Effects of feeding on eating related behaviour

Lvrees

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Hello,

I am doing my dissertation on restricting forage and its relation to eating related behaviours.

I would just like to start a discussion and ask for any imput, personal experiences and opinions in relation to this.

It has become apparent through many studies that stereotypic behaviours are quite commonly associated with management regimes.

Through scientific investigations, indications that crib biting and other eating related disorders have a close connection to stomach acid build up which cause gastric ulcers. These have been clinically proven to be the cause of low saliva production. Horses only produce saliva when they are chewing, therefore, restricting the horses forage intake has been proven to be detrimental to the horses health.

However, horses that are overweight or need a high energy diet tend to be fed very little forage, with restrictive turn out and grazing.

Horses as we know are trickle feeders, this means they eat small amounts throughout the day. And in the wild they always have access to food, finding it by the means of foraging etc...
A feral horse eats when its hungry and stops when its full, they always eat enough to have energy, yet not to much that they are to full and sluggish to run from a predator.
It is a common misconception that horses get laminitus from eating to much, when the majority of the cases are either stress induced, or due to a sudden massive increase of food or change of diet or quality of food. You can do more research on this via the internet if you disagree with me.

In many yards, horse owners insist on giving there horses restrictive amounts of forage. For example a 4 pound haynet to last the horse a night, also restrictive grazing or hay at certain times of the day. To prevent the horse from putting on weight. Is this beneficial, or even natural???

The Argument...

Does restrictive grazing/forage make a horse greedy? Is it then detrimental to the horse?

Horses are naturally herd animals, living on wide planes or mountains, foraging for food. The food isnt necesserally good quality, therefore they are not getting a constant supply of nutrients. Horses have evolved to adapt to this.

In the domestic situation we are putting the horse on good quality grass therefore they are getting rich nutrients, and a constant supply of forage. But this is not all year round, in the winter due to lack of grazing many people find that they have poor grazing in the winter, and they have to either substitute with hay, or put their horses in a new field. Then comes spring when the grass grows and all of a sudden they are eating good grass again.



My view

I belive that by feeding horses small amounts of forage, it makes them greedy. They are used to having only a small amount at a time, therefore alot of the time they are stood hungry. When the feed comes they stuff themselves, and therefore the feed is gone.
I feed Boston Adlib Hay, he has 2 massive haynets in the night and every morning I come in and there is plenty left, because he knows he always has food, so he doesnt bolt it down because he only eats when hes hungry. In comparison, there is a horse on the yard who only gets a small net at breakfast, one and lunch and one at about 5pm when hes put to bed, he's normally finished this net by half 6 when I put Boston to bed, and is weaving over his stable door as I feed my horse.

I have seen this many times in the equine world where people have restricted their diet and therefore the horse has developed stereotypical behavoural problems. While if they had always been given the option to forage as they please they would know when to stop and therefore not have weight issues??

Your views please!!!

Also I will be using this discussion in as part of my research so hope you dont mind!!
 

dwi

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my mare was on ad lib haylage and no hard feed when I bought her and was very fat. She clearly didn't know when to stop.

She is now on a limited amount of hay each night plus a small feed of Happy Hoof and Slim and Healthy am and pm. She is happy and healthy with no vices.

I'm not denying that removing forage for long periods is detrimental but I think that for natives with weight problems managing the amount that they eat is a sensible option.

My friend's 21 coloured cob is fussy and actually won't eat her hay if you put too much in. she appears to get overfaced if you give her more than a small portion.
 

TGM

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Well, I bred my mare and I can tell you she was born greedy! She took a lot of milk off her dam, and when she was weaned she was turned out at grass with some other youngsters. By the end of the summer she was fat as a pig, whilst the others weren't! If you watch her grazing with other horses she will nearly always have her head down eating, whilst the others will take a break from eating when they have had enough.

I feed my other two as much forage as they want (so there is some left in the morning) but I can't do that to my 'fatty'. However, she still gets more forage than the others, but just eats it quicker!

I do wonder whether animals (and humans) with a tendency to obesity have some abnormality in the mechanism that tells them they have had enough food.
 

AmyMay

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As yo say in your post, horses are trickle feeders.

However, many of us also have horses and ponies that are designed to live on the side of a mountain, and therefore metabalise their food differently from something like a TB.

My horse is a cob, greedy, and always on a diet. If I allowed her to have adlib hay or haylage, and access to as much spring and summer grass as she wanted she'd be dead by now.

I think that the rule of adlib is in theory absolutely right - however, in practice is just not practicable to the more native breed of horse.
 

Lucy_Ally

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What are you going to measure to confirm your hypothesis? "Greediness" is not really a quantifiable outcome. How are you going to control for external factors? The development of sterotypies are not so straight forward, the history, management, nutrional status, type of horse, surroundings and fitness may all play a part and will vary enormously between horses. From this it is virtually impossible to determine which is the most influential factor contributing to the horses behaviour.
Is this a questionnaire based study? Or will you be taking measurements from horses?

Whilst I am of the opinion that horses need plenty of roughage - ad-lib feeding is a fairly contentious issue and in some cases it is not practical or in the best interest of the horse (as you will have seen from the posts already). Also, some horses can be deemed greedier than others but this is not a scientific outcome measure and it would be hard to base a credible dissertation around this.

Good luck with your research.
 

Lvrees

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[ QUOTE ]
What are you going to measure to confirm your hypothesis? "Greediness" is not really a quantifiable outcome. How are you going to control for external factors? The development of sterotypies are not so straight forward, the history, management, nutrional status, type of horse, surroundings and fitness may all play a part and will vary enormously between horses. From this it is virtually impossible to determine which is the most influential factor contributing to the horses behaviour.
Is this a questionnaire based study? Or will you be taking measurements from horses?

Whilst I am of the opinion that horses need plenty of roughage - ad-lib feeding is a fairly contentious issue and in some cases it is not practical or in the best interest of the horse (as you will have seen from the posts already). Also, some horses can be deemed greedier than others but this is not a scientific outcome measure and it would be hard to base a credible dissertation around this.

Good luck with your research.

[/ QUOTE ]


No I am measuring what feeding policies effect eating related behaviours, NOT just greediness. I have been researching this for well over 3 months and if my supervisor had thought that my methods and hypothosis were not correct then I wouldnt be doing this still.

This discussion is purely to gain owners and riders input, their thoughts etc. I have also sent out questionnaires and am monitoring horses behaviour when they have various types and amount of forage.

So yes, I believe that this dissertation will be creditable.
 

AmyMay

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With regard to the behaviour question then concerning a restriction of hay and grazing - my mare has never exhibited any behavioural problems related to this.

She doesn't weave, crib, or windsuck. Has never had colic.

Hope this helps.
 

Lucy_Ally

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Ok, but you have to agree that you cannot solely link feeding policy to behaviour - there are too many other factors out of your control which may affect the development of stereotypies?
confused.gif


Again, how are you quantifying "eating related behaviors"? I am not trying to pick holes in your project I am sure you have researched it well, however if I was marking your dissertation these are things that I would want to know. As someone that does equine research I have been subject to much scrutiny and criticism and have had to learn to not take it personally and ensure my methodology is as water-tight as possible so I can defend my research well.
 

Lvrees

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Yeh, what I need to know is whether or not the horses behaviour has been effected by this. Doesnt have to be stereotypical behaviour, but stable vices such as door kicking, head throwing, aggressiveness to other horses and other people? Whether the horse bolts the hay and then stands by the door or takes their time and nibbles away through the night.
 

AmyMay

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The only thing that Amy is is aggressive about her food when other horses are around. However, this is only hard food, not hay. And I personally don't think that it is linked to any kind of rationing.
 

Lvrees

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[ QUOTE ]
Ok, but you have to agree that you cannot solely link feeding policy to behaviour - there are too many other factors out of your control which may affect the development of stereotypies?
confused.gif


Again, how are you quantifying "eating related behaviors"? I am not trying to pick holes in your project I am sure you have researched it well, however if I was marking your dissertation these are things that I would want to know. As someone that does equine research I have been subject to much scrutiny and criticism and have had to learn to not take it personally and ensure my methodology is as water-tight as possible so I can defend my research well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there is many other factors that are linked to stereotypies.... There are soooooo many theories, opinions and studies that contradict eachother. This is my second dissertation, first one was on self mutilation in comparison to humans for which I got a 1st. Within this research I found that feeding had a large impression on behaviour. And through this dissertion I am investigating how much relation it has got with behaviour, my hypothosis may be wrong, I may find that rationing hay or feeding different qualities of hay isnt a main factor in eating related behaviours, but I am going to find out. My supervisors and lecturers are more than happy with the work I have done so far, and believe I have a good hypothosis. May be I am just lucky that your not marking this.
 

Lucy_Ally

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[ QUOTE ]

May be I am just lucky that your not marking this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you are - but I was being constuctive and I apologise if you have taken it the wrong way.
Good luck with your research.
 

Lvrees

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No I havent, I completely see your being constructive, but I have been working on this for a long time. This is merely a small part of my research into this, and if you were may be to read some of the papers written by people such as Nicol, mcgreevy, henderson, Houpt and mcdonnel, then you will see for yourself all studies point in the direction of feeding issues. I am merely delving deaper than they have done.
I am the same when people some to me with their ideas for their BA dissertations, I question whether the idea is creditable. Likewise I questioned this idea. Thank you for your input.
 

showjump2003

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In the 20 or so horses I have owned I don't think I have ever been able to link feeding to behaviour apart from the normal herd behaviour in the field (herd leader chasing others off food).

From the three I have at the moment I have a very fat cob. In the summer she spends most her time on a starvation block and never exibits any bad habits resulting from being restricted. She never has any haylage left in the morning as she is given a restricted amount at night and in the morning she stands as calmly as anything to wait for her feed. This horse would not know when to stop feed wise. She will eat as much as she can!

My other horse exibits a few bad habits... but non connected to feed. She kicks her stable door for attention. Not at feed time but when I am on the yard and she is being ignored! She gets tonnes of haylage at night and there is always plenty left in the morning. When I change her rugs in the morning she gets a little aggressive and naughty but not because she is hungry. My horse refuses to wee in the stable over night so in the morning is desperate to get out! Think this is the reason for her aggressiveness.

I have also had a horse that weaves, but never to do with waiting for feed, it was caused by the stress of being alone.
 

TGM

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As regards stereotypies etc., here are my observations on my own horses:

Pony fed adlib - snapping at people passing too close to the stable door
Horse fed adlib - occasional mild boxwalking/weaving/headtossing on rare occasions when turnout is restricted
Pony on restricted forage (not adlib but not severely restricted either) - no stable vices, but can be threatening to other horses if haylage is fed in field.
 

Lvrees

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Very interesting, it is hard however to determine whether behaviour is related to attention. A study was done on this and proves that attention seeking is generaly not a main causal factor relating to a behaviour but a conditioned response to a stimuli. So I'd be a little hesitant to believe a horse kicks the door purely for attention from its owners.
 

Nari

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My ID gets ad-lib hay (always some left in the morning) & a straw bed that he also nibbles sometimes. Daily turnout in a group of eight - in the summer 24/7 if he wants it - & no cereal feed. I've had him since a 2yo & bought him off his breeder who would have kept him out 24/7. He still cribs though! I'd almost prefer it if he was greedy, that way he'd eat more hay & spend less time cribbing. If hay is put in the field he usually spends as much time guarding it as eating it which is very annoying when he's so dominant that the others daren't even eat the piles furthest away from him
mad.gif
 

Lvrees

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Have you tried varying the forage, giving him may be one hay hay net and another haylage... that has been proven to reduce cribbing.

Cribbing is said to be caused by feeding of concentrates and lack of forage yet it also becomes a habit. Did he crib before you had him???
 

dwi

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why do you think horses bang on the door if not for attention? Mine doesn't like being left, it doesn't seem to be anything to do with food. She's just opinionated
 

Lvrees

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[ QUOTE ]
why do you think horses bang on the door if not for attention?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there are scientific studies and research that indicate that they dont.
 

dwi

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I wasn't having a pop, I'm genuinely curious. Why do you think my horse bangs? If I knew I could do something about it other than physically stopping her with a water bucket
 

AmyMay

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why do you think horses bang on the door if not for attention?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there are scientific studies and research that indicate that they dont.

[/ QUOTE ]
But don't you think that there is an argument to say that all habits are formed out of conditioning???
 

Lvrees

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Sorry read your reply wrong. I dont know why they bang on the door, I've not studied it and like with everything it depends on the horse, I have only researched and read papers that have performed studies on these behaviours. Basically it all comes down to the heirachy of learning. A horse learns to associate an action with a stimuli, for example, horses associate the lights turning on with feeding, they then one day they kick the door when the light turns on and therefore learn that kicking the door means they get feed.

I will try and find a copy of the paper for you!
 

Sparklet

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My horse is also aggressive with hard feed and will kick out at anything that moves when eating. However she is fed ad-lib hay because she needs the weight.

It would be difficult to attribute food rationing to aggressiveness if both restricted and ad-lib horses both display it
 

Nari

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Lvrees I've tried that, also offering Hi-Fi Lite in a big bucket as a third choice & some hay wet & some dry. I've also split his hay etc into different nets & piles placed in different places in his box. THe only effect was a few people on the yard thought I was totally nuts
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. I now just feed the type of hay he likes on the floor by the door since that seems to be what he likes best, that way he tends to eat looking over the door instead of standing cribbing while looking out.

He'd crib on a lead rope when I bought him & he'd never have been stabled or fed concentrates regularly by his breeder (I've known her for years & know how she keeps her youngsters).
 

sleepingdragon10

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[ QUOTE ]

Cribbing is said to be caused by feeding of concentrates and lack of forage yet it also becomes a habit. Did he crib before you had him???

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's rather a sweeping statement Lvrees!You cannot possibly make a statement that that is the only reason behind a horse cribbing!
This thread does make an interesting read, I'll give you that
smile.gif


xx
 

voltaire

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I agree with this.

Not that I'm trying to add to your work and I'm sure your hypothesis is great, but I think it would be of much more value if you could also take the metabolic rate of the horse as well.

A recent study of humans (which I know far more about than horses) shows very clearly that what makes one person fat will not necessarily make another. Studies in scandinavia are now starting to indicate that "greed" has nothing to do with how big / fat someone is. Two people can eat the same diet for a week and do the same amount of exercise. One can lose weight whilst the other gains it. Metabolism is only one factor that affects this, but there are indications that there are genetic predispositions towards some people gaining weight from certain foodstuffs.

If there are genetic predispositions towards a bodys response to food and different types of food, I don't think it illogical to suggest that this could affect behaviour relating to food and feed - certainly in humans. I see a only a tiny-hop in logic to then suggest that it may be the same for horses.

Perhaps you are just looking for a very large generalisation as a result of your research. But I, for one, would be fascinated to read the results of your research were you to include other factors.
 

Lvrees

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[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this.

Not that I'm trying to add to your work and I'm sure your hypothesis is great, but I think it would be of much more value if you could also take the metabolic rate of the horse as well.

A recent study of humans (which I know far more about than horses) shows very clearly that what makes one person fat will not necessarily make another. Studies in scandinavia are now starting to indicate that "greed" has nothing to do with how big / fat someone is. Two people can eat the same diet for a week and do the same amount of exercise. One can lose weight whilst the other gains it. Metabolism is only one factor that affects this, but there are indications that there are genetic predispositions towards some people gaining weight from certain foodstuffs.

If there are genetic predispositions towards a bodys response to food and different types of food, I don't think it illogical to suggest that this could affect behaviour relating to food and feed - certainly in humans. I see a only a tiny-hop in logic to then suggest that it may be the same for horses.

Perhaps you are just looking for a very large generalisation as a result of your research. But I, for one, would be fascinated to read the results of your research were you to include other factors.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not basing my results on greed!! I have said this, There are many reasons why horses are fat, horses can get diabetes for example and a starch intolerance which will make them keep weight on, plus many other feed intolerances. This is not the reason for my study as that has nothing to do with the behaviour I am studying. Although in my introduction I have spent a large paragraph explaining this!!! If my study was on weight gain then I would really love to delve into metabolism etc, and if I had more time and a higher word count I would definately involve this into my project as like you with humans, with horses it interestest me a lot. But not as much as behaviour!!!!

All this discussion was meant to do was to provide some owners opinions on it. Its not my dissertation in one discussion!!

And the fact that this area has such a large scale of opinions etc it makes a better project because dissertations arnt supposed to have one firm fixture, but to give insight into what more studies can be performed etc, while delving a little deeper into a subject which does have gaps!!
 
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