Dressage saddle woes - Welsh D - any suggestions?

joolie

joolie

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For the past 18 months I've had my 7 yo Welsh D in an Isabel Werth dressage saddle (yeah Wintec....I know)! This year now we're working at novice I've had no end of trouble with it not fitting properly a couple of months after being adjusted (by a 'proper' saddler). Disastrous lesson tonight with bucking, head chucking, horse tight behind - said saddle sitting drastically to one side, mare has sore back and owner unhappy!

I sadly don't have a limitless budget and so am going down the second hand route (have a saddler locally who stocks a good range generally but nothing suitable atm). Has anyone any suggestions as to what I could look out for as good saddles for wide flat backed horses? Ideal Jessica? T8 cob dressage? Her jump saddle is a T8 and this seems to be much better on her. I do like a nice deep seat though and lots of support. TIA :)
 
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I would try another saddle, but often with horses who have saddles sit on one side have impending problems in a hock or similar. Saddle research Trust did a load of research on that. So, if it happened again with a new saddle I would bear that in mind.
 
Red-1 said:
I would try another saddle, but often with horses who have saddles sit on one side have impending problems in a hock or similar. Saddle research Trust did a load of research on that. So, if it happened again with a new saddle I would bear that in mind.
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Oh god - that's the last thing I'd want! Her jump saddle (Thorowgood) fits fine still, checked and adjusted at the same time as the Wintec. We popped this on her during the lesson and she was instantly a lot freer moving and comfortable thank god. Saddles are a right headache :(
 
I think expecting both a wintec and a thorogood to fit the same horse is a bit much! and a wintec on a welsh is unlikely too.

I just picked up an ideal jessica for my lad (17" MW in brown woop!) for £320 and it hasn't got a mark on it. Has just gone to my saddler to sort the flocking out (someone has done an interesting job at some point!). I know a lot of welshies in ideals and bought this one on the basis that a friend has an ideal VSD and a jessica on her welshie mare and I already had a VSD as my GP. Just sent a template to the seller which she took a photo of with the saddle.

I've also ridden in a jessica a fair bit before and liked it, there are plenty about which keeps prices reasonable.
 
ester said:
I think expecting both a wintec and a thorogood to fit the same horse is a bit much! and a wintec on a welsh is unlikely too.
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I agree - saddler seemed happy - time to find a new saddler I think! It seems to be fine for a bit and then goes totally out. My mare doesn't suffer fools gladly and will soon let me know she's not happy. I have seen a couple of people using the Isabel on Welsh D's so thought it was a good option seeing her through from a 5yo with it being adjustable (sadly I love it for me too). Have seen the ideal Jessica being championed so defo one to try then - thank you!
 
No saddler should not have been happy!

I really would see if you could get hold of one, it is pain getting from online etc but so long as you don't pay more than you know what you can sell it for I think you can do ok. The friend I talked about is also a member on here, Miss_C :).
 
ester said:
No saddler should not have been happy!

I really would see if you could get hold of one, it is pain getting from online etc but so long as you don't pay more than you know what you can sell it for I think you can do ok. The friend I talked about is also a member on here, Miss_C :).
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Happy to buy and sell on to find the right one - losing a few pennies is fine just don't have £1200+ sadly for something m2m (or to afford to lose the depreciation that happens with one). Thanks :)
 
Unfotunately our saddles would be way over budget but thanks for the rec, and we don't make enough of them for them to be easily available second hand (not sure I've ever seen one!). The Jessica isn't IMO flat enough in the tree to fit the way I fit, but a few people have them for Welsh Ds and other native types. You just need a really good fitter.
 
I use a solution treeless for dressage, perfect as it changes shape with her, no shoulder impediment , she and I love it.
 
Red-1 said:
I would try another saddle, but often with horses who have saddles sit on one side have impending problems in a hock or similar. Saddle research Trust did a load of research on that. So, if it happened again with a new saddle I would bear that in mind.
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Its not always the saddle beware this may be a problem of the rider being one sided, I unfortunately have this problem and it is an incredible amount of work to stop doing this.

I have an Ideal Jessica on mine, she is a flat backed but with some wither native type pony, depending on the actual conformation of her back it may suit as D's dont all have the same build. My other saddle is a Native pony saddle ex demo which saved a lot of money so may be worth checking, also places like preloved they seem to come up fairly often.
 
Yup Frank does have wither too.
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fornema said:
Its not always the saddle beware this may be a problem of the rider being one sided, I unfortunately have this problem and it is an incredible amount of work to stop doing this.
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I do wonder if this is the case sometimes....it's not been picked up on by my instructor but I am aware it may be me causing the issue. I'll see if I can find a shot of her to post up to give a rough idea of her conformation.
 
Second hand WOW suits our flat ish backed, well sprung (wide), not much withered chap. (He isn't welshy, but is Arab/new forest x bigger spotted horse) Was still fairly expensive for 2nd hand, but still well under a new saddle. It's very adjustable.

Find a local rep and ask them if they have anything second hand?
 
sbloom said:
Unfotunately our saddles would be way over budget but thanks for the rec, and we don't make enough of them for them to be easily available second hand (not sure I've ever seen one!). The Jessica isn't IMO flat enough in the tree to fit the way I fit, but a few people have them for Welsh Ds and other native types. You just need a really good fitter.
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Just out of interest - what saddles do you fit? May have to blow budget and go m2m if no luck 2nd hand.....
 




Back shot and the Isabel in action last month pre any noticable issues....

WOW saddles are something I know very little about so I'll do some research now! :)
 
She does look flatter than Frank tbh (so I definitely can't see the wintec fitting) Cute dressage pic though :).

As an option if the thorowgood tree fits her poss a thorowgood or kent and masters dressage would suit?

I hope sbloom won't mind she works for the andrea hicks (native pony saddles) http://www.ahsaddles.com/

I think as a lot of things the quality of the fit really does depend on the fitter/saddler too. I seem to have found one that just has an eye/memory for a back/can predict what happens when the horse moves and is also a great teacher going through why etc. He declared the tree on the jessica great for Frank, the flocking job as pretty shocking (one one side there was more flocking in the middle so the panel would have been doing the reverse of bridging.

I think you have a few options, all of which would likely be better than the wintec :D
 
That saddle looks too narrow in the gullet; probably to clamp it down and stop lifting at the back because the tree isn't flat enough. She is built downhill but she should definitely be able to off the wither and bring her legs under her more. Also looks like muscle wastage behind her withers. That's why it is also tipping.

Try an ideal built on a H&C tree. Seat size looks good don't get anything longer as otherwise her group will push the saddle forward. Just beware the IW has very short panels behind compared to some other makes because the seat is super deep.
 
CBAnglo said:
That saddle looks too narrow in the gullet; probably to clamp it down and stop lifting at the back because the tree isn't flat enough. She is built downhill but she should definitely be able to off the wither and bring her legs under her more. Also looks like muscle wastage behind her withers. That's why it is also tipping.

Try an ideal built on a H&C tree. Seat size looks good don't get anything longer as otherwise her group will push the saddle forward. Just beware the IW has very short panels behind compared to some other makes because the seat is super deep.
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Some interesting points here - thank you. The unsaddled pic was from May, just as we experienced our intial issues with the IW. I put my trust in a saddler as I personally am a bit clueless about the less obvious aspects of saddle fitting...I can see if really obviously too narrow, wide, moving etc so really good to get a more clued up perspective. It was lifting at the back a little pre-June and I was half expecting the saddler to say there was nothing that could be done but he adjusted gullet and reflocked so here we are. Perhaps should have trusted my gut feeling!

Ester - thanks for some fellow Welsh D input - surprising to see how much flatter she is than your lad (who's a beaut by the way). I had a K&M S series on her to begin with (it's on their standard tree) but it felt perched and I hated it. The T8 jump seems to cause less headaches and fit better IMO but not sure I'd want to go down the dressage saddle route with a Thorowgood as I find the jump uncomfortable. Hmmm!
 
We've an Anky on our D gelding and a Kent and Masters on the Mare, both saddles are fantastic in there own right, fit like a glove!:) we too had our boy in a wintec, but as we progressed through the levels, and now we're competing at elementary the Anky does the job perfectly! Perhaps just ask a saddler to bring a few different makes down to try?
 
Just to put it out there, as far as I know the IW saddles are built on different trees to normal wintecs. I know a few people with wider horses that wouldn't fit in a normal wintec
 
joolie said:
I do wonder if this is the case sometimes....it's not been picked up on by my instructor but I am aware it may be me causing the issue. I'll see if I can find a shot of her to post up to give a rough idea of her conformation.
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Although picked up by my instructors the saddle fitter explained to the extent of issues it would/could cause with saddles, where are you in the UK as would highly recommend her as very very thorough spending 2.5 hours to reflock and check the balance of the saddles. One side you can't even notice it but on my stronger side its very visible in walk, doesn't help i have joint issues.

Heres a picture of the conformation of mine who wears an 16" Ideal Jessica but bears the pins of Martin Wilkinson also wears a 16.5" AH Harrier Jump.

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Also fits my mums driving pony, who looks to have a little similar conformation to yours:
IMG_2974.jpg
 
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FrankieCob said:
Just to put it out there, as far as I know the IW saddles are built on different trees to normal wintecs. I know a few people with wider horses that wouldn't fit in a normal wintec
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This is why I went with the IW - having owned her from a 5yo I knew she'd be changing shape massively as she built up muscle etc - think I read on here about a few people using them on their D's. Had no problems at all (that I noticed for first year and a bit) - it's been since she turned 7 and we are doing novice work, laterals, mediums and working in a more consistent frame that it seems to be causing some issues!

Fornema I'm based in North Shrops/South Cheshire. Plenty of saddle choice from a saddler if I'm buying new, not so much if second hand. Have a few people to call tomorrow, happy to buy myself and sell on for right price if I can get someone half decent to assess and fit! Ideals seem to be the way forward then to try, just can't see anything atm second hand that's the right size :(
 
Marchogaeth said:
We've an Anky on our D gelding and a Kent and Masters on the Mare, both saddles are fantastic in there own right, fit like a glove!:) we too had our boy in a wintec, but as we progressed through the levels, and now we're competing at elementary the Anky does the job perfectly! Perhaps just ask a saddler to bring a few different makes down to try?
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This is the plan, just finding one with a decent 2nd range seems to be a headache! Had a K&M S series on initially but I hated how it put me and was too perched on madam, felt like I had no contact with her at all. Didn't even know anky did saddles - doh!!
 
Have you considered trying a Heather Moffett Flexee dressage saddle? I've been through a lot of the options listed above with my Arab x Welsh who is wide sprung bit with a wither and nothing really worked until I got one of these. I have the older 'pre gullet' model so I don't have to worry about changing gullet, but it has a leather tree (not treeless) which.moulds to the horse. I used to get bucking, planting, stuffy movement but this all stopped when I changed. My mum's horse (connemara xtb) is the same in his Flexee after bucking in a wintec and a thorowgood. The newer ones look like leather too, if you were worried about that.
 
Orchardbeck said:
Have you considered trying a Heather Moffett Flexee dressage saddle? I've been through a lot of the options listed above with my Arab x Welsh who is wide sprung bit with a wither and nothing really worked until I got one of these. I have the older 'pre gullet' model so I don't have to worry about changing gullet, but it has a leather tree (not treeless) which.moulds to the horse. I used to get bucking, planting, stuffy movement but this all stopped when I changed. My mum's horse (connemara xtb) is the same in his Flexee after bucking in a wintec and a thorowgood. The newer ones look like leather too, if you were worried about that.
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I have looked at these but I find the website a bit rubbish to navigate and thus being tired I kind of gave up reading about them! How supportive are they for the rider? I will have to have another look...may be an option if nothing else seems to suit.

I've got a saddler coming next week and she has a 2nd hand Ideal Jessica with Flair to try so I'll see how we get along with that.
 
I would second the HM Flexee, my horse went up up 2 gullet sizes and now has no gullet as he's too wide for the widest one, and is finally looking as he should, at age 18, after years and years of saddle fitting problems. They are brilliant, and very supportive and comfortable for the rider too, I cannot rate them highly enough.
 
I ride my Welsh D mare in a Tree Free "Exmoor" treeless saddle.

You can trial their saddles, will cost £50 for a week. I've got the Exmoor, and ride my mare in it, then fancied the look of their new GP Prototype - ended up ordering one! They do a dressage version of it too.

Can heartily recommend these people. Johan and Andrea are true experts who take a real pride in their work, and in getting a satisfied client, and their workmanship is second to none. There is a distinct absence of sales pressure too........

IF OP you are deciding to go for a "native pony" saddle; then I would recommend you do your research and make sure it is one of the Andrea Hicks ones and ONLY one of theirs, not anyone elses'; I say this as there is another company in existence who also make these kinds of saddles and I (and others on here) have had a bad experience with them. If you research thoroughly, you will find the information. Or contact "sbloom" on here (or PM me).
 
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