Early pregnancy loss - ?? Regumate

[JanetGeorge]

Now I'm with those who think Regumate is excessively and unnecessarily used to 'support' pregnancies - when there is no real indication it's needed - and I've NEVER put a mare on Regumate for that purpose before.

But I have a visiting mare here - who also came last year.

Last year: 1st cycle - natural cover. 14 day scan positive - 28 days it was gone. 2nd time lucky and she got in foal and kept it.

This year: 1st cycle - AI with chilled (different stallion). 14 day positive - I got smart and scanned at 21 days - it was nearly gone and she was coming back into season. AI'd again - and today we have a 14 day +ve. Given her history - and so late in the season - is there any point giving her Regumate.

My vet is on holidays - his junior colleague (who does have quite a lot of repro experience) says there's no evidence that Regumate helps THIS early - but she's happy to give it a go. Any experiences, thoughts??

And if we DO put her on Regumate - and she holds the pregnancy - for how long?

 

[AndyPandy]

Almost all the evidence for Regumate use is anecdotal... so she's pretty justified in saying there's "no [real] evidence".

Have had a blood progesterone assay done? Perhaps that would be a good place to start. Although there is now agreed boundary for "low" progesterone, I think <3ng might suggest deficiency. There are almost hourly variations so you'd have to do bloods over the course of a few days to get an average.

The potential problems include:
1) Regumate supplementation may reduce endogenous/natural progesterone production... thereby cancelling out any potential beneficial effect.
2) If there is an unidentified pathogen in the uterus, then it may be allowed to flourish as Regumate reduced the uterus' ability to mount an immune response against pathogens.

The evidence that is present suggests that therapy should be started at 3 days post ovulation to provide protection through the EED risk period (up to 30-45 days). It can then be ended at 45 days, or 150, or 300 depending on your school of thought! I would suggest day 150 if you were to use it, as this is the time at which natural progesterone production falls, and feto-placental progestins rise and take the role of progesterone.

Have you had culture AND cytology done? Anything back at all? Biopsy?

Problem is, she might hold this pregnancy anyway... if you do give her Regumate... then Regumate will get the credit. If you don't give it to her, and she loses it, lack of Regumate will get the blame... I suppose you've got nothing to lose by giving it to her, as long as all pathogenic causes of abortion have been discounted.

Hope that helps

 

[JanetGeorge]

Thanks Andy - that's helpful. Last year she held fine the second time - without Regumate.

And I guess if it should have started 3 days post-ovulation it's a bit late now - as she was AI'd 16 days ago.

We haven't had any tests done - she had an easy foaling and got in foal the first try, so didn't seem any need - I'm just worrying on the owner's behalf! Of course if she follows last year, she'll hold this time without anything!

The problem WITH doing a PG assay is partly the fact that it's further delay (by the time we get the results she'd have lost it if she's going to as she lost it prior to 21 day scan last time.) And the cost, of course. We don't have any more vet visits scheduled before middle of next week so she'd need a couple of solo visits - pushing the cost up to several hundred pounds. Being AI'd this year rather than NC, the vet costs are going to be considerably higher than last year anyway, so I'm reluctant to push them up unnecessarily. I don't think owner has money to burn!

Perhaps - under the circumstances - the best bet will be to sit on my hands and scan her again next week.

 

[nikkiportia]

We have used it in the past, on one mare in paticular, who had a history of aborting, and it worked for her.
I do know of some places that use it far too much for this purpose. For example, if the embryo looks slightly smaller than normal, or if the mare has any history whatsoever. But our stud vet is not quite as keen, and only recommends it for special cases.
It is expensive, but for some of our owners, they would rather pay in the hope it will help the mare keep the pregnancy, rather than losing it and then wishing they had tried regumate.

 

[springfallstud]

One of my mares has done just the same, lost it last year after the first scan hence why this years was a little later than planned, covered her once this year and scanned in foal ( so pleased as had to collect from Heathrow from a same day flight as stud messed up delivery, then after 4 hour wait at airport being told they think the package never got unloaded it turns up so rush to yard and vet pops it in at 8pm so thrilled when scanned in foal) then scanned 28 days and gone! Very depressing but we have let her go to start early next year but may consider Regumate, will discuss with my vet Paula the options and possable reasons (she isnt a caslicks mare as looks fine but may also be a reason)

 

[Alba]

Two of my mares regularly lose their pregnancies between the 16 day and 28 day scan, so for these mares, the moment I get a positive first scan I put them on Regumate for 8 weeks and neither has lost their pregnancies since. Yes in the past they have sometimes held without Regumate but they always hold with Regumate so I just dont take the risk anymore.

 

[paulineh]

my mare was scanned at 17 days and again at 30 days in foal.


She continued to look in foal up to 370 days when I asked my vet to come and do an internal (She was empty had lost the foal at some time).

A friend of mine is an animal communicator so she came to see Crystal. Crystal told her that she had lost another foal.My vet has said that there is no reason why Crystal should not carry a foal full term.

My mare will go back to stud next year and as I only intend to breed one foal she will go onto "Regumate" from the day she comes out of season and will stay on it for 100 days when she will be scanned again.

This advise was given to me by an old stud manager.

A friends mare failed to keep her foal last year so they put her on "Regumate" and this year she has had a lovely filly.

I personally have no experiance with it but as it has worked for my friend I will use it next year.

 

[Spyda]

My mare develops placental abruption at around 3 or 4 months gestation. She lost her first foal between 4 and 5 months because of this. Second time around we caught her in time to prevent her aborting, but not in time to stop some placental abruption occuring. She had been regularly scanned but it was not until the fourth month scan that the problem became evident (for the second consecutive pregnancy.) The mare was put onto daily Regumate immediately and continued on it until 320 days gestation. She foaled on day 354 without complication.

For the third pregnancy she was put on Regumate on day 19 post AI insemination - as soon as pregnancy was detected. She will remain on it until day 320 again - just to be on the safe side. She's now 5 months in foal and all scans this time around show a nice healthy, WELL ATTACHED! placenta and nicely developing foalie. Maybe she might not have needed the Regumate this time around but twice bitten - now very shy of NOT using it for this particular mare.

It's an additional cost I could do without but I use porcine regumate which is cheaper than the equine version and is working equally well.

I'd recommend it if a mare needs it to hold a pregnancy.

PS. Thought I'd better add that this mare HAS been thoroughly checked for any form of reproductive infection. Nothing abnormal has been detected despite our best efforts to establish a reason for the placenta detaching from the uterine wall at around the fourth month.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
It is expensive, but for some of our owners, they would rather pay in the hope it will help the mare keep the pregnancy, rather than losing it and then wishing they had tried regumate.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly what I did with my mare - after her loosing pregnancies the previous year.

Ultimately we had no foal from her - with her aborting several weeks before her due date......