duty of care on a livery yard

[showjumper95]

Hi everyone

I have 2 horses on a livery yard and I am on DIY the same as the majority of the other people there, there is no contract or agreement in writing, so should it be the yard owner who should take responsibility for fixing things such as fencing, field maintenance etc or is it the horse owner? Some of the fencing on the fields are a bit dodgy and potentially dangerous, so if one of my horses or another of the liveries horses were injured due to the fencing etc who would be to blame as such?
Myself and the other liveries have been asking the YO for ages to sort the problem of fencing out, and she gives us no answers!!

Thanks

 

[AmyMay]

It would be the YO's responsibility to maintain all aspects of the yard.

Vote with your feet I'd say. Because you also have a duty of care not to put your horse in harms way.

 

[darkhorse123]

It would be the YO's responsibility to maintain all aspects of the yard.

Vote with your feet I'd say. Because you also have a duty of care not to put your horse in harms way.

agree with this - if you think your horse is not safe, move

 

[charlimouse]

Tbh if you have no contract it is a tricky one. At the end of the day you have chosen to keep your horse at that yard. If there was an accident caused by unsuitable fencing for example I think you may have a fight on your hands to get the YO to pay up. I would ask the yard owner directly who is responsible, and whilst you are at it get a contract put in place. If YO refuses I would move yards.

 

[Ladydragon]

Personally I'd say the YO should repair and maintain their own property...

However, you know the fences are a mess and a potential hazard to your horses... So arguably, if you leave things as they are and there's an injury - the responsibility lies with you...

If she won't 'make safe' I'd be out of there myself and find a new yard... I wouldn't let my kids travel in a car with broken seat belts and neither would I expose the horses to an obvious potential risk...

 

[L&M]

Some would say that DIY means just that....if it's broke fix it yourself.

Others may say if the fencing etc was in a state of disrepair when you put your horses their, you knew what the facilites/lack of were like so can't complain. DIY yards (and livery in general) are not a huge profit maker, some YO's are reluctant to pay out money on expensive jobs such as fencing.

Personally I would say that it is the YO's responsibility to do basic maintenance. However if you have no written contract it would be hard to prove who is responsible for what.

 

[AmyMay]

Some would say that DIY means just that....if it's broke fix it yourself.

No that is not what DIY means at all. It merely means that you are responsible for all aspects of your horses care.

If you are renting a yard lock stock and barrel, then it's different and yes you would most likely be responsible for maintaining the property.

 

[Littlelegs]

Agree with amymay. Even if the yo pays out happily, for me its not worth having my horses injured regardless of whether it costs me or someone else.

 

[ihatework]

Technically, in most cases, on DIY livery the yard owner has the responsibility to maintain fencing.

In practice, fencing is hugely expensive to maintain, it's best done on an ongoing basis otherwise to replace huge sections costs £££££.

In many instances DIY'ers are on a budget, they want to pay the lowest amount possible yet expect the earth.

Usually when you look around a yard you can tell straight away what a YO attitude to maintenance is, and my opinion is that as horse owners we have to take some responsibility for where we livery our horses. If a yard is poorly maintained before we arrive it isn't likely to change if we whinge and play the 'duty of care' card.

So you have 3 options ...
1. Fix it yourself
2. Pay more money and look for a better yard
3. Stay where you are, don't fix it and take your chances

 

[AmyMay]

Technically, in most cases, on DIY livery the yard owner has the responsibility to maintain fencing.

In practice, fencing is hugely expensive to maintain, it's best done on an ongoing basis otherwise to replace huge sections costs £££££.

In many instances DIY'ers are on a budget, they want to pay the lowest amount possible yet expect the earth.

Usually when you look around a yard you can tell straight away what a YO attitude to maintenance is, and my opinion is that as horse owners we have to take some responsibility for where we livery our horses. If a yard is poorly maintained before we arrive it isn't likely to change if we whinge and play the 'duty of care' card.

So you have 3 options ...
1. Fix it yourself
2. Pay more money and look for a better yard
3. Stay where you are, don't fix it and take your chances

I've only ever been on yards where DIY is offered. It has nothing to do with finances - I like to do my horse myself. And I have never had to maintain any aspect of the yard or fencing. That has been done by the YO, and always to a very high standard.

 

[ihatework]

I've only ever been on yards where DIY is offered. It has nothing to do with finances - I like to do my horse myself. And I have never had to maintain any aspect of the yard or fencing. That has been done by the YO, and always to a very high standard.

Amymay you completely missed my point.

I've done everything from basic DIY to full, with a variety of facilities.

When looking at yards I've found the quality of fencing is often fairly proportional to the amount you pay for the area, irrespective of if you are on full or DIY.

You can be on a good DIY and have great well maintained fencing, but you are normally paying a fair rate for the service.

I see time and time again people paying £60-80 pcm for DIY stable/field/school and whinging that the fencing is crap .... I wonder why that is

 

[Sophstar]

i started a thread the other day regarding our fencing on our diy yard as my pony found all the broken bits and kept escaping. I believe it is the YO's job to maintain the boundary fences and if my pony actually breaks it then I will repair it and if I want my ponies in a smaller paddock I have my own electric tape. There is in no doubt that our YO has got the money to pay someone to redo all our fencing as he gets over £4k a month in rent alone (we also have 3 mechanics and a carpenter renting barns on our yard) but the simple fact is he is a greedy man despite how nice he is to your face.

My friend and I are currently hunting out a new yard as despite my pony and 2 other liveries escaping into someone else's field (through a completely rotten fence post) and me explaining this to the YO and asking him to sort the fencing, I promptly got told there were spare posts and rails, take what I needed. I don't think so, I don't fork out money for me to do all the hard graft of fitting post and rail fences too.

 

[AmyMay]

You can be on a good DIY and have great well maintained fencing, but you are normally paying a fair rate for the service.

I can't argue with you on that point. All the yards in my area (around 7 or 8) are essentially DIY and again charging about the same price (circa £150 odd a month). You do the horse - the YO does the maintenance. All the yards are to a very high standard.

I see time and time again people paying £60-80 pcm for DIY stable/field/school and whinging that the fencing is crap .... I wonder why that is

Yes, I suppose if you are paying bucket prices then there possibly isn't going to be enough money generated to maintain the yard. However, that still doesn't mean that the livery is responsible for the maintenance. Unless, as I said earlier, they are renting the yard lock stock and barrel.

 

[AmyMay]

I promptly got told there were spare posts and rails, take what I needed. I don't think so, I don't fork out money for me to do all the hard graft of fitting post and rail fences too.

Out of interest Sophstar, how much do you pay a month for livery?

 

[Sophstar]

Out of interest Sophstar, how much do you pay a month for livery?

I've got 2 ponies there each costing £100 basic just grazing and a stable I was told I HAD to have, despite me not using it because again the YO won't fix the holes in the roof which means the mechanic and his spray shop fumes come through from next door.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Believe me, no matter what the YO says or does, you will be on the losing end in any dispute, best to get together and arrange a livery meeting, [the YO will go nuts if she finds out you are conspiring together], then approach YO and ask for fencing to be repaired to make it safe and secure.
It is a given that if offering livery with turnout, that the turnout is safe.

 

[AmyMay]

Amymay you completely missed my point.

I did Apols.

That'll teach me to speed read.

 

[Sophstar]

The YO really doesn't care. At 86, he's happy just to keep us handing money over and his grandson and sons who are perfectly capable of doing some work up there are rubbing their hands together for when it all gets handed over. We know where the money for new fencing has gone when the YO and his wife drove onto the yard in a new £36k car. He laughed when I said the ponies had escaped and said 'bet they had fun' and when I said my pony had made a bid for freedom munching away in our hay field I pretty much got the same comment. My friend and I are the only ones who have fixed parts of the fence to protect my escapee as the other liveries have helped the YO in the past and never even got a thank you so have given up, despite them whinging that their insurance will probably be invalid if their horses escaped and had an accident. Hence why we are desperate to move!

 

[Worried1]

You are paying the lower end for DIY so you have two choices: either move or invest in some electric fencing and an energiser and sort the fencing problem yourself.

 

[Sophstar]

You are paying the lower end for DIY so you have two choices: either move or invest in some electric fencing and an energiser and sort the fencing problem yourself.

My £150 worth of electric tape is already out covering one side of fencing but I do not have the money to invest in enough fencing for a 9 acre field, especially as it has 5 other horses in it who do not belong to me. An 8 acre field that needs all of its fencing fixed or re done. My fencing covers the worst of it but my friend and I are hunting out a new yard tomorrow or somewhere to rent for 4 horses, so I'm taking up both options

 

[birchave0]

the YO should make sure the fences are secure, and ensure he has public liability insurance in place should a horse escape and cause an accident.

on the other hand I've seen perfectly good fencing be trashed by horses, rails munched, gates bent by horses scratching their butts, electric fencing demolished, and at no time has the owner of the offending horse offered to pay for the damage.

so two sides to every story, pay peanuts and get monkeys, or pay more and reside at a decent yard.

 

[Ladydragon]

I see time and time again people paying £60-80 pcm for DIY stable/field/school and whinging that the fencing is crap .... I wonder why that is

Maybe the fact we livery on a working farm (and area) makes a difference to the effort the YO expends on property maintenance... Plus they are a 'decent' couple...

I pay less than what you quoted for a stable, turnout and school, but the farmer is pretty fanatical about ensuring the fencing around the turnout is secure with good stock fencing and electric tape to separate the school and the area they use for 'pet stock'...

In the OP's position though, where the YO is pretty darn useless and irresponsible, I would rather move than try and argue responsibility *after* the vet needs to be called out... Or if moving isn't an option - dig deep and sort the fencing out myself... A horrible situation and yes, the YO should get his backside into gear - but you could argue that until there's an injury that requires a horse being PTS...

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Hi everyone

there is no contract or agreement in writing,:

I am horrified!!! Firstly you and the other liveries (and the YO) need to sort this issue out. There is a very good template for a contract on the BHS website and you can download it & print it out, and amend it as both sides see fit, then both sides sign it (have it witnessed too!) and then at least you'd have something to use as who does what.

At the moment you're in a situation where there's ambiguity, and where you've got that, you've got the potential for problems, which is obviously what's happened here.

I'm a YO and do DIY. Liveries are responsible for "do'ing" their own horses and I won't interfere and handle anyone else's horse - unless of course there is an emergency. DIY means DIY and that's why I won't do anything unless emergency situation, although having said that because I live on site I'm perfectly happy to be around to meet & greet people like farriers, vets etc if the owner can't be there, no problem.

As YO I'm responsible for maintaining fences, buildings, gates, water drinkers etc etc. So if something's brought to my attention it becomes my responsibility to fix it.

Sometimes there are set-ups where you hire a "yard" and its a bit like renting a property where you are responsible for maintaining things and there is no YO as such on site, and in that sort of set up then yes I would expect the "tenant" to carry out routine maintenance if that's stated in the agreement.

But think you and other liveries need to sit down with your YO and discuss putting in place a contract. If you download the BHS one and show it to her and ask her what she thinks of it that might be a start? My guess is that she'll be relieved that someone's taking a responsible attitude to the whole thing.

However, if YO won't institute a contract or even consider same, then personally I'd walk away and try to find somewhere else PDQ.

With anything connected with horses everyone needs to know EXACTLY where they stand and if you don't have a contract in place then it can cause problems like this, and far worse.

 

[AmyMay]

At the moment you're in a situation where there's ambiguity, and where you've got that, you've got the potential for problems, which is obviously what's happened here.

Not really though. I've never signed a contract - but there has been no ambiguity on who was responsible for what.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

In theory the landowner has to ensure a field with stock in it is 'stockproof'. However, this can be achieved by a couple of strands of barbed wire as livestock would be kept in by that. Arguing the niceties of barbed wire and horses may get you compensation but wont bring back a horse thats badly hurt on it ie the victory in court might be a hollow one. Most DIY prices wont be enough to pay for lovely post and rail or high quality mains electric.

Also a lot of farms offer livery cheaper than 'proper' livery yards but they do this as a sideline and the downside is that they arent registered as livery yards, they dont have to pay business rates as there is a special concession for farm diversification and hence its all a bit informal - hence the lack of clarity and the lack of contracts.

I have found with livery yards that there is often not the option of negotiation with landowners. You take it, or you go somewhere else. Here, if you have the other liveries with you, you have strength in numbers, he might be happy to see one of you walk but not all of you, but you do need all to be prepared to indulge in brinkmanship.

But bear in mind that fencing is about the most expensive thing around the whole livery thing. Maybe £5 a metre supplied and fitted just for stock fencing, not horsey standard. So I would anticipate if a full blown re fencing is required, then liveries may well have to pay more for the livery as a consequence.

If it were me, I would be asking the other liveries to buy the extra electric needed to make the paddocks secure, or I would leave, not too much point in negotiating with a chap of his age.