dressage people

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melle

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In your experience , does dressage have to be 'forced' out of the horse?

Since I have ridden at my current yard and broken my horse in at christmas I have been much more involved in dressage but a becoming a bit disillusioned. I see over use of the whip, spurs, spur marks, use of double bridles before they are ready etc

However if I have ever questioned it I have been told that horses don't want to work that hard naturally and have to be persuaded to do as they are told. I am starting to think that my view of being able to school a horse harmoniously is just unrealistic but equally if this is what it takes to compete at dressage I am not sure I want to go down this route.

Am I just being soft?
 
You should not have to force a horse "to do dressage". The horse should be willing and want to work with you. They should have a healthy respect for what they are being asked to do, but you will never earn this respect by sticking them in gadgets and making their life uncomfortable.
Your idea is not unrealistic so stick to it and i can guarantee your horse will be a lot happier and work much more correctly than the ones that are being strapped down and kicked in the ribs!!!
 
nope, they are idiots with no feel and no respect for the horse. dressage is supposed to be about harmony and lightness, willing co-operation, dancing with your horse, not raping him on the dancefloor. they are butchers and have absolutely no idea.
 
Trust your gut, my boy isn't built for dressage but I do it as I feel it will help him muscle and move correctly. To a certain extent if you ask a horse to do lateral work etc and it is stiff and unfit then it probably will tell you it doesn't particularly want to do it, but in my experience anyone who is any good doesn't get a load of kit and force the horse in to submission, but gently encourages it with easy ways to achieve what is being asked so that they can build the horse up to its work in a sympathetic manner.

My instructor rides with spurs for precision aiding and only uses as is needed, I don't ride with spurs as I have tried never to override my horse so he is very light off the leg and I am not experienced or competant enough to use spurs correctly. In dressage a horse should be able to work freely and obediently in a snaffle, when you compete you don't have to use a double bridle until you achieve quite a high level and I have always thought the best trained horses can be ridden in minimal tack - I am sure loads of people might disagree with this simplistic view, but I have a happy very forward going ned who on the whole always tries his very best within his limitations.

I would go for a good intructor who knows what they are doing, rather than listen to those you already feel uncomfortable with. They should be able to train you to ride through your seat not just leg and quite often are BHS qualified but have branched out into their own more unstanding methods. If you have just backed your horse just school a couple of times a week for 20mins and concentrate on response to aids and a calm manner that will get you a long way, it should be fun not a chore for you both and you can easily do some schooling out hacking too.
 
I don't know. I mean some horses do have a more wilful and unwilling streak than others don't they? And I have no problem with spurs or the whip on the whole, I just have a gut feeling about this that I have tried to ignore for the last 18 months. It won't go away!!

I think the logic here is that by being very black and white the horse will soon learn the boundaries?
 
re: "My instructor rides with spurs for precision aiding and only uses as is needed"

god YES, thank goodness some people understand. Spurs are not designed to make the horse go forward off the leg, training does that. they are there to help the rider give a more precise, refined aid.

Melle, stick to your instincts. there are brilliant trainers out there who train to a very high level with tact, perseverance, and respect for the horse. you just have to find one!
 
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dancing with your horse, not raping him on the dancefloor.

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Dressage that is forced to that extent would to me result in a tense horse in a forced outline and poor submission results??

I know someone who trains by force saying that and her horses get very good marks
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agreed, Miller. plus the fact that tense and tight muscles, ligaments and tendons are much more likely to get strained and sprained.
judges should not reward that kind of riding, that's the trouble. too much tension should equal bad marks imho.
 
Um hardly, it sound like they have completely missed the point of dressage, here is my 4 year old, only started in January and worked very lightly since due to my 9 month old baby at his first ever ridden competition in september, no forcing here!


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I do think some people think that if the horse has its head in, then it is working correctly. But it is more important for the horse to be working through from behind than where its head is for me.

Hannah is not the most willing horse, and I do admit that we have had a few arguments in the 6 years I have owned her
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But, I now know exactly how to soften her through her mouth and there is no forcing or pushing her into it, it is more a conversation between her mouth and my hands. I do wear spurs and use a whip when riding Grace, but she is pretty forwards from my leg so they are additional aids to allow me to make the aids more subtle when riding a test.
 
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I think the logic here is that by being very black and white the horse will soon learn the boundaries?



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That is actually quite correct however how much you expect from you horse each time you ride and where you set those boundaries are what can make the difference between harmony and forced. As your horses work improves you would expect more each time and so those boundaries will move as his training progresses but knowing how much to push a horse each time is a real skill and very difficult to get just right so I tend to air on the side of not enough rather than too much.
 
I understand that horses need you to be consistent, but is it wrong to expect that if a horse argues a lot there is probably a reason for it? Or do you think it is possible for them to be sh1tty just because?

My mare was very behind my leg right form the start and we recently found out that her adjustable saddle was broken and pinching her withers. Now I think I worry too much and would have noticed this if it had not been for people around me telling me she was probably just being lazy and playing up.

We now have new saddle and had forward movement until my last couple of lessons when my instructor said she was running away from my leg now and to bring her back a bit, where upon she now keeps 'hopping' behind, doesn't track up and feels like she is holding herself behind the saddle.
 
re: "by being very black and white the horse will soon learn the boundaries"

yes, if he knows what/where they are?!

that's why jumping is so much easier in a way, the horse can understand what you want very simply. jump the fence (ideally don't knock it down)!
for dressage, it's a lot more complicated, and if the rider is giving contradictory or inconsistent signals (and how many of us are good enough to know that we gave exactly the right aid in perfect balance and preparation at the perfect moment, every time?), then it's not surprising that horses get confused and sometimes resistant.
also, it is human nature that if something doesn't work the first time, we change it, do it stronger/harder/twice/whatever, which to the horse must often seem like a totally different question.
add in variables like uncomfy saddles, bits, teeth, backs, and you can have a LOT of totally justifiable resistence on the horses' part, and very frustrated riders...
 
I can empathise completly with you here
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Before i left the UK, i liveried on the yard belonging to a rather high profile dressage trainer. In addition to her running the place, we had numerous other "high profile" riders and trainers on and off the yard all the time. It was meant to be inspirational (or so i thought).

I bought a horse off the trainer who owned the yard. She had him as a youngster, trained him up, competed him and so on. We bought him as a school master and a start for dressage for me!

Ive seen some horrendous things during my time on that yard and I understand what you are saying 100%. Horses were ridden with very heavy hands, there was a lot of use of spurs and whips and the resident trainer went to a certain BD conference last year regarding rollkur and came back intent on applying all she'd learned.

It confused me insanely that i was being told we were aiming for lightness and self carriage and yet in 99% of my lessons it was "be stronger", "dont let him do that", "STRONGER with the hands" "hit him, kick him" and so it went on.

Id had dressage lessons in my teens from a classical trainer so i found all this quite hmmm shocking i guess would be the best way to describe it. Very little was ever mentioned in ANY lessons about ensuring they were working over their backs or their hind quarters were engaged.. it was all about what the head was doing.

Possibly the worse part of all this, for me, was that this said group of trainers are very heavily involved with the BYRDs training and numerous young riders.

Like you, ive been told over and over that horses wont work that way naturally and will always take the easiest route.

Its confusing because the fact remains, these trainers are all competing and winning at grand prix. The YRs they train are winning in europe and yet to watch what goes on behing the scenes takes the sparkle or art away from dressage and strips it down to what its become.

I, like you, decided it wasnt a route i could go down. I got out of lessons feeling like id had a war with my horse and frequently won.. but not because he WANTED to give in, but because the alternative was downright painful. Watching other liveries ride.. it was clear they werent having fun. Many had become over horsed from chasing the dream of riding in top hat and tails. The entire focus was on what the head was doing and the frustration that people were feeling when it didnt come together destroyed any fun there was in the discipline.

The trainers were riding many of the horses multiple times a week, usually ridden overly deep and round to ensure that when their more novice riders wanted to comepete at the weekend, those horses would go out and win.

For me... the reality of being on such a high profile yard was scarey and quite mortifying. I stopped having lessons and went up at times when i knew no one would be around to ride. I contacted a number of classical trainers, probably the most well known being Sylvia Loch, basically pleading for advice on what to do next (incidently, she was lovely enough to contact me soon after and gave me the most wonderful advice. My discussion with her has changed my outlook on horses forever).

For me it was ironic that dressage was meant to be about beauty and art and the companionship between horse and rider and in reality? These days, its often no where near this
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My advice? you have to establish for yourself what route you want to take. No doubt these people could have you winning at dressage... rollkured horses are doing very well in dressage... you can sit and watch videos of winning GP classes where the horses look tight, uncomfortable and are often hollow in their backs. Personally, i couldnt do it, i love my horse bitterly and i couldnt get on him everyday and do what i was being told.

Perhaps seek out another trainer and just take some lessons with them. Id thoroughly recommend trying to take some classical lessons... if not on your horse (which is probably awkward if you're on a dressage yard), then go somewhere with a school master you can use. Dressage CAN be about lightness and beauty and minimal aids and "dancing", but the road there is long and often deemed too out of date, impractical and lengthy for the competition world where results are all that matter and getting to GP with an 8 year old is the main goal.
 
Thank you for your reply - this sums up the yard I am at quite beautifully! Especially the involvement with the BYRDs - I bet we would both mention the same names of trainers! And I too often come out of a lesson thinking 'yes we finally got we wanted but the muscles in my arms ache and my horse is dripping' And also I have noticed that as you say these people actually do really well. People at my yard compete up to advanced medium sucessfully - we are led to belive in an ideal world that horse trained like this will be marked down in the ring but its not true. And this is why I have started to question my gut feeling.

Reading your post has encouraged me that I am not unrealistic to expect this and I have drafted many an email to Sylvia/classical riding team and then deleted it thinking I am being a pansy!!

What do you do for lessons now if you don't mind saying? Feel free to PM. Thank you for your post - it summed up exactly what I have experienced and feel.
 
I had a few with Sylvia Loch while I was still in the UK. Also with a wonderful trainer based just outside of sheffield called Janean... she is the owner of Cloughfields livery yard (although she has a manager in running the place and she now lives at her own seperate yard).

I was due to have some with Heather Moffett just before the decision to move to Denmark was made, but they obviously got cancelled due to our imminent move.

If you're interested in at least considering the classical methods, i'd recommend a few things.

Firstly, you can join the classical riding club. This was founded and is still run by Sylvia Loch and the website can be found at:-

www.classicalriding.co.uk.

Here, in addition to online advice, you can also find a list of accredited trainers world wide. I think its £15.00 a year to join or something but being able to get your hands on the trainers list is worth that. (For what its worth, Sylvia makes NOTHING out of this society. The membership fee purely pays for the secretary of the club who does all the dull admin).

Id encourage you to get your hands on a few books and / or DVDs to get a feel for the philosophy behind the classical approach.

An absolutly fabulous book to start with can be found here:-

http://enlightenedequitation.com/shop/erol.html

and is Anja Beran's "In Deference". I'd strongly urge anyone interested in classical methods to buy this (i know its expensive) but she's incredibly good at explaining exactly what you do and why at every stage of training.

Enlightened equitation is run by Heather Moffett. She teaches along slightly different lines to Slyvia Loch although is still very classical based. She also does weekend clinics at her centre down south and while I havent been, having spoken to heather several times regarding various issues, I'd imagine they're fabulous. She's also really really helpful and will recommend teachers in your area. (I know for a fact theres a couple knocking around the Yorkshire area who maybe able to help you)

Id thoroughly recommend trying to take a lesson somewhere where you can sit on a fully trained highschool horse. Try checking out:-

http://www.carregdressage.co.uk/training.htm

Georges Dewez has an excellent reputation and was fortunate enough to train with the Maestro Nuno Oliveira. They can offer short breaks, training for your horse only and i *think* lessons on school masters. They're a bit out of the way but as i said, he has an amazing reputation in the classical circles.

All in all, there IS a lot of help out there if its a road you wish to go down. Its often path ignored since many of the incredible classical riders have shunned competitive riding and so they dont receive the "fame" that the more modern trained riders do.

You sound as completly disillusioned as i did and i think this might just put things into perspective somewhat for you
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People cant really imagine what its like to be on some of these yards until they've experienced it first hand. It sounds like a complete dream to be liveried and trained with a GP rider but its quite frightening when you see the methods behind the results these days.

As for me... well im still having lessons in denmark (just started again after the stress of the move... we emigrated in april and i brought my boy with me). We're intending on buying our own land and building a house and small yard and then im hoping to do some small scale teaching.

Hope you get things sorted and find something that works for you. Just dont be bullied into things if it feels wrong for you and don't let people convince you that you're "soft" just because you want to work with your horse rather than just battle to make him submit.

Classical training always has the horses' best interests at the centre of its philosophies and the idea is that the horse knows how to be a horse.. we as riders, have to learn how to be effective (sometimes influential) but respectful passengers.

Feel free to pm me if i can help more at all!
 
Very well put Tierra, I know of a couple of well known riders in the South East whose methods are truly awful, I promised myself never to do that to my horse which is probably why he is under-ridden and has big opinions on things.

There is a Trust called Training Teachers of Tomorrow (The TTT trust) they cover all disciplines but the dressage trainers are very much along the lines described by Tierra, one of whom rides my horse as I won't let anyone else on him. Silly I know, but having seen some of these young riders and the timescales and tactics they use to achieve things quickly it makes me so sad.

I am at a very basic stage with my horse but I went to watch some Medium Advanced and advanced dressage classes a few months ago, none of the horses looked like they enjoyed it, they all had the most awful chunky fixed necks (clearly tight draw reins had been involved!) and the riders all had spurs and double bridles. None rode classically through their seat. I was really shocked, it made me feel as though I was an adequate rider, which is something I have never felt and I just wanted to rescue all of the horses and take them home, especially the one that got such a massive boot in the ribcage for spookng that the rider was pulled over by the judge!!!

We need more people to questions what they are doing and if enough people like Melle start to feel uncomfortable with these harsh unfair methods that is a good start. Think this has been a really good topic to discuss and I feel heartened that so many people clearly seem to know the right way to bring on a horse
 
You're 100% correct in what you say. I think a lot of people find dressage very odd these days. You read that its meant to be one way.. and the reality is that its very much the opposite.

The problem is, so many of (for example), the real classical gurus out there have become completly disillusioned with modern techniques and being accused of being "too soft" or "old fashioned" and so on, that the information on alternative measures can be hard to find i think!

Its a complete misconception that classical dressage is about being too soft and letting the horse get away with murder; its not, but its about training with complete focus on the animals well being.

The classical circles tend to be quite close knit. Everyone knows each other and it can seem very "closed" to outsiders. This is abolutly not the case and ive been continuously overwhelmed by the help ive received from people who dont know me and have no obligations to help me. However, they're passionate about horses and passionate about the way they should be treated; with compassion and respect

I preech far more than i should on these forums, purely because i hope to get the message over to anyone who feels this way that there are different methodologies out there. It doesnt all need to be about how hard you can kick, how strong you can pull or how many gadgets you can ram on your horse.
 
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