Driving bitless

[Equi]

On a group im in someone is asking about bits for driving, and someone is suggesting bitless.

Not something i would consider myself, cause i have ridden bitless and did not like it at all (horse was a bitless horse so it was my issue not hers) but i have never seen anyone driving bitless before.

Anyone?

 

[pennyturner]

Putting a horse to a vehicle without a bit is criminally negligent.

I say this as someone who will happily ride a (known and suitable) horse without saddle or bridle. Driving is different.

 

[rara007]

I've seen it, but would't do it personally. Not at all. It's also not competition legal.

 

[Equi]

Thats good to know!

 

[Equi]

Putting a horse to a vehicle without a bit is criminally negligent.

Have you got a reference for this? It may be of use to some people

 

[pennyturner]

Have you got a reference for this? It may be of use to some people

Never putting to without the bridle on (which is understood to include the bit) is rule 1 of safe driving.

I know some people will argue that their horse goes well bitless, but there is not the same control, and an emergency in harness is far more serious than the worst thing you can imagine under saddle.

 

[Equi]

Never putting to without the bridle on (which is understood to include the bit) is rule 1 of safe driving.

I know some people will argue that their horse goes well bitless, but there is not the same control, and an emergency in harness is far more serious than the worst thing you can imagine under saddle.

It may be an unwritten rule, but i was hoping for an actual legal reference. I would have used that in my work.

 

[pennyturner]

You may have some luck referencing the fatal accident at a fete a couple of years ago where the horse bolted and killed a lady. They were unable to prevent it because the numpty owner had removed the bridle to allow the horse to drink without unhitching the vehicle.

 

[Equi]

Slightly off topic though. Bit less and bridle less are not the same haha

 

[planete]

On a well-trained bitless horse you can disengage the hindquarters to effect an emergency stop if needed. You cannot do that when a horse is kept straight by the shafts. I would very much doubt also whether any insurance would cover a driven bitless horse.

 

[cbmcts]

On a well-trained bitless horse you can disengage the hindquarters to effect an emergency stop if needed. You cannot do that when a horse is kept straight by the shafts. I would very much doubt also whether any insurance would cover a driven bitless horse.

This ^^^^

When driving you only have your voice and the bit to stop a horse. Nothing else and when driving, if it goes wrong, it goes terribly wrong. Anyone who's ever seen, let alone being on a carriage when a driven horse goes realises how dangerous it would be if there was no bit and you had to rely on 'whoa' as your sole means of stopping!

On a ridden horse you can turn them if you think that they might bog off, you can use your legs to move them over, you can take much smaller/narrower emergency exits and if the worst comes to the worst, you will have a loose horse. With a driven horse you can't turn them sharply because of the shafts and if you tried you'd probably overturn the vehicle, be thrown out and then you have a loose horse with vehicle attached - that is never going to end well!

 

[dollyanna]

Insurance and competition issues aside, there are people who drive bitless. There is a lady who comes to our local competitions who drives her donkey bitless, there is someone else whose name I can't remember just now who is an advocate for bitless and barefoot driving who drives bitless (but can't compete), so it is done. I would disagree that if bitless you are solely relying on the voice to stop - you still have reins, it's not like you are just sitting there talking - but not sure if I would do it. In theory it is no different, bits rely on training as much as bitless does, so with the right training it is possible, but as others have said, when driving goes wrong it goes very wrong and I'm not sure I would be comfortable without a bit, but I can't entirely decide if that is just years of having it drummed into me that bits are safe or whether it is just the still ingrained fear of an animal that is so much more powerful than us that a lot of tradition seems to rely on. But then I'm not convinced bitless is always as "kind" or pain-free as it can be made out to be, and with the added leverage of very long reins I don't think I would go down that route for driving. Maybe if I was driving a little one or a donkey I would be tempted to try it too.

 

[Bungo]

Sorry, but if you think a bit gives you control you are sadly mistaken. Your horse whether ridden or driven needs to be appropriately trained to whatever system you choose to adopt. If you look at all of the great horse people of the world, the Mongolians, the Native American Indians,they don't use bits, they don't need to. I ride both my horses with bits and bit less - there is little difference incontrol, in fact with my big mare she responds faster & stops more quickly bit less as she feels no pain. She is a 17hh Pure Irish Draught heavy weight and stops on a sixpence. The secret is the bond between horse & rider, established on the ground, not a bit of metal that inflicts pain.

 

[rara007]

Do the Mongolians and red indians do much driving on the road in the UK? Or even just in company?

As an aside these look pretty bitted?
http://kingdomofhorses.com/american-indian-tack/

 

[Bungo]

Do the Mongolians and red indians do much driving on the road in the UK? Or even just in company?

As an aside these look pretty bitted?
http://kingdomofhorses.com/american-indian-tack/

Sorry Rarrrao007 you have totally missed the point. Any control over 500 kg plus of horse does not rely on half an inch wide piece of metal that inflicts pain on the tongue & mouth bars. There is also no need to be so nasty in your response. I was giving my opinion, which you can choose to disagree with, but don't try to be clever!

 

[be positive]

Sorry Rarrrao007 you have totally missed the point. Any control over 500 kg plus of horse does not rely on half an inch wide piece of metal that inflicts pain on the tongue & mouth bars. There is also no need to be so nasty in your response. I was giving my opinion, which you can choose to disagree with, but don't try to be clever!

Being bitless does not mean the horse can be caused no pain, the pressure on the soft tissues of the nose can be very painful and they are easily damaged, a well educated horse whether ridden in a bit or not has learnt to yield to pressure in a similar way, a bit does not automatically inflict pain any more than a bitless bridle does, it is the hands that are at the end of the rein that are important.

I had a young pony in earlier this year that had been trained in a pressure halter, he came in being ridden for some reason in a standing martingale, I removed it before riding him and he still went along tucking his nose in as if held back by the noseband, it took him weeks to realise he could stretch forward, this was nothing to do with the bit or the rider but his concern that he was restricted by the noseband, it was taken off for a while until he learnt to poke his nose forward and he has become much more confident, so in my view pain on the nose is just as bad, it is just not so obvious.

 

[rara007]

I just don't think riding even a 700kg horse is comparable to driving one (or more) pulling their own body weight (or more). You can one handed stop, or jump off, or use a fence to stop a running away ridden horse, do any of that driving and it becomes lethal to not only you but the public. Of course it's not just the act of putting the bit in it's mouth that gives you the control, it's the training along side it, I just don't think driving bitless is a responsible thing to advise.
Bit hangers/worcester nosebands are becoming increasingly poplar and they take some of the pressure off the mouth as a bit of an alternative? Or of course you can drive with double reins with one set to a cross under/side pull/headcollar.

 

[dollyanna]

Sorry, but if you think a bit gives you control you are sadly mistaken. Your horse whether ridden or driven needs to be appropriately trained to whatever system you choose to adopt. If you look at all of the great horse people of the world, the Mongolians, the Native American Indians,they don't use bits, they don't need to. I ride both my horses with bits and bit less - there is little difference incontrol, in fact with my big mare she responds faster & stops more quickly bit less as she feels no pain. She is a 17hh Pure Irish Draught heavy weight and stops on a sixpence. The secret is the bond between horse & rider, established on the ground, not a bit of metal that inflicts pain.

I absolutely agree that control comes from training, not from a bit, but there is an enormous difference between riding and driving, your post suggests that you are a rider but no indication of also driving - many people don't realise how much difference there can be between the two disciplines. From my point of view, generally driven horses are better trained simply because to be able to have a carriage behind them requires it - it is *possible* (though not advisable) to ride a horse with very little previous training - after all, that's what the Mongolians I've met do! But however well trained an animal is, there is always room for the unexpected, and it would be daft not to have a reliable emergency plan if your training and bond does fail when so much is at stake - again, less of an issue when riding because there is no carriage, a loose horse can look after itself and do little damage but a loose horse, probably blinkered, and carriage is potentially catastrophic.
But it is simply much harder to have the same level of communication driving because there is nowhere near the same level of feel - the only physical connection is through the reins, and those reins are very long levers which can both amplify the force but also water down the finesse of communication which might be an issue with bitless - not sure yet because I haven't done enough bitless to decide for myself. You can't use your body, you can't use direct touch, it is just voice and reins. But in a crisis, when all training fails, I suspect it comes down to pain - causing enough pain to override the flight, and in that instant a bit is probably going to be far more effective. Not a nice way to think of it, but these are my thoughts - still working through them in terms of experience though and I may well change my mind in the future!
And actually the Mongolians I spent time with did indeed use bits, and pretty harsh ones at that - there was very little "bond" with the horses individually.

 

[Equi]

When driving I also use my whip to brush the sides of the horse to limit the amount of use with the bit (so much like legs) but in full flight brushing a whip on their side will not help one bit. I've had one bolt and it was scary and I didn't have too much control as she threw her head up evading the bit and I did stop her with my voice - but I would never feel safe driving bitless.

 

[twiggy2]

Sorry, but if you think a bit gives you control you are sadly mistaken. Your horse whether ridden or driven needs to be appropriately trained to whatever system you choose to adopt. If you look at all of the great horse people of the world, the Mongolians, the Native American Indians,they don't use bits, they don't need to. I ride both my horses with bits and bit less - there is little difference incontrol, in fact with my big mare she responds faster & stops more quickly bit less as she feels no pain. She is a 17hh Pure Irish Draught heavy weight and stops on a sixpence. The secret is the bond between horse & rider, established on the ground, not a bit of metal that inflicts pain.

As a person who rides bitless and bitted I am very much aware when bitted how much of the communication can be form body weight/breathing/even projecting what you want to happen effects how your body sits on the horse non of that enters into the communication between a horse and driver when in a cart, the bond between horse and human is huge when under saddle but the brakes of a bitless horse under saddle come from disengaging the hind quarters and in an emergency from the one rein stop-neither of which can be used to great (if any) effect when the horse is held in line by the shafts of something behind it

 

[ester]

I don't think Rara was trying to be clever, just stating fact! Mongolian ponies are often 'interesting' in their training, and there are plenty of indian ponies wearing tongue ties attached to reins, you are the one that used them as examples of control.

I think the action of some bitless bridles frankly unpleasant and think most, due to the fact they exert pressure over a wider area than a bit are a blunter instrument of communication/torture but as twiggy says without all the other influences you have when you were riding. I think a one rein stop would turn your carriage over pretty swiftly. Driving trials horses are incredibly well voice trained, directionally as well as forwards and back but I do think a bit is likely imperative to ensure everyone's safety. While we are at it we probably need to times 6-700 kg by 4 .

 

[FFAQ]

Not sure if this is still the case, but insurance used to be invalid if you rode bitless, or your horse wasn't shod. I do both so I guess I'm stuffed!!

 

[Equi]

I can't imagine shod would be an issue but I do think some still won't insure bitless.

 

[cbmcts]

Sorry, but if you think a bit gives you control you are sadly mistaken. Your horse whether ridden or driven needs to be appropriately trained to whatever system you choose to adopt. If you look at all of the great horse people of the world, the Mongolians, the Native American Indians,they don't use bits, they don't need to. I ride both my horses with bits and bit less - there is little difference incontrol, in fact with my big mare she responds faster & stops more quickly bit less as she feels no pain. She is a 17hh Pure Irish Draught heavy weight and stops on a sixpence. The secret is the bond between horse & rider, established on the ground, not a bit of metal that inflicts pain.

See, I have no issue with bitless for a ridden horse, it can and does work really well for many.
A driven horse, as pp have said is completely different because you lose the options like turning the horse, disengaging the hindquarters and a one rein stop that are available to a rider and there is also a vehicle that the horse is attached to that needs to be taken into account.

When you drive you are a fair distance from a horse - ok, their training is usually very good and they need to be responsive - but your reins, voice and the whip are your only means of communication. The whip isn't just used to encourage forward movement, more to ask a horse to move over, as you would leg yield a ridden horse, the voice is your main aid but if things are going wrong...so that just leaves the bit. When you take into account that if you are correctly using the coachmans hold you are holding your reins in one hand and only using a wrist swivel to keep your horse straight on the road. You only use your second hand on the reins for corners or an emergency stop. Ideally, nobody wants to slam their horse in the mouth, ridden or driven but if you don't have the option of taking to the verge or pavement if a vehicle comes too close or you can't turn sharply to avoid the car that cuts right in front of you (happens too often!) it would be insanity to take away 33% of your aids. You'd still be socking a horse in the head with a bitless but less effectively.

When you drive a car you wouldn't rely on the handbrake to stop it in an emergency so what would be different with a horse and carriage?

I can't imagine that anybody who has ever seen a horse tank off in harness, having being involved in an accident where it was only luck not judgement that the horse didn't get loose with an overturned carriage behind him would think that driving was the kind of activity that you didn't take all the precautions available. It's so different from riding that you really have to try it to realise.

 

[pennyturner]

I drive barefoot. Not an issue for insurance, and much safer regarding slipping on tarmac IMO.

 

[pennyturner]

I can't imagine that anybody who has ever seen a horse tank off in harness, having being involved in an accident where it was only luck not judgement that the horse didn't get loose with an overturned carriage behind him would think that driving was the kind of activity that you didn't take all the precautions available. It's so different from riding that you really have to try it to realise.

Absolutely. I have been behind a bolting horse in a vehicle. I survived it thanks to the pony's decision to jump a barbed wire fence. Snapped 3 fence posts, but the wire held the vehicle, and the harness held the horse. Thankfully I'm quite good at being a human cannonball, apparently.

I love being able to control and manage a horse with minimum tack. I'm often to be seen riding bareback, and dropping the reins to do trot-canter-trot transitions with just my seat. All my ponies are trained to voice, and I can go miles hardly using a rein contact at all. That doesn't mean that it would be responsible to drive them bitless, even though 99% of the time it'd be fine.

 

[rowan666]

This is a fascinating thread, i have never driven before but had hoped to with my cob in the future.... untill reading this thread! it never occured to me just how much more complicated and dangerous driving was than riding. I often ride bitless so wouldnt in a million years have considered it not to be safe whilst driving. Thanks for posting OP

 

[Equi]

Thankfully I'm quite good at being a human cannonball, apparently.
.

Haha I have also perfected the human cannonball! its essential when breaking to drive

 

[Equi]

This is a fascinating thread, i have never driven before but had hoped to with my cob in the future.... untill reading this thread! it never occured to me just how much more complicated and dangerous driving was than riding. I often ride bitless so wouldnt in a million years have considered it not to be safe whilst driving. Thanks for posting OP

Np but reconsider. I find driving makes the bond between you that much stronger. The horse HAS to listen and work with you or it ends in tears and I really think they realise that. It makes them much more confident too cause they're not relying on your body only your voice and sometimes mouth (I try to use the reins as little as possible)

 

[rara007]

For me half halting a driving horse just off your breath and sitting deep (breathing in, push feet down) is just the best feeling of that bond
And each of my ponies has a voice 'activated' party piece, which they love showing off and gives a me similar glow. Pip loves extended trot and will do that from any dodgy no impulsion over bent trot you can ruin, tell him to extend and down goes his back end and out come his feet. Contrast loves his flying changes- we can do 4 times straight He occasionally misses behind but still, pretty cool party trick Dads old ponies stopped dead from a full gallop off of a voice command of a 'brrrrr'.