Dressage EG and Glocks ToTo Jr score over 86% in the KUR

[shortstuff99]

I have seen a video of EG bringing out the Totilas son in the GP kur. Scoring over 86%.

https://www.facebook.com/560785464057275/posts/2035247246611082

What are your thoughts? I had hoped we had moved away from this style of dressage as it does nothing for me (too tense, too much flash in front and nothing behind). But many fans have enjoyed seeing a performance that is reminiscent of Totilas.

 

[shortstuff99]

If you click on the video/post you can watch it.

 

[milliepops]

the whole test from a slightly awkward angle is here. can anyone find the whole CMH one without having to subscribe?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2523481621277233

again if you click watch on facebook it should go to the post.

um, well in the interests of having some debate on HHO i actually quite enjoyed watching it. IIRC the horse is 9 and only started GP this year. I do so admire Gal's test riding. and I love a freestyle that gives me goosebumps.

 

[milliepops]

as it's totilas's freestyle it's quite fun to compare them. i think the neck is better with Toto Jr and also the hindleg.

 

[shortstuff99]

the whole test from a slightly awkward angle is here. can anyone find the whole CMH one without having to subscribe?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2523481621277233

again if you click watch on facebook it should go to the post.

um, well in the interests of having some debate on HHO i actually quite enjoyed watching it. IIRC the horse is 9 and only started GP this year. I do so admire Gal's test riding. and I love a freestyle that gives me goosebumps.

I think he is a very good rider I am just not a fan of the training/breeding that produces this style of going. However, I get why it is appealing as it is very WOW!

I wonder if he will end up with the same sort of scores and/or therefore the soundness problems of Totilas?

 

[milliepops]

yes, it was carefully worded, I enjoy his *test* riding

I don't know. i think so much of whether horses stay sound or not is luck, it's impossible to say what causes what sometimes. I think pushing horses to their limits like GP dressage or 5* eventing will mean that many fall by the wayside due to injury anyway, just in a lower profile stable we probably don't notice it so much because the horses aren't in the spotlight at the time.

 

[Goldenstar]

EG is not just a good rider he’s an amazing rider .
The horse is lovely stallion so forward and I don’t see him as very tense he’s young and new to this level it’s a great performance .
I love watching EG he rides hot horses so well and he always positions the horse perfectly within the arena his discipline is total he never misses a mark .

 

[Goldenstar]

yes, it was carefully worded, I enjoy his *test* riding

I don't know. i think so much of whether horses stay sound or not is luck, it's impossible to say what causes what sometimes. I think pushing horses to their limits like GP dressage or 5* eventing will mean that many fall by the wayside due to injury anyway, just in a lower profile stable we probably don't notice it so much because the horses aren't in the spotlight at the time.

I agree with this .
On this forum people have horses falling by the wayside all the time there’s little difference in my mind .

 

[milliepops]

he always positions the horse perfectly within the arena his discipline is total he never misses a mark .

hard to get a bad score when you ride a very well presented, totally clear round

 

[Goldenstar]

hard to get a bad score when you ride a very well presented, totally clear round

Exactly and that applies to all tests at all levels .

 

[milliepops]

indeed. really really good test riding is something that is often overlooked I think. it's quite hard to become that disciplined unless you have someone yelling at you about the precision that some of these top riders seem to be able to pull off without thinking!

(makes note to self to get a bit more input on this because our next aim is I2 and that's going to take a lot of riding!)

it's an interesting thing to think about though. I am not sure there's been a reaction away from the likes of the Totilas-type, Totilas himself came under a lot of criticism after the initial OMG-ness and I think that sort of coincided with the rise of people like Charlotte (not just her, just for shorthand she's a good example) and horses raised under a different system. but the other spider-legged Glocks horses have been consistently up there in the scores.

 

[shortstuff99]

I agree with this .
On this forum people have horses falling by the wayside all the time there’s little difference in my mind .

Does the level of the 'wastage' make a difference? I do know that his stable 'wastage' (for want of a better term) is pretty high, while if one of mine was to be injured they would still stay with me.

Does his training style matter if it produces results like this?

All interesting questions. For me I am not sure where I fall on it, I am a hobby rider but I have trained to GP so I do think there are different methods to get there.

Look forward to seeing the progression!

 

[milliepops]

Does the level of the 'wastage' make a difference? I do know that his stable 'wastage' (for want of a better term) is pretty high, while if one of mine was to be injured they would still stay with me.

Does his training style matter if it produces results like this?

All interesting questions. For me I am not sure where I fall on it, I am a hobby rider but I have trained to GP so I do think there are different methods to get there.

Look forward to seeing the progression!

it's interesting to think about but I'm not sure how to do so without ending up in the "I will never ride my horses again because it's fundamentally wrong" crater

I don't know how you can make training systems matter to competitive scores without some kind of behind the scenes element to the scores, which is sort of impossible to achieve. (obviously I am not saying that it's fine to have a system that uses hyperflexion etc). where Gal stands out from others with a similar training background, is that when he gets in front of a judge all you see is perfect poise and a lightness in his style and the horse has an open frame. So he clearly knows what to show in competition, and the horses understand how to go like that.

Given that the judging can only take place in the bubble of the test arena, i am not sure how you make anything else have any influence. (aware this may now go the same was as other recent threads, let's hope not! I'm not posting in defense of a status quo, i just can't see a practical alternative!)

eta. wastage pains me, I'm also a hobby rider that has to keep my current horses on the road as long as possible. but by making equestrian sports into professional things where there's a living to be made, and stud fees, and sponsors to be kept.. i don't know how you could find the next star performers without wastage. I think the ones that break along the way but are hugely talented will be treasured and every effort made to get and keep them right. but the nature of the game is that they won't all make it.

 

[shortstuff99]

it's interesting to think about but I'm not sure how to do so without ending up in the "I will never ride my horses again because it's fundamentally wrong" crater

I don't know how you can make training systems matter to competitive scores without some kind of behind the scenes element to the scores, which is sort of impossible to achieve. (obviously I am not saying that it's fine to have a system that uses hyperflexion etc). where Gal stands out from others with a similar training background, is that when he gets in front of a judge all you see is perfect poise and a lightness in his style and the horse has an open frame. So he clearly knows what to show in competition, and the horses understand how to go like that.

Given that the judging can only take place in the bubble of the test arena, i am not sure how you make anything else have any influence. (aware this may now go the same was as other recent threads, let's hope not! I'm not posting in defense of a status quo, i just can't see a practical alternative!)

eta. wastage pains me, I'm also a hobby rider that has to keep my current horses on the road as long as possible. but by making equestrian sports into professional things where there's a living to be made, and stud fees, and sponsors to be kept.. i don't know how you could find the next star performers without wastage. I think the ones that break along the way but are hugely talented will be treasured and every effort made to get and keep them right. but the nature of the game is that they won't all make it.

Yes you make good points. At least with them looking more open in the frame now it encourages others to ride that way which is a good thing!

You can get into a deep rabbit hole about horse sports and ethics so maybe I should steer away from that ?.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don’t think you will find that wastage at EG’s yard is much different to anywhere else .
These top dressage horses are not bred for long term soundness they are bred for extreme joint mobility , an uphill frame and a trainable mind .
They need to shine when young to get the best prices
Just like racehorses .

 

[milliepops]

You can get into a deep rabbit hole about horse sports and ethics so maybe I should steer away from that ?.

eeek. yes. big swerve!
in some ways I think the amateur has it easier in that you can adjust your expectations to your horse and not need the horse to meet yours. no pressure to achieve beyond what it's capable of because it's not your living that depends on it. though it's bloody tough if you are ambitious and don't have access to a pool of replacements.

and yes, while I hate to do the "look over there!" thing, racing is another sport that drags me back into that horrible rabbit hole.

 

[palo1]

I don't feel remotely qualified to comment but I really just want to say that I can't appreciate the finer points of EGs test riding (cos I don't know enough) and the horse in the video here does nothing for me at all; it looks faintly/a lot ridiculous in that degree of extravagance and hyper-mobility If I thought that this kind of dressage was aspirational I probably would never have another dressage/flat work lesson again!! Having said that I do see lots of dressage that I love and that is what keeps me interested

 

[ester]

rabbit holes you say, I just found the original version of the trot music I prefer the dressage version lol

 

[ycbm]

Specifically, I dislike the flashing tail and I'm unhappy about the large number of mis steps he makes in passage and piaffe with his right hind (as if he can't hold it on the left? ). I would give my last penny to ride as well as Gal.

Generally, it's everything I dislike about the circus freak show that Totilas turned international dressage into and I'm sad and disappointed to see it back again.
.

 

[Pippity]

He looks like a Tennessee Walking Horse at times, with the front legs being flung around like that while the hinds scuttle along. It's really not the sort of movement I enjoy watching.

 

[shortstuff99]

Specifically, I dislike the flashing tail and I'm unhappy about the large number of mis steps he makes in passage and piaffe with his right hind (as if he can't hold it on the left? ). I would give my last penny to ride as well as Gal.

Generally, it's everything I dislike about the circus freak show that Totilas turned international dressage into and I'm sad and disappointed to see it back again.
.

Unfortunately while it gets the big scores and earns the money it's what we are going to keep seeing! It's when you see what they look like as young horses that you realise how utterly manufactured it is.

 

[shortstuff99]

eeek. yes. big swerve!
in some ways I think the amateur has it easier in that you can adjust your expectations to your horse and not need the horse to meet yours. no pressure to achieve beyond what it's capable of because it's not your living that depends on it. though it's bloody tough if you are ambitious and don't have access to a pool of replacements.

and yes, while I hate to do the "look over there!" thing, racing is another sport that drags me back into that horrible rabbit hole.

Racing upsets me quite a lot and I have to steer clear of that topic!

I do think that when you are very invested in a horse as a pet or part of the family (like I do ?) then it is hard to think of them as commodities for earning money.

 

[milliepops]

It's when you see what they look like as young horses that you realise how utterly manufactured it is.

playing devils advocate... i think this is true of all advanced level horses.
I've manufactured a cadenced trot with my very unsporty welsh cob, it's sort of come as a spin off of teaching her to passage, we figured out we can put the cadence into normal trot and it's nothing like what she offers naturally.

I just watched a vid of CDJ and MSJ freestyle and Richard Davison was commentating, he mentioned during an extension that looks a lot like Toto Jr that the horses offer the flash in front because they can do it and they enjoy it. with hindlegs that ping off the ground like that in the passage I am a bit befuddled with the idea that there's nothing behind.

 

[ester]

I did like having MPs video link too as it made the LH issue a bit clearer.

 

[milliepops]

a further thought re manufacturing - i thought this was common knowledge tbh? or commonly accepted? Carl is often quoted as saying you should buy the walk and the canter, because the trot is the pace you can really influence and change.

 

[milliepops]

I did like having MPs video link too as it made the LH issue a bit clearer.

i guess i would not see a 9yo GP as the finished article and therefore some of this is not unexpected?

 

[scats]

Edward Gal is an incredible rider, I wish I could ride even half as well as he does!

I actually didn’t mind the test, but then again, I was one of the few people who liked Totilas (runs and hides...)

 

[ycbm]

i guess i would not see a 9yo GP as the finished article and therefore some of this is not unexpected?

The last line up the centre is horrible, though?

 

[milliepops]

I think at a champs its a case of go big or go home
Ambitious riders who have had a good test have to be prepared to take a risk. It won't always come off esp with a horse green at the level. This isn't the pinnacle of the horse's career, it's going to have mistakes.

 

[shortstuff99]

a further thought re manufacturing - i thought this was common knowledge tbh? or commonly accepted? Carl is often quoted as saying you should buy the walk and the canter, because the trot is the pace you can really influence and change.

I'm meaning manufactured in the sense of past what is sustainable for the horse and into freak show for flash. I know with training you improve the impulsion and collection and therefore the cadence improves but hopefully not to the extent of flash over correctness if that makes sense? So the hind leg should (as much as possible) match the front for angle and height, so for his extended his hind leg should be up near his belly somewhere but it's not as it's been trained to look so big in front that it can't match it behind.