dressage saddles for cobs/round horses!

[mandwhy]

Hey everyone, long time no post, I need a new saddle for my Haflinger and would like to know what you all have on your round cob shaped horses!

I've sold my GP which was a Kent and Masters Cob, which we had fairly consistently in an XW gullet although it was adjustable. It was professionally fitted by a master saddler but was never quite convinced it didn't restrict her shoulder a bit, and also I always felt a bit tipped forwards... Saddles eh!

She is 15hh, can take up to 17.5 generally, is round but not a table top. She has a small low wither, when I first got her she was fat and literally round like a barrel, but she doesn't fluctuate a great deal from XW now.

I just can't be getting on with a GP now, and due to my confidence issues I think the deep seat of a dressage saddle is just what I need at the moment (I sat in some at YHL and was like YES, I NEED THIS!)

If I were to pick an ideal saddle for me it would probably be something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/17-5-ALBI...t=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment&hash=item23340e62a4 obviously not the right size etc and no idea if the tree is suitable.

I have the Wintec/Bates Isabell on my list but don't know if the XW gullet would be wide enough as if it isn't then they don't go wider (I didn't really like any of the other wintecs but loved the isabell).

Before anyone asks I am going to have it checked and reflocked etc but I really doubt I can afford to buy from a saddle fitter as I have budget of up to £400 but would prefer a lot less! So I am quite prepared to buy, try, sell on... I feel I know enough now to try it then decide when it is worth getting the saddler out for the right one.

Anyone have one from the saddle company? I like the idea of lightweight!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Thorowgood make a cob saddle in a dressage model. It's built on the same tree as the Kent & Masters though, so may not suit you. Or, though they're no longer made new, you could look for a second hand Thorowgood cob selecta saddle, then you'd have the shoulder clearance of a dressage saddle for the horse but the option of forward cut saddle flaps with decent sized knee blocks for GP use and jumping.

A saddler once told me the Wintec Isabel is one of the best dressage saddles out there. It's made on a different tree to the other Wintec and Bates saddles. Another told me that Ideal saddles are often a good fit on cobs.

I've got a Calcutta & Sons dressage saddle on a cob and its a great fit. It's an old fahioned model so only has small knee rolls and the stirrup bars are set a little more forward than a lot of dressage saddles, its easier for me to sit on a wide horse due to this.

 

[Walrus]

Native pony and cob saddles (aka native pony saddle company) do dressage saddles as well as show, wh and gp saddles. They are pricy but sometimes post second hand stuff and ex demo stuff on their fb page.

 

[mandwhy]

Hey s&s thanks for the reply! I have not heard of Calcutta and sons really so will look them up! Yes I think the stirrup bars being further back is popular for position recently but I am actually a bit opposite in that I have to put my leg forward by quite a lot more than I think to achieve correct alignment, partly a tipping forward legs going back issue so hopefully a good dressage saddle will help all of this!

Hmm I think I will go ahead with trying the Wintec Isabell, I sat in one at YHL and just thought it would make me feel so much more secure, although you never know til its on a horse!

It would be great as a heavy leather saddle is a bit impractical for trekking to the field in the mud with and going for a hack in the rain, I could do with something light weight and more water resistant! The added bonus is that you can also get the Bates version so I could save up for one of those, and it looks lovely in brown which I much prefer

I have heard of this selecta idea, is it like a budget version of a WOW? It did seem strange to me but I can definitely see the benefit of more shoulder clearance but the functionality to jump in it. I would ideally like a deeper seat than on the TG I have seen but it all depends on availability and cost, there is always compromise with saddles!

 

[mandwhy]

Native pony and cob saddles (aka native pony saddle company) do dressage saddles as well as show, wh and gp saddles. They are pricy but sometimes post second hand stuff and ex demo stuff on their fb page.

Thank you yes that is certainly a brand I keep in mind as they are so nice. I recently spotted one for about 400 on eBay which I think was a WH, I was very tempted as it was the right size in theory and was a bargain considering the cost of them new. Sadly I felt that getting a WH would somewhat negate the purpose of selling my GP which I had bought new and was perfectly nice for showing.

 

[Lgd]

Been there, done it, got the T-shirt!
Hunt for a Barnsby Luxus Dressage saddle. They have a flatter tree and half points so they suit wide, big shouldered horses. Not made now but they do sometimes come up 2nd hand.

I think you will find the wintec may restrict her shoulder as the points are quite long. That was the problem I hit with my little Russian orlov x mare. She has a WOW but even second hand those will be well out of your budget plus you do need a fitter for them.

Other possibles an Ideal Tonishia or a Black Country.
BC do a pre-owned service http://www.blackcountrysaddles.com/pre-owned-saddles-for-sale.php and if you speak to them they will advise you which tree to go for.

 

[mandwhy]

Ah thank you Lgd I didn't know about the black country page, I have read old threads on here before that they might be good for cob shapes but it is hard to know which models etc so that looks handy!

Yes I think it is very difficult to find anything that really doesn't restrict the shoulder, I have of course considered treeless but I just don't think I can deal with the added instability at the moment. I tried a heather moffett vogue off horse too and it was simply amazing, very supportive and nicely made, but wildly out of my price range at the moment. Certainly getting into saddle worth more than horse territory ;-)

 

[LisaS]

I have an Ideal Dressage for my boy. He's an ex Show Cob and is very wide ! I just love it, I even use it now for hacking also !

 

[tabithakat64]

My Welsh cob has an Ideal, also had a Barnsby but cannot remember what model. I can recommend native saddle company as after 16 years of ownership I finally have the perfect fitting saddle for the useless ginger pony.

 

[sodapop]

I had a wintec Isabell for years and loved it but then I was daft enough to buy a horse too wide for it. It was a sad sad day as I loved the security it gave and could hack out comfortably for hours in it. I have successfully transitioned into the wintec wide dressage and still feel secure, I haven't been able to test it out for long hacks due to my horse and I taking it in turns to be injured

 

[JillA]

If you have a horse with big shoulders it might be a good idea to look for a saddle with rear facing points. If you rule out the panel and knee rolls (GP or jumping) what impacts on shoulders most is the points of the tree.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

OP I think I need to PM you as I've just had a most difficult experience with a company which boasts of expertise in fitting these sorts of saddles. It hasn't been mentioned on here - yet!

But I will PM you, as you might just possibly stray onto their website if you look any further, and I wouldn't want to you to have the experience I've just had!!

 

[1Anastasia]

Technically the Wintec Isabell does only go up to xw and I found that their gullets come up a bit on the narrow side. However, I have a mare who is an xxxwide gullet in a Wintec and I use it in a Wintec Isabel. If you are prepared to accept that the warranty won't be honoured if the tree goes then speak to your saddler about it. Mine was done by my saddler who has done the same with a number of other "dressage cobs" saddles and all have worked brilliantly. She told me in advance that inserting the gullet was at my risk which was fine and I have had that arrangement now for 6 years with fabulous results. My mare has a very large shoulder (she's a welsh section D) and having gone through several made to measure options which just didn't wever work for very long she goes like a dream in the Isabell. I have a brown one as I do a bit of showing too and it has the Cair. They only made it with Cair in the brown but if you want flock the black version has that option. This is a photo of my mare in her Isabel. She's 14.1hh and this is a 17.5inch saddle.


And this is how she moves in the saddle....



She's never been able to use her shoulders this freely in any other saddle I've had.

 

[mandwhy]

Ooh more replies, thanks everyone! I must admit I would love it if I could make the Isabell work, or an Albion, I've always been of the opinion that fitting the horse is most important but I really really need more security and something to fit me too!

It's interesting you have a 17.5 on your 14.1 pony 1Anastasia, would you say it comes up short compared to other saddles? I was wondering because a dressage saddle curves 'up' rather than a GP being a bit more flat, whether I might be able to fit an 18inch on my haffy, this would be great for me! 17.5 is usually fine for her, and I would say some 18" could be accommodated but depends.

Also I had had that thought about 'modified' gullet bars, as my girl is pretty much an XW in Kent and Masters gullets, and Wintec told me that their gullet might be slightly narrower, and obviously they would not be able to advics me to use something 'unofficial' but in my eyes I cannot see how a gullet bar being say half a centimetre wider would make any difference.

I know that if you changed it too widely it might warp the shape of the saddle, but we are talking tiny adjustment here.

I really had not considered what an absolute massive pain it can be to fit a saddle to this type of horse! Not to mention if it doesn't fit even slightly you can get slipping and all kinds which adds to the drama! I do use a gel eze pad which is good but this is mainly for when mounting and for added security.

I have been reading that a low head Albion SLK may work, and I have found a well used one for an affordable price at a saddlers (actually less than a second hand Isabell). They do a trial service where you can try it and send it back.

At least I know that a Thorowgood cob will always be a cheap and OK option, so I may get one of those anyway for backup/muddy days while I am faffing between other saddles!

I have been reading about the various points and where they face, oh and hoop trees which actually seem less hoopy than I thought they were, it's just hard to find out what the tree is like on individual saddles!

 

[1Anastasia]

I wouldn't say they come up short, my friend's 16.2hh warm blood is also in the 17.5inch version of this saddle. My mare is deceiving as she may be little in height but takes 6'3" rugs so is long! The other little tip with the wintec gullets is that you can put them in a vice and give them a squeeze to widen them too. It allows you to make an in-between size gullet if you don't want to go a whole size up. The really wide gullets can be hard to come by on their own and I have successfully used a white one which has been made wider. You have to be careful to make sure the gullet bar is sitting absolutely central in the vice before you start but other than that it's easy to sort. They are sprung steel so you have to squash quite a lot to make a small change as it will spring back when released from the vice. Just make sure you draw a pencil outline of the gullet on paper before you start so that you can keep checking your progress! I have my saddler check the saddle thoroughly every six months regardless to ensure that tree is still in perfect condition. The saddle in the picture was actually stolen at the beginning of this year but luckily I managed to find a replacement second hand and having kept my pencil templates my saddler was able to set up the new saddle very quickly for me. There is a new model of the Isabel now and having ridden in both the new and old style I actually prefer the older version. You mention the Thorowgood cob saddle and I had one of these for this mare and it always felt perched and she hated it. The fit for her shape and shoulders was just wrong.

 

[sbloom]

If you can try one easily then fine, but Wintecs commonly do not have the right angled bars for most natives - the bars are upright and close together and that is where I see issues with ANY Wintec that's not working on a wider horse. I have no problem with other brands, which show a variety of different issues when they don't fit and for this reason I can't recommend Wintecs as a good place to start for natives etc. Wintecs always have the same issue. A fellow saddle fitter has written about them:

http://saddlefitter.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/changeable-gullets-details.html

Widening the head plate changes the angle of the points but does not change the shape of the pommel, you've been reading about hoop trees, Wintecs are the opposite. It also cannot change the twist and the bars as I mentioned, and these are all important when fitting wider and flatter horses.

 

[Abbeygale]

If you can try one easily then fine, but Wintecs commonly do not have the right angled bars for most natives - the bars are upright and close together and that is where I see issues with ANY Wintec that's not working on a wider horse. I have no problem with other brands, which show a variety of different issues when they don't fit and for this reason I can't recommend Wintecs as a good place to start for natives etc. Wintecs always have the same issue. A fellow saddle fitter has written about them:

http://saddlefitter.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/changeable-gullets-details.html

Widening the head plate changes the angle of the points but does not change the shape of the pommel, you've been reading about hoop trees, Wintecs are the opposite. It also cannot change the twist and the bars as I mentioned, and these are all important when fitting wider and flatter horses.

Thank you for posting this - I think I have read this before, but things like this are always good for refreshers!

From this blog, and looking at the images, the Thorowgood gullets don't have the same kink issue? I had used a Wintec for several years on my mare, and she went beautifully in them - and then she started getting much fitter and stronger and they no longer fitted! She has been a saddle nightmare ever since!

 

[sbloom]

Horses can broaden and flatten just behind the wither very easily as they progress in their work and this is where the Wintec bars can be an issue. Saddlefitter (author of the blog) fits Thorowgoods and prefers them, I see downsides in both but respect her opinion. I only get to see brands of saddles that I don't fit when they don't work!

 

[Clava]

The Wintec Wide is an excellent saddle and fits my haflingers beautifully, they have a lovely wide gullet and broad supportive panels. The New versions are nothing like the old ones. The kink issues in the bar don't actually make any sense as once the angle is set the curve above it is not actually where the weight is being placed, and the huge popularity and vast numbers of Bates and Wintecs successfully in use rather proves this. I have a Thorowgood dressage saddle, but I would exchange it for a New Wintec Wide dressage saddle in a heart beat!

 

[sbloom]

The kink always, in my experience, leads to more pressure at the top of the panel than lower down at the points, if the tree width is roughly right, no matter if bang on or a little wide or narrow. This is not the same as other saddles. Some horses tolerate this, others do not. And, as I say, I think it IS a design flaw when all horses who have issues with a saddle show the same problems over and over. What I am not saying is that they are terrible and do not fit any horses, I am saying proceed with caution as a first option.

 

[stimpy]

I have small gaited horses who are pretty wide and have big shoulders that need to be free if they are to gait properly. One (my mare) is also very croup high which makes saddle fitting a real challenge...

I use an Ideal Jessica dressage on the gelding, and a Barrie Swain holistic saddle on the mare, both in 17".

The Jessica has a lovely wide open head and a deep rear gusset, for the gelding the deep gusset is crucial otherwise the saddle isn't stable. The Barrie Swain has an owen panel which is perfect for keeping the shoulder free and this is a remarkable saddle, apart from being beautifully made I have now used it on three different horses as their only saddle and it has worked on all of them. Annoyingly it is not good on my gelding as he really needs the deep gusset but his ribs seem to be sprung quite differently from all of my other horses.

My advice would be not to get completely hung up on the width fitting, sure that matters but tree shape and panel/gusset shape are easily as crucial to getting a saddle that fits. I also used to think that I needed a saddle with a narrow twist but whilst the Ideal does have a fairly narrow twist the BS does not and I find the BS the most comfortable saddle I have ever sat on so there is clearly some other factor that determines whether the saddle works for me.

I really don't like Wintecs, in my well-researched-but-still-lay-person's opinion the tree is far too curved for a horse with a flat black. I do have a Saddle Company working hunter that I originally used on my mare but these days I think that is too curved. If I was going for a synthetic I would always go for a Thorowgood cob saddle, they can work well on the table top types.

 

[Terminator]

Hi, I have a Farrington dressage saddle for my cob and its lovely. The Ideal Jessica wasn't right for him, which was my original choice.

 

[TigerTail]

I have a heather moffet vogue on both my horses, one is a very wide friesian and its beautiful on her The made to measure saddle that came with her had been long out grown and caused bulges and lumps everywhere

 

[Cheiro1]

I had an Ideal Tonishia on my Welshy and it fitted her very well. Still have the saddle, hope I can use it again in the future!! (My mare is now retired from competition)

 

[blitznbobs]

If you like the albion.... speak to albion directly they do made to measure.

I love albion dressage saddles - like sitting in an arm chair. if Your horse isn't huge moving then they are lovely and secure.. I think i'm the only person in the world that think that the Ideal Jessica is like a torture device so you could try one of those but I find they tip me forward...

Blitz