Egg bars or barefoot for TB type feet???

ann-jen

ann-jen

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One of my horses has pretty poor feet. Typical low heels, long toe and flat soles. Her RF is also asymmetrical left to right as it flares slight to the outside. I've owned her for 6 months now and while the farrier has had concerns from day one she has remained sound until this week.
We've talked in the past re the pros and cons of her going barefoot and he worries that her feet are just so poor that pieces of the wall may break away and she just won't cope.
She went lame last week following shoeing on the dodgy RF. Very subtle, an is she or isn't she sort of lameness. We assumed she had a slight nail bind and so my farrier removed all her nails one by one and she did wince when he pulled the inner nail over her heel area. He was reluctant to leave her shoes off at this stage in case he couldn't get them back on again so just left that nail out and replaced it further forward.
Since then she has been sound one day and subtly lame the next. But last night was obviously lame again on the same foot. In my opinion there is slight heat over the inner heel bulb. She does not react in the slightest to hoof testers being used anywhere on her foot, nor does she have any other signs of heat or swelling higher up the limb.
The farrier removed both her front shoes last night and I am to see if she goes sound over the next couple of days with a view to either.... 1. reshoeing her same as before..... 2. removing her hind shoes and trying her barefoot all round.... or 3. I wondered if a bar shoe to support her heel might help.
If she isn't sound, I'm still convinced the heel area is the source of her lameness, so I will get the vet out to nerve block her foot and see.... but then think realistically I'm still back to the 3 options in terms of her long term foot care.
My gut feeling is she should go barefoot, possibly with boots for hacking????
She is currently fed, grass/haylage/happy hoof/general vitamin and mineral supplement and farriers formula.
Any comments or experiences welcome!
 
Sounds just like my TB who was diagnosed with navicular! We tried the eggbars and initially they worked well, but after six months he became sore after shoeing, which looked like nailbind and his feet looked terrible!
I decided to go barefoot, which was not easy choice and we have had a lot of ups and downs, but he has grown some decent feet and I ride him in boots!:)
 
Could there be an abscess brewing if she has recently gone slightly lame? Heel bulb in particular sounds suspect for this.

Long term I would not be thinking about shoes of any kind but then I am pro-shoeless. Boots are a very good option if she has any issues; no reason you can't ride in them permanently if necessary. Growing a little flare on one side shows she is compensating higher up - one of mine has a tiny inside wedge; barely noticeable. The farrier works with it rather than trying to "treat" it though and she remains sound like this.

I always smile to myself when people comment on how "lucky" I am to have horses who don't need shoes. Funny that! Nothing to do with luck and everything to do with diet.
 
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Do you have a reliable history for her and has she ever had any lameness before ? Your farrier sounds very good but I'd take action straight away otherwise the stress on her limbs will cause recurring problems. Get the vet out and have her thoroughly assessed.
My experience may not be of use to your situation and there are some people on here who can give great advice, but I'll share anyway.
After 4 years of trying to get my horse correctly balanced we've come to the end of the line. I kept shoes on for two years and lameness was recurrent. We just couldn't get the balance right in shoes, she had a medial lateral imbalance but improved once the shoes came off. However, the damage to the collateral ligament was done and although she did really well without shoes, when we upped her work, the lameness returned and she was retired.
Looking back, I would have been braver and would have got the shoes off at the beginning, which was against the advice the vets gave. Who knows what the outcome would have been but I can say that despite being a TB X WB she was much happier without shoes and able to wear her feet the way she needed to.
 
Go barefoot, but do it properly. So you need a supportive hoof care professional, low sugar/high fibre diet with BF friendly vits&mins (forage plus or Pro hoof/pro balance), hoof boots if needed and the horse needs to move around on surfaces that are comfortable on (maybe walking out on smooth tarmac or school surface, slowly building up the distance).
 
Worth a read if you haven't already:)

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=Bar+shoes

Also the most recent post about Peter is interesting and relevant.

FWIW I have two happy barefoot TB's. One took a bit of time and effort , and boots, to rehab out of shoes, the other is 9 and has never been shod -he self trims and has amazing feet.

As pines says, barefoot isn't the easy option initially, but worth it in the long run. Both mine are very low maintenance hoof wise now. ( apart from expensive minerals, but still cheaper and easier than shoes!)
 
Thanks for all the replies. I will try and take some pics of her feet when I finish work if anyone is interested!
We are sure there is no abscess. In the time scale since shoeing she just isn't lame enough and doesn't react to hoof testers in any point of her foot, including where the dodgy nail was and the slight heat. I was really hoping it was in a weird way!
My farrier has been very supportive and helpful every step of the way with this horse and will hopefully continue to be. I am also lucky enough to have a friend who is a barefoot trimmer (who has association with the Rockley people). I'm torn as to who to go to. Ive used my current farrier for a lot of years and he is kind, knowledgeable, helpful and provides a fantastic service so am reluctant to change to anyone else.... while at the same time have this friend who deals with horses like this on a regular basis (although Im sure my farrier does too!) I tend to think I should stick with my farrier unless there is good reason to change and at the moment cant think of any reason to.
 
Personally I wouldn't fanny about with remedial shoeing or rubbish like that, go straight for barefoot. As others have said, make sure you get the basics right if you want it to work, I'm sure you will if your friend is a trimmer. As far as your farrier goes, he could broaden his skill base and train up to be a barefoot trimmer as well, lots do. I put my horses welfare first and the farriers second, farrier has a choice, horse doesn't
 
I took my TB BF for a year and he now spends time shod and barefoot so he gets regular periods working without shoes .
I have no hesitation in saying do your research before hand re diet , how to provide movement etc etc but take his shoes off , it transformed my horses life, it probally saved his life .
 
Pics would be great if you can get them, there's a lot to tell from pictures.

I have 4 Tb's, all now barefoot due to the 'long toes, flat feet' issues that seem to popular in the TB. When trying to decide what to do to 'fix' them I found that eggbar and remedial shoeing really didn't make a massive improvement long term for the majority of horses, this was backed up by my vet who told me the only way to heal feet was to take shoes off. I sorted out their diet, got them on a good balancer, took them barefoot one by one with the help of a good trimmer and they now all have great feet. I haven't reshod any of them, I haven't needed too as they are all sound (3 in work inc hacking, jumping, xc etc) and doing great 2 years down the line.

My local farriers were useless. The initial issues with the feet were due to my farriers poor work and when I contacted other farriers they all wanted to fit wedges and pads at huge expense, blamed my horses for just having typical TB feet and told me they would never cope without shoes. The thing that got me thinking was that none of mine were shod behind, and a couple of them I had owned for over 5 years like this, and they had lovely back feet that self trimmed and were super healthy (I fed a high fibre diet anyway) so why couldn't they go bare infront too? Turns out they could, they are sound and happy, move better and I'm happy I did the right thing for them.

I did find it a big change to go barefoot, theres a lot to learn re diet, movement etc, but thoroughly worth it! One thing though - Happy Hoof that you're feeding is commonly refered too as Cr*ppy Hoof as it's not actually that good for feet, so if you do go barefoot you might want to think about changing that :)

I can give you links to a folder of hoof pics for one of my guys if you are interested? It shows the progression from poorly, flat, horrible feet to happy, sound bare feet over the course of 10 months or so....
 
My horse had a spell in egg bars and although I don't think they harmed him they didn't really do much either. They were just papering over the cracks and the under lying issues with his dreadful feet needed sorting.

god if I knew then what I knew know I would have gone straight to unshod but for some reason I daren't as I never thought he would manage and he has.
 
Am hoping I can remember how to use photobucket links.....
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Just out of interest, why are people averse to farriers managing horses feet unshod? My farrier is great, and obviously trained hard to get his qualification and also gone on to train re remedial shoeing as well. He shoes and also manages unshod horses too. What benefit would there be to go to a trimmer instead? As he has given an exemplary service over the years, has been helpful and informative re Dee's feet from day one I can't see any benefit to change unless someone can explain why??
Id also like to say that the pics of her feet are after 6 months of care and looked considerably worse when I got her and do feel he's gone to great lengths to help me with her. And will continue to do so once her shoes are off.

Another question on a slightly different subject..... I think his main concern is, if we remove the shoes, is that chunks of wall may break away and if she doesn't cope we may not get shoes back on..... But presumably this is where hoof boots come in??? So if I ride her initially in boots while her hooves adapt and then try to phase them out???
Also could anyone recommend a good boot to try. I'm concerned mainly about them rubbing and general fit.
 
Not adverse at all. I use a Farrier for my three BF/unshod horses, but I wouldn't use any old farrier. Their training doesn't cover working unshod hooves, so you need a farrier who is interested in it. If you don't have a pro BF farrier in your area, a trimmer is a much better choice.
 
Well my farrier let slip last night that of the 9 horses of his own, 2 are shod in front and the rest are unshod lol.... He says he thinks unshod is always the best option if they can manage so I wouldn't say he's averse .... And he manages a few others unshod at my yard.
Moving on to yet another question.....
It would seem that the diet is quite key ..... My trimmer friend has suggested I change the farriers formula to pro-earth supplement and the reasons why which I understand. Someone has said the happy hoof isn't ideal..... It's the standard food included in the livery at our yard hence why she's on it. Anything other than that or spillers cool mix I would have to fund myself. So based on the diet I mentioned earlier.... Grass/haylage/happy hoof/general vitamin and mineral supplement/farriers formula what desperately would need to change without costing me an arm and a leg on top of the livery lol. Is this a truly bad diet? She has lots of natural energy and condition and so doesn't really need a great deal in the way of hard feed other than a route to get her supplements in!
 
Would your yard be OK with Spillers high fibre cubes/nuts? They tend to be OK with BF horses. Pro hoof is better than FF. Molasses free sugar beet (eg speedi beet), oats, molasses free chaff (might need to also be alfalfa free, depending on whether your horse is sensitive to it or not) and micronised linseed are also safe BF feeds.

I've not fed haylage, but others have mentioned their horses doing better on hay.

RE hoof boots, I have been looking at Renegades for ages and keep pondering about buying my chestnut mare a pair as we have one really stony ride that I don't do with her, but if she had boots I could do it again.
 
Anybody any comments on the pics? They actually look considerably better than the pics in the Facebook link someone kindly posted which made me feel a bit better!!!
 
Hi OP. Have you considered getting your horse's feet x-rayed to see if there is anything going on inside? Your horse sounds like my navicular TB. I took her barefoot and never looked back. I feed Spillers high fibre cubes, pro balance (same as Pro Hoof makers), and salt with adlib hay. I do use hoof boots if she ever feels footy, which to be honest only ever seems to happy at this time of year! She is absolutely fine in summer on the grass! I use the Cavallo Simple boots which have been fab for me - suited for a rounder hoof. The Cavallo sports are more suitable for an oval hoof. Good luck - it isn't easy, but it is well worth it.
 
Thank you, yes. Am calling the vet tomorrow to hopefully nerve block her foot and then go from there if it confirms what I suspect that the lameness originates from the heel of her foot.
 
ann-jen said:
Just out of interest, why are people averse to farriers managing horses feet unshod?
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One of the reasons, you have identified for yourself:

his main concern is, if we remove the shoes, is that chunks of wall may break away and if she doesn't cope we may not get shoes back on....
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If he knew enough about barefoot he would not be making comments like that.
 
I don't see that as an unreasonable comment. She has cracks and bits missing from her feet already which makes it a bit of a nightmare to nail shoes on. The bottom part of her hoof will surely be weaker from the pre existing nail holes and so I would imagine it would be easier for the cracks etc to deteriorate without shoes and make re shoeing harder???
 
ann-jen said:
Anybody any comments on the pics? They actually look considerably better than the pics in the Facebook link someone kindly posted which made me feel a bit better!!!
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They're not disastrous no - the usual under run heels and too long toes. A generally weak hoof structure with contracted heels and flat soles. The horn quality isn't anywhere near as bad as I was expecting!

Horsey needs to show you what feet she wants to grow. Tell farrier to leave those frogs alone, given the circumstances they look surprisingly decent. Keep an eye on the central sulcus, it looks quite deep from those pics.

Diet is part of the key, but I'm a true believer that (metabolic issues aside) work plays a more considerable part. You'll need at least a year for an entire new hoof capsule to grow and develop.

Please take lots of pics of all the progress :)
 
nikkimariet said:
They're not disastrous no - the usual under run heels and too long toes. A generally weak hoof structure with contracted heels and flat soles. The horn quality isn't anywhere near as bad as I was expecting!

Horsey needs to show you what feet she wants to grow. Tell farrier to leave those frogs alone, given the circumstances they look surprisingly decent. Keep an eye on the central sulcus, it looks quite deep from those pics.

Diet is part of the key, but I'm a true believer that (metabolic issues aside) work plays a more considerable part. You'll need at least a year for an entire new hoof capsule to grow and develop.

Please take lots of pics of all the progress :)
Click to expand...

Was waiting for someone else to comment first coz I'm a chicken! I'm fairly new to barefoot and would defo agree to take regular pictures as you would see changes quickly if you keep shoes off. Think your starting point isn't too bad, frog needs to be beefier and heels need to decontraction but that will come. In responds to your cracking q above....it's kind of a product of the foot rebalancing. Both of mine have only craked and flaked up to nail line and has been very useful to shorten toe and make foot a much better shape. One of mine had longish toes and now 4 week later I could still get a shoe on if I wanted despite the cracking (I don't want tho! :-))

Nikkie mariet, is there any reason in particular you don't shoe yours?
 
I had my girl's shoes off over a year ago and can't recommend it highly enough. She is trimmed by my farrier who is very supportive and very good. I have cavallo simple boots which at first she wore on all four every time she left the stable but currently only wears for stony hacks or if I do more more hacking than usual. She even hunts barefoot. Wouldn't go back to shoes now.
 
Nikkimariet Thanks very much for that. A very accurate assessment I'd say! Farrier has pics from when he shod her the first time and they are considerably better than they were. Work wise it try to keep it as varied as possible although at this time of the year she's in the arena more than I'd like. In the summer I'd say she hacks twice a week, 1 day off and the remaining days either flat schooling or jumping. At the moment it's more like 1 hack a week and a lot of flatwork. And depends whether I'm competing at the weekend or not (obviously not at the moment :-(... )
 
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And do people find any difference to movement from a dressage perspective or jumping using boots? I imagine they have to get used to wearing them a bit? We have a waxed surface in both the indoor and outdoor arena which rides very firm so not sure if she'd need boots on even in the arena initially. Have to say even tho she has v flat soles she never feels footy on some of our stony paths although I appreciate this may change unshod.
 
Mine certainly moves better bare than she did in shoes.

I have jumped in boots and so has a friend but it isn't ideal. I would leave jumping until sound bare on a surface and just jump on comfortable surfaces. Boots don't grip too well on grass so I wouldn't jump seriously on grass in boots. This is easily outweighed by being able to hack on frosty roads without slipping.

You should find yours is ok bare in the school pretty quickly if not straight away. Mine was lame in shoes so took a bit longer. Look at the EPS pads to put in your boots at first too.
 
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