dually headcollar shoeing problems

[dyson]

Hi,hope someone can advise?
Dually headcollar re..tricky horse to shoe...rears will not kick or bite simply rears...
Not afraid but rears...also does not tie up..rears so I dont tie him!!Love him to bits!!
Any thoughts please.Thanks.

 

[AmyMay]

What are you asking?

 

[Cinnamontoast]

On a rearer, I'm not sure a equally would be particularly effective. Have you tried him with a bit of Sedalin or in a bridle? How do you get a farrier to do him?'

 

[dyson]

Sorry, did not make myself clear..would a Dually help in controlling the very rapid rearing he is very, very ,good at it,Pure Arab gelding.Lovely in every way but has this block.Perfect otherwise.He has been abused but we have overcome all that...the shoeing problem remains..
Thanks.

 

[AmyMay]

.would a Dually help in controlling the very rapid rearing.

In my experience, no. If anything I find they encourage it.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I suspect that he's been pricked before - or certainly had a bad experience. The more he rears, the more likely it is that he'll be pricked again.

Can he be trimmed without fuss or does he rear whenever you try to handle his hooves?

I think that I would not shoe him for a while (roadwork to self trim the hooves if even trimming is an issue) and then work on the hoof handling/shoeing/trimming issue. As he's had a troubled past, I wouldn't expect a quick fix.

 

[dyson]

Oh why is that?
Farrier very patient.
As for sedation,yes,have done that but farrier says horse will not become confident enough to allow shoeing as will not remember so we will still be at square one!!
Hence the Dually question.
Thanks.

 

[mandwhy]

How is he to handle his feet otherwise? I would do simple repetition of picking them up and holding them, with food if he responds well to that (another person at his head can be helpful, preferably the other side of a fence so they can quietly withdraw if he acts up) then start tapping on his feet and try to emulate the farrier experience!

I have done this with my mare and it worked a treat. She didn't like her feet being handled but it was the metallic clinking sound that she really took offence to, so I just tapped on her shoes routinely with hoofpick and other things while my partner reassured and rewarded her. Now she is fine with the farrier but I do still reward with food throughout the session to keep her occupied and make it a positive experience for her. I wouldn't use a dually on a rearer, a bridle maybe.

 

[Foxhunter49]

You need to teach him to yield to poll pressure!

I will not tolerate a horse that does not tie and he needs to learn to do so.
There are several ways of doing this.
When you lead him get ahead and pull quietly on the rope, if he takes a step forward or lowers his head reward with a release on the rope tension.
When you want to tie him take a long strong line and thread it through something solid, do not tie him but hold the end of the line. When he rears or starts to run back get behind him and use the rope to whack him on the backside and send him forward.

The American way is to tie very high up to something solid. Strong rope and halter, the tie point should be way above head height. This way they cannot get the right tension to pull back . Just let them get on with it and realise that they cannot get their own way.

Once you have sorted out the tying problems and got a bit tougher with the manners department, odds on he will be fine to shoe.

 

[FreddiesGal]

Foxhunter49 - I really don't think whacking the horse is going to solve the problem and quite frankly I think it's a lazy route to take.

OP - My Welsh Cob did exactly the same thing with the farrier. He was okay to stand to be brushed, but with his feet he was an absolute nightmare. He would put all his weight on me, move about, rear up and be a general monkey (Not what I called him at the time!!)

I went up the yard three times a day and worked on it using positive reinforcement.

At first I started just touching the hoof and rewarding. Then I'd lift it for a second and reward. I gradually increased the time until he associated lifting his hoof with a treat. It got to the point where all I had to de was bend down and he would lift his foot.

It's a long old process and that is not the full story at all - he knocked over the farrier many a time and drove me up the bend, but the important thing is calmness and perseverance.

People have many different methods - hitting/shouting, waiting it out, using treats etc, but rewarding for good behaviour worked best for me.

Good luck

ETA - Make lifting up his feet an every day/any time of the day thing. If I got off in the area to set jumps up I would spend a minute lifting his feet. If I put him out in the field I would take 5 minutes to work on it etc. Also, if you have any male friends get them to do it as well so he gets used to strange men around him.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

You don't always need to show a horse who's boss to fix a problem,



OP, I had one the same as yours. Wouldn't tie up and was explosive during shoeing. I had to get the vet to IV sedate each time, however, the farrier was an ex cavalry farrier used to horses being sedated. He found that over a few shoeings you could gradually lessen the sedation needed, which was certainly the case for my horse.
However, in trying to find out the reason for the behaviour, I gave bute the night before and noticed it made a difference. Also found that holding the horse on the yard, rather than tying up lessened the claustrophobic panic.

I then felt, because of the bute trial, there had to be a reasonable objection to shoes and decided to take the shoes off and just trim instead. The problem disappeared immediately.

Horse is still not entirely happy about being tied on the yard. (Fine in a stable though.) If I do tie up, I use a Velcro snap release tie or drop the rope through the loop without knotting to prevent risk of injury.
Just putting the rope through the ring on a wall seems to be enough, as the horse has the freedom to move back if panicky but tends to stand without wandering off.

 

[AmyMay]

DO NOT DO WHAT FOXHUNTER HAS POSTED.

 

[NeverSayNever]

I love the Dually headcolar but it isnt a method of restraint. They have to be introduced properly so the horse understands about yielding to pressure and release. One might help you long term but it wont be a quick fix.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

DO NOT DO WHAT FOXHUNTER HAS POSTED.

 

[Shantara]

DO NOT DO WHAT FOXHUNTER HAS POSTED.

Agree! I would be back at square one with Ned if I'd done that :O

Ned is still quite bad with the farrier, but we're making progress each time. Mine is absolutely wonderful, he's calm and kind, but doesn't let Ned walk all over him.
We tried a twitch, but he really didn't like it. So now we do it with his head in a scoop (obviously in my arms, not on the floor) he gets his dinner and he gets new shoes!

We think Ned must have had a very bad experience with one of his hooves as he's really bad with one and ok with the other.

I've also been picking up his hooves daily and teaching him the command "UP UP!"

 

[CobsGalore]

I had one of these. He was fine for his feet to be picked out, but reared vertically when the farrier did his front feet, but was fine with his back feet.

The farrier got me to tap his shoes with the hoofpick every day when i picked his feet out, gradually getting harder and louder to desensitize him to the feeling/sound of the nails going in.

We tried everything in the meantime; bridle, chifney, etc but it was always the big bucket of yummy feed that helped the most.

It will take time but he will get over it

 

[Cobiau Cymreig Wyllt]

I have one that has to be IV sedated for farriery..over time I've found it's made no difference to his actual tolerance of it....so having just had success with clicker training for something else, am planning this as my next course of action, along the lines of what FreddiesGal suggested. With tying up (as a separate issue) what worked was a long line threaded through a ring bolted to a sturdy post. He was not tied as such as I was holding the other hand of it, but it seemed to help with the bargey panicky behaviour he exhibited previously. Richard Maxwell's 'Train your young horse' explains this and many other things brilliantly and clearly.
Ps I have used a dually successfully with this particular horse, but he was not particularly prone to rearing so couldn't comment on that. I made sure I watched and re watched the 'how to use' DVD and familiarised myself with how it work. I'd also done some pressure and release stuff previously so understood the concept - its not a cure all and can be quite harsh if not used and fitted correctly so it is really worth doing this first.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I've ridden in my dually and used it when he was very very fresh after box rest just as a reminder of manners, I really don't see it being effective for your situation.

 

[3OldPonies]

Could you change farrier to see if he still misbhaves. One of my boys used to be a real pain to shoe, turned out that he just hated the bloke that was doing it. He was a bit rough with him, nothing cruel, just a bit too dominant and scary I think. A change of farrier brought about nothing short of a miracle, he stood good as gold with no probs whatsoever.

 

[Foxhunter49]

A horse that rears when tied or when the farrier is working with them is a dangerous animal. A front foot coming down on an arm is painful enough, on the head it can be fatal.

I am not advocating that a horse that is pulling back is beaten but a whack with the rope on the hind quarters is usually enough to send them forward.
A horse that is pulling back or rearing needs to be sent forward and to do that you need to be behind it.

I do not beat up horses, I train them in a way they can understand. I stand for no nonsense. am consistent and they all trust me for it.

If my methods for remedial training or, any training is so wrong, how come the 2 yr old TBs all stand tied or loose for the farrier to trim them? They also stand tied with no problems.

Methods have changed but horses have the potential to be dangerous - when you are dealing with a lot of horses on a daily basis then there is little time to faff around and coo coo to them. Consistent correction for the minor lack of manners and the big ones rarely occur.

 

[FreddiesGal]

Foxhunter - I think your argument re "If my methods for remedial training or, any training is so wrong, how come the 2 yr old TBs all stand tied or loose for the farrier to trim them?" is erroneous. That's like saying "If smacking my child is so wrong, them why doesn't she wander off in the supermarket?

Also, I don't think smacking a horse should be classed a training, because IMO it's not - it's punishing.

Training is taking the time to teach between right and wrong in a calm manor, not just punishing bad behaviour.

 

[babymare]

Agree freddies.hitting is a quick "fix" and not long lasting. As freddies said long process and get farrier wworking with you. get him there just to play with horse picking feet up etc. time spent will be rewarded

 

[kerrieberry2]

a dually has helped with my rearer but not by me using it to put pressure on him when he starts rearing! but from me using it when doing ground work with him! to make him understand pressure and release, to build a relationship on the ground and to help him trust me, to find things less stressful so that he doesn't feel the need to rear! I'm not saying hes totally cured of the rearing but he is getting much better on the ground! I can lead him now without too much hassle but I have been doing very short walks each day to get him to respect me, the dually and things that are going on around him!

I agree that beating him wont help! you need to know why the horse is doing it? mine does it when he's stressed, if the other horses are calling him, so I've had to take him away for short periods of time, so they get used to get and its less stressful than for all of the horses!

Slapping my horse only made him worse, and resulted in me being boxed in the face and spending the afternoon in hospital making sure nothing was broken! a firm, calm and quiet approach is the only thing that works for my boy! but every horse is different!

 

[Foxhunter49]

Also, I don't think smacking a horse should be classed a training, because IMO it's not - it's punishing.

Training is taking the time to teach between right and wrong in a calm manor, not just punishing bad behaviour.

I agree with you and always teach what I want.
However I am not against using discipline at the right time which is the instant it happens.

so, you have a horse tied up and it suddenly panics, sits back on the end of the rope struggling to get free. What do you do?
Going to the horses head to try and undo the rope will not work, chances are the knot has gone to tight.
I tell you that I go for the back end and will do my best to drive the horse forward. If this take a whack with anything I have to hand then so be it. If I have nothing then I will use both hands - anything to get it to go forward.
If that is wrong then please tell me how to stop that horse pulling back - I am always open to new methods.

 

[FreddiesGal]

I agree with you and always teach what I want.
However I am not against using discipline at the right time which is the instant it happens.

so, you have a horse tied up and it suddenly panics, sits back on the end of the rope struggling to get free. What do you do?
Going to the horses head to try and undo the rope will not work, chances are the knot has gone to tight.
I tell you that I go for the back end and will do my best to drive the horse forward. If this take a whack with anything I have to hand then so be it. If I have nothing then I will use both hands - anything to get it to go forward.
If that is wrong then please tell me how to stop that horse pulling back - I am always open to new methods.

I think that you have missed the point, because we aren't talking about a horse who gets tied up and then goes into a blind panic are we?

We're talking about a horse who rears up for the farrier, and your 'remedy' was to whack it on the rump.

Also, I wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. No horse should ever be in the situation where he can't be released, which is why baller twine has it's place on my yard. It sounds like you are a fan of just tying to solid objects - hence why you have clearly been in that situation before.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

This is a horse that has come from a difficult background.

He has been abused but we have overcome all that...the shoeing problem remains..

When a nail is hammered in, there is a tiny area that it needs to be placed in.

1 = correct (and top photo)
2 = nail bind
3 = nail prick

It is too dangerous IMO to try and shoe a horse that is so violently against having shoes put on. Not only is it dangerous for the Farrier, but it is more likely that the nail placement will be wrong and therefore confirm to the horse that shoes hurt.

I really feel that not shoeing and working on the handling of his hooves is the way forwards. An arab with good hooves (which this horse may or may not not have at the moment due to his background) really shouldn't need shoes.

Are you able to pick his hooves out without him rearing?
Is the Farrier able to trim his hooves safely?

I have no idea what has happened to this horse in the past, but the way forward should involve praise of good behavior and correction (not punishment) of undesirable behavior.

 

[Foxhunter49]

I think that you have missed the point, because we aren't talking about a horse who gets tied up and then goes into a blind panic are we?

We're talking about a horse who rears up for the farrier, and your 'remedy' was to whack it on the rump.

Also, I wouldn't be in that situation in the first place. No horse should ever be in the situation where he can't be released, which is why baller twine has it's place on my yard. It sounds like you are a fan of just tying to solid objects - hence why you have clearly been in that situation before.

No, the horse is not only bad with the farrier it also will not tie. I said to teach it to yield to poll pressure and then to either tie it high where it cannot break away (as they do in the US) or to have a rope threaded through the ring and if it did pull back to drive it forward with a whack on the backside. A whack is not beating it up but giving it a surprise from a direction it was not expecting.

As for tying to bailer twine - that, even the thin stuff does not always break.

A horse I know was severely brain damaged when he pulled back and went down bashing his head.
He was tied to bailer twine and wearing a very worn leather head collar. Both the twine and the head collar should have broken but it didn't - the horse's
head did instead.

Another time I collected a horse for the hunt. This had been tied to sisal bailer twine on a metal gate. The twine never broke, the gate came off the hinges and flipped and the gate bolt went through the horse's forehead and he was dead before he hit the ground.
Tying to bailer twine is never the safe option people think it is, (there was an article about this in the H&H recently)

You will be exceedingly lucky if you are around horses full time if you never see a horse pull back when tied. I would be interested to know what you would do if it happened and nothing was going to break and the knot had pulled tight (even a quick release knot will pull tight with the pressure especially if tied to bailer twine)

 

[stroppymare153]

.....

I am not advocating that a horse that is pulling back is beaten but a whack with the rope on the hind quarters is usually enough to send them forward.
A horse that is pulling back or rearing needs to be sent forward and to do that you need to be behind it.

....

One of mine used to not tie up, would pull back, sometimes rearing, breaking the bale string. Solution - if he pulled back we made him keep going back until WE decided he could stop. Rope waggling (sorry! ) and telling him off very firmly - you could see when the penny dropped and at that point we'd stop and walk forward again with lots of praise and gentle neck stroking. He's fine to tie up now (still a little s*d to shoe but that's another story!)

Could never have got behind him fast enough to send him forward and in doing so, we'd've to have let go of the front end so god knows where he would have ended up!

 

[1Lucie]

Erm never

 

[1Lucie]

Sorry above in error wrong thread lol