Dressage Report and Horrid Judge

FMM

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My son (who is just 10) and his pony who we have had for two months, did their second ever dressage test at the weekend.

The pony has never done dressage before and was previously mainly ridden by adults with children being put on board just before the class (he is a show pony by trade!)

He did the intro test which was OK - he rode nicely and Harry went obediently. Then went into the Prelim - I was reading the test for him as my son only rides twice a month due to living 150 mile round trip from the pony and he had only ridden through the test once before. In hindsight, probably a big ask, but we had practiced it on the carpet at home, so he knew where he was going and the movements.

Did all the trot work pretty well (for 5s and 6s from a pretty hard marking judge), including half 10m circles and return to the track etc. Unfortunatley, the pony broke in his 20m circle at E (or B - I forget which!) canter and my son was muddled and rather than continuing his 20m circle, he ended up at A. I asked the judge to ring the bell to signal error of course, so I could get my son back to me and we could ride the movement again. However,the judge did NOT ring the bell. So then I had to try to work out where to start from, with my poor son still trying to remember where the circle was. He knew there was a change of rein, so when I said H, he made a beeline for it, rather than going around the arena. Again, I asked for the bell to be rung, and again nothing.

So I STILL could not stop the pony and get them to pick up a point where we both knew what we were doing. My son was getting progressively more flustered (but still determined to get his change of rein, when the judge finally rang the bell and said eliminated!!!!

My poor son (as I said, 10 years old on his second ever dressage test) had to do the walk of shame with quite a few people watching. He was desperately upset as he hates failing at anything. I asked the judge if he could just finish the test as he was a novice on his second test, and she replied that he was clearly very confused and there was no point.

Now, if she had RUNG THE DAMN BELL so that I could have got him back to me when I had ASKED her to, there would not have been a problem. But she let us muddle along, then rang the bell to eliminate him WITHOUT ringing the bell for the previous two mistakes. So as far as I am concerned, she was wrong.

And if she HAD done as I had asked, then my son would have been able to pick the test up and could have continued.

Some children would give up - mine is a stroppy individual and has just decided that he will work harder at getting it right next time.

Oh - and she also referred to him as a "she" - which mortified him.

And just to show it was not all bad and he DOES know what he is doing (he was 4th in his first test) here is a very bad pic!

harrydressagenov1.jpg


My son has only really learnt to canter properly in the past few months, so working in by himself, and riding in a very spooky indoor arena on his pony, is really quite a big ask.

I am still appalled that an unaffiliated show would treat a small novice child in this way - who the hell does she think she is and how dare she belittle ANYONE, let alone MY child the way she did. The more I think about this, the crosser I am getting. I have done a fair amount of show judging over the years, and I like to think that with the obviously novice combinations I am nothing but helpful (well, the same goes for the more experienced ones to be honest!) and I would go out of my way to ensure that no one ever has to leave the ring. I hate even not giving them a rosette, let alone eliminating someone.

Rant over (for the moment). Or am I wrong and is it acceptable for a judge to refuse to ring the bell for an error of course so that they can explain where the error was made? I thought I had read the rules inside out (my concern with my son is him leaving the arena by mistake, not getting the test wrong, so I had not factored those rules in!)
 

TGM

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Sounds like a very mean judge indeed. When I have been writing for judges they have always rung the bell when a competitor has lost their way and then got out and explained what the next movement should be, or alternatively called the rider over to explain. You'd think that most judges would want to encourage a young boy in dressage, not put them off!

Was it a listed judge?
 

siennamum

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I have never known of a judge eliminate anyone for going wrong - although I am aware that they can. I have always experienced judges calling out to rider where to start again, so as to lose the least marks, and they always ring the bell to indicate it has gone wrong. That is really disgraceful, I hope you complain to the organisers.
 

PucciNPoni

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I'm newish to dressage (about 5 years or so) and certainly have never judged, but I'd find that appalling too. I thought most unaff judges would certainly want to help in any way possible?

When I first got my boy, he was an ex-show horse and not used to boards. I took him to a little local show nearby (hacking distance) and he was unfit, out of shape and a bit rusty from standing in a field for 18 months. However, in my first test he kept spooking at the boards and when I put my leg on him to move him closer to the boards he bucked and we went off course. So I stopped, moved up to the car, spoke to the judge and asked to be excused. She said I should just carry on. We eliminated ourselves but she carried on scoring on an HC basis and that was fine. I was glad she made me do it but I was rather embarassed :eek: .
 

FMM

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I have never known of a judge eliminate anyone for going wrong - although I am aware that they can. I have always experienced judges calling out to rider where to start again, so as to lose the least marks, and they always ring the bell to indicate it has gone wrong. That is really disgraceful, I hope you complain to the organisers.

I did complain - at £15 a class I was pretty cross about that as well!! Their response "we have never had a complaint before ..."

This was the judge that wrote at the end of another competitor's test "your horse is lame" - mostly they would put "a few unlevel strides" - and said loudly when another girl was leaving the arena so everyone could hear "I wish she would stop kicking her horse".

So there were definitely several non happy people in the vicinity. But I think I probably won the prize for being the crossest ...
 

ecrozier

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That's awful! Was that the only respOnse you got from the centre? Id write to them tbh and complain and ask for a proper response and the judges name so you can avoid.
 

siennamum

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I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I think the judge technically has to sound the horn or whatever, otherwise how are they able to judge a test which has gone drastically wrong due to a single mistake.

Gorgeous pony by the way and how nice it is now doing lots of interesting things. I must get you to advise me what showing classes I can do with my boy at some point.
 

FMM

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I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I think the judge technically has to sound the horn or whatever, otherwise how are they able to judge a test which has gone drastically wrong due to a single mistake.

Gorgeous pony by the way and how nice it is now doing lots of interesting things. I must get you to advise me what showing classes I can do with my boy at some point.

That is what I thought and had already briefed him on what to do if the bell was rung.
Thank you for your kind comment about Harry - we are very lucky to have found him. They have just started learning to jump (both of them!) and doing gymkhana games - a very different career from the showing one he is used to!

Feel free to ask about the showing side of things - at least I vaguely understand what is going on there!!
 

ihatework

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I do sympathise with you, honestly!

My first point to make would be that everyone who pays their £15 has the right to fair and consistent judging. It makes not jot as to how old that person is, how experienced the horse/pony is, how much practice they have had etc.

The competition you entered is run under BD rules and is actually run alongside an affiliated competition. The judge is a listed judge.

In terms of ringing the bell the rules are a little vague and open to interpretation. It is very difficult to comment given not actually seeing what happened. My guess is the bell should have been rung, the judge should have bought your son back to where he went wrong, and you would have started to recall the movement. However there are variuos clauses for 'not interupting the flow etc.' so it is difficult to comment fully.

But even so, there has to be some give and take and consideration taken into the feelings of a 10yo. What would it have really cost the judge to stop the test, give your son a smile and say 'go and speak to Mum', let you put him back on track and complete the test? Nothing. To be fair to other competitors she could have switched his entry to HC and had a quiet and discreet word with you after to explain why.
 

kerilli

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that does sound very harsh for unaff, with a child riding. i'd have been very cross too. perhaps you put her back up by asking for her to ring the bell, i don't know. hopefully she's The Nastiest Judge around and you'll never have such a bad experience again! good on your son for being more determined because of this!
 

FMM

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Thanks Kerilli - I did say "please" when I asked her to ring the bell when it became clear that she wasn't going to - I was polite - honestly!

Ihatework - I don't think there was any affiliated competitors that day as I heard the judge asking the organiser if it was affiliated and I am fairly sure the answer was not - but I don't even expect special treatment for my son - it was more about the fact that she did not ring her bell when the first error (or second error) took place - just went straight to elimination.

Thank you camilla4 - he will appreciate your kind words!

Bearing in mind he has to go to his father and play football every other weekend which limits me a huge amount in finding nice low key competitions to take him to, you can bet your bottom dollar that the next competition I can find for him to have a go at she will be the judge. Oh well - I suppose that's life!! In showing, if I feel hard done by I just smile and know it can only get better - but this was completely different!
 

Lolo

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Definitely try and find some PC stuff. My sister, when she was little (bit littler than your son, but also lived about a minute away from her pony, and had no cares for things like school!), had a pony who's main aim in life was to see her sitting on the floor. Normal dressage tests obviously never quite went to plan, but our PC ran days where you'd do your test and get it marked, then have a mini lesson, then have lunch and then have another bash at a test. She used to get lovely comments and marks because PC judges tend to get that they have very small people who need encouragement. And at the end of the day they got rosettes too, which made Al up!

Pony is lovely, and your son sits so nicely. Next time out, he can really show her!
 

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Presumably she did definitely hear you ask her to ring the bell? I am just checking, as sometimes if I do a bit of local unaff judging, I can't really hear a thing if I am in the car with the windows up, and no matter how well I know the test being ridden in front of me, I never ring the bell the second someone appears to have gone wrong, in case I have got it wrong!

This is partly because I have been beeped for going wrong when I hadn't, and it did spoil the test for me, and another friend was beeped years ago also when she hadn't gone wrong, and she rather rudely had a go at the judge - shocking!

So I am very cautious if someone has a problem - I tend to sit there, quickly looking down to check my sheet, oblivious to anyone outside, then I check with my writer (if they are on the ball, as some are not!), then I quickly look up again to see where the rider is now - praying they are back on track and have sorted themselves out - and only then do I beep if it is blatantly obvious that they haven't realised they have gone wrong.

But then I get out and smile - big cheesy smile with friendly wave, always helpful for youngsters - and suggest a point the rider might like to restart from. I have never eliminated anyone, and do agree that was unnecessarily mean :(
 

FMM

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Presumably she did definitely hear you ask her to ring the bell? I am just checking, as sometimes if I do a bit of local unaff judging, I can't really hear a thing if I am in the car with the windows up, and no matter how well I know the test being ridden in front of me, I never ring the bell the second someone appears to have gone wrong, in case I have got it wrong!

This is partly because I have been beeped for going wrong when I hadn't, and it did spoil the test for me, and another friend was beeped years ago also when she hadn't gone wrong, and she rather rudely had a go at the judge - shocking!

So I am very cautious if someone has a problem - I tend to sit there, quickly looking down to check my sheet, oblivious to anyone outside, then I check with my writer (if they are on the ball, as some are not!), then I quickly look up again to see where the rider is now - praying they are back on track and have sorted themselves out - and only then do I beep if it is blatantly obvious that they haven't realised they have gone wrong.

But then I get out and smile - big cheesy smile with friendly wave, always helpful for youngsters - and suggest a point the rider might like to restart from. I have never eliminated anyone, and do agree that was unnecessarily mean :(

She could definitely hear me, as she was in an open wooden judge's box and when I was calling the intro test, she had asked me halfway through the test to move further away as her writer could hear me but not the judge!
 

ihatework

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I completely agree with your sentiments FMM, from your description of events it was dealt with very badly.

However I can assure you it was run alongside BD (different judges for aff/non-aff sections), check the website if you don't believe me!

Definitely try some PC dressage as they are much more child friendly in general
 

FMM

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Definitely try and find some PC stuff. My sister, when she was little (bit littler than your son, but also lived about a minute away from her pony, and had no cares for things like school!), had a pony who's main aim in life was to see her sitting on the floor. Normal dressage tests obviously never quite went to plan, but our PC ran days where you'd do your test and get it marked, then have a mini lesson, then have lunch and then have another bash at a test. She used to get lovely comments and marks because PC judges tend to get that they have very small people who need encouragement. And at the end of the day they got rosettes too, which made Al up!

Pony is lovely, and your son sits so nicely. Next time out, he can really show her!


Thank you! I am currently in the middle trying to sell my current house (about 5 minutes from Keysoe if anyone is interested in a three bedroom/two bathroom cottage!) and moving down to where the rest of the family is in Berkshire - which means that he can join the pony club and have fun with his pony with kids of his own age.
 

amage

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How horrible of that judge and even more so when she was dealing with a child. I remember yrs ago at my first dressage on with my first pony getting in a horrible muddle. Judge sounded the horn and called me up. As I approached the car crying with frustration at messing up she got out of car and told me she was sending me back to the practice arena so I calmed down and as the next one in was last to go I was to come back to her then! So I very tentatively went back in and she proceeded to get out of the car along with her writer and read me through the test while marking me HC. It was the best confidence boost i could have gotten and I have often thought that she was the epitome of the perfect judge for children. Your wee fella has a great seat and a lovely pony....onwards & upwards!!
 

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What a b****. We have all been there when doing dressage, forget where you are going and panic.
Do they have to sound the bell if you go wrong? I was doing a novice test on a 4 year old, and on the marks sheet I had an error of course, marks deducted, but I swear down I never went wrong, and it didn't say on the sheet were I had gone wrong in any of the comments and no bell was rung, AND to top it all, if the prelim test before the judge had pulled me up for an errror of course. I said I hadn't gone wrong, the writer said I hadn't gone wrong, then she checked the test and admitted I hadn't gone wrong. I smiled and said it was ok, but I was on a green 4 year old, so stopping and having argument with the judge half way through a test didn't do him any good! You would think that after that, even if I had gone wrong in the next test she wouldn't of said anything!!
 

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I know absolutely nothing about dressage, but it seems a very mean way to treat a kid, surely they should be encouraging the next generation.

The only point to this post is to say I cant believe how much he has grown up since I last saw a pic. Doesn't seem 2 minutes since you were posting pics of his first pony on the SR.

Congratulations on getting him interested in horses and competing, looking at the pic I expect we will be seeing a lot more of him in the future.
 

FMM

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Just checked the rules

Errors of Course
When a competitor makes an ‘error of course’ (takes the wrong turn, omits a movement etc.) the Judge at C warns him, by sounding the bell. The Judge shows him, if necessary, the point at which he must take up the test again and the next movement to be executed, then leaves him to continue by himself.

Goes on to say

88. Penalties for errors of course
Every ‘error of the course’, whether the bell is sounded or not, must be penalised:
– the first time by 2 points
– the second time by 4 points
– the third time the competitor is eliminated, although he may continue his performance to the end, the marks being awarded in the ordinary way.

So yes - the judge did NOT have to ring the bell (despite the only reason for the bell not being rung would be if it was affecting the fluency of the test, which it obviously was not in this particular test) - and the rider should be allowed to finish the test.

So (and I would not have thought this were possible) I am ever MORE angry!!!
 

siennamum

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I think the fluency thing has more to do with a minor error, such as not giving and retaking, where the test still follows it's proper course. I would have thought it was pretty mandatory for the judge to ring the bell in order to get the rider back on track. I too would be steaming tbh.
 

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To me a minor error so not warranting bell ringing would be a transition/circle a few strides early/late.

The judge sounds terribly unfair to say the least and I would be appealing your complaint stating the rules re continuing test etc.

Well done to your son though as he looks a cracking little rider :)
 

Wiz

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Well done for the intro result and for your son wanting to stick at it and improve.
Judge should def have rung the bell because as a reader it is not up to you to tell someone if they go wrong - you are only supposed to read what is written on the test sheet. Definitely never come across someone being elim without the first 2 stops and when I've been writing if they have to stop a second time will do their level best to make sure the rider knows the rest of the test so they don't get to the elim point.
I think I recognise the venue and am local and invovled in running our RC dressage and can offer friendly judges and encouraging atmosphere to what ever age. Our show in Dec includes the option to have some fun with fancy dress and mince pies on offer :)
 

FMM

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Well done for the intro result and for your son wanting to stick at it and improve.
Judge should def have rung the bell because as a reader it is not up to you to tell someone if they go wrong - you are only supposed to read what is written on the test sheet. Definitely never come across someone being elim without the first 2 stops and when I've been writing if they have to stop a second time will do their level best to make sure the rider knows the rest of the test so they don't get to the elim point.
I think I recognise the venue and am local and invovled in running our RC dressage and can offer friendly judges and encouraging atmosphere to what ever age. Our show in Dec includes the option to have some fun with fancy dress and mince pies on offer :)

Thank you Wiz - what date is your dressage? I have found one near to us on 18th December at a "festive" sounding centre - is that where you are?
 

Wiz

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18th Dec at Blewbury - I'll be there on a wibbly 4 yr old in the prelims And there will usually be quite a few either novice horses or riders in the first classes Not sure who we've got lined up to judge yet but we try our best to keep it very encouraging :)
 

FMM

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Blewbury!!! That was the name of the place that the little girl riding a grey pony told us about - she had won the intro there a few weeks ago. I kept saying Blue Barn (which I know is in Kent) - I am sooooo dim sometimes.

I will have a look at the schedule!
 
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