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Mule

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It's not that you can't get cavessons, but if you go into a tack shop round here, there will be many more flashes to choose from than cavessons. I was in one a while back and the cavessons were labelled as showing bridles. I just had a quick look at the bridles from Henry James Saddlery and there are 4 flash bridles, 2 grackles, a crank and a cavesson. The first shown is listed as a dressage bridle and has a flash. The loop is removable so you could convert it to a crank however it is displayed with the flash strap giving the idea it is the default.

The people on here have clearly though about what they use and why however on livery yards, most horses and ponies are in flashes and I don't think it's a conscious decision. Someone was asking me if a noseband fitted and I asked if the horse needed a flash and she said well that's how they come. A lot of teenagers now seem to want grackles, I heard one talking about what she wanted for her next horse, the horse she hadn't got yet.

I had a long gap of horses between going to uni and coming back to it as an adult. When I left flashes were mentioned in books as an option if you needed a standing martingale and a drop, when I started again, firstly at riding stables and schools, every horse had a flash on.
I also had a long break and I noticed that too. Another thing was when I learned as a child, I was taught that you fit two fingers between the noseband and the nasal plane. When I started again about 7 years ago I noticed it's now two fingers between the noseband and the little hollow they have on the side of their face. Which is interesting because there is a natural gap there anyway so it would be odd if you couldn't get at least one finger in there.

It's a bit off topic but I also only remembers numnahs back then, I never saw saddlepads, now it's the oppostite.
 

DabDab

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Personally I’ve always found it strange that you can use a flash in BD but can’t use no noseband.
My mare was better with no noseband. The cavesson just seemed uncomfortable for her and she’d open her mouth (I had her checked by a vet who was also a dentist and her teeth were fine, she just had sensitive cheeks). Perfectly still and closed without any noseband. She was happy in a drop but her muzzle was so short that I didn’t like how low it sat. She was good in a micklem (which is sort of a drop) but had that not worked next stop was a grackle as they avoid the fleshy cheeks. None of these choices were about strapping her mouth shut. And I’d have competed without a noseband if allowed.

Yup, I have one who doesn't really care for a noseband of any description. Because I want to compete her eventually I do put one on for a few weeks at a time, but it's annoying that I can't just compete without one. I tried a loose flash on her once to see if she preferred it (I kinda knew what the answer would be, but hey, worth a try), and we developed an dramatic head shake like she had a fly in her ear.
 

milliepops

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It's not that you can't get cavessons, but if you go into a tack shop round here, there will be many more flashes to choose from than cavessons. I was in one a while back and the cavessons were labelled as showing bridles. I just had a quick look at the bridles from Henry James Saddlery and there are 4 flash bridles, 2 grackles, a crank and a cavesson. The first shown is listed as a dressage bridle and has a flash. The loop is removable so you could convert it to a crank however it is displayed with the flash strap giving the idea it is the default.

The people on here have clearly though about what they use and why however on livery yards, most horses and ponies are in flashes and I don't think it's a conscious decision. Someone was asking me if a noseband fitted and I asked if the horse needed a flash and she said well that's how they come. A lot of teenagers now seem to want grackles, I heard one talking about what she wanted for her next horse, the horse she hadn't got yet.

I had a long gap of horses between going to uni and coming back to it as an adult. When I left flashes were mentioned in books as an option if you needed a standing martingale and a drop, when I started again, firstly at riding stables and schools, every horse had a flash on.

ETA when I've been horse shopping, sellers have presented horses to try in flashes, professionals and private sellers.

Just had a look on the Stubben site and every bridle except an in hand and the double has a flash
I understand that. But people say they struggle to find them. If you just google cavesson bridle, zillions come up just in the google shopping ads. It's not like they've stopped being made, thats all, so the struggling people can't be trying that hard ?
 

Mule

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I understand that. But people say they struggle to find them. If you just google cavesson bridle, zillions come up just in the google shopping ads. It's not like they've stopped being made, thats all, so the struggling people can't be trying that hard ?
Ooh I just noticed your new avatar, they look gorgeous, I love Hera's ears *squee (cuteness):D
 

claret09

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i only ever ride my boy in a caveson and a rotary snaffle. he does likes to wave his tongue at the judge. however, it is not tension he just does it out of habit and i am not going to do what some judges would like me to do - ie strap his mouth shut. he doesn't need it. with some judges we loose lots of marks because they are obsessed with him and his tongue. they need to see the whole picture. at 23 i am not going to change him and nor would i wish to.
 

criso

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I understand that. But people say they struggle to find them. If you just google cavesson bridle, zillions come up just in the google shopping ads. It's not like they've stopped being made, thats all, so the struggling people can't be trying that hard ?

Maybe people don't try that hard. If I was looking for a bridle, I too would do lots of googling, have some ideas re brands and would find what I want. Probably take me months to decide apart from when I bought a horse and had nothing and bought a cheap bridle on ebay as a stop gap which I still have years later - and it was a cavesson. However lots of people just go to their local tack shop which these days stock such a variety of items from bling to matchy saddle pads, don't actually have that great a range of tack. They are really helpful and would order in if you needed them as all the makes they stock, do produce cavessons but I'm not sure people would take the trouble to ask and wait.

I mentioned Stubben, a brand that lots of people have heard of and like, not a single cavesson shown on their site though the flashes do convert. https://stuebben.co.uk/accessories.html?cat=147
 

Otherwise

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Flashes have been fashionable for a long time, then it looked like drops were going to make a come back but now it looks like grackles (and other weird new designs that are essentially grackles) are the in thing. God knows what the next fad will be, it would be nice if it was nosebandless but it will probably be some other form of strapwork to shut the mouth and paper over training issues.
 
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