Electric collar ban

[Moobli]

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An electric collar is not a tool I use. However, I don’t agree with a blanket ban. Why not licence the tool so only professional trainers can use them for specific training problems such as livestock worrying. What will be next? Pinch collars, slip leads, dogs off lead in public areas, dogs only walked off lead in enclosed “freedom fields” … where does it end?

 

[TPO]

"Sheep will die" is a nonsensical argument. Idiots need to keep their dogs on leads!

I'd fully support idiot owners having to wear e collars as part of their training

 

[Clodagh]

Tbh with or without electric collars badly behaved dogs seem to be going through the roof already. I’ve never seen one used well, only by people who shouldn’t even be able to own a lead, let alone a dog.
I’ve not used one but I imagine the times they can actually properly replace fair, consistent, timely and experienced training is negligible.

 

[Clodagh]

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An electric collar is not a tool I use. However, I don’t agree with a blanket ban. Why not licence the tool so only professional trainers can use them for specific training problems such as livestock worrying. What will be next? Pinch collars, slip leads, dogs off lead in public areas, dogs only walked off lead in enclosed “freedom fields” … where does it end?

One of the people I saw using one was a professional, qualified and licensed trainer. He was also a psychopath.

 

[moosea]

oh no they banned people from electrocuting their out of control dogs ....

 

[Tiddlypom]

Never used an electric collar, but the late JRT trained himself not to chase sheep (the little toe rag) by getting a perfectly timed zap off the electric sheep fence when he'd gone deaf lugs and raced up to our winter visitors in our hay field.

He never attempted to go near sheep again.

I couldn't have timed it better if I'd tried. He presumed that sheep were electrified after that.

 

[Clodagh]

I think your key sentence is the perfect timing.
Although I suppose proficient clicker trainers are also spot on, and possibly just my inexperience is showing.

 

[Jenko109]

I've used one on a livestock worrier with complete success.

The dog was walked on a long line around livestock and was perfect. Showed no interest at all. The moment she was off lead, she would rush up and bark etc.

She got shocked on a low setting twice if I remember rightly. That was it.

The dog has never bothered livestock since and is ten now.

I think they are a very useful bit of kit in the right circumstances.

 

[AmyMay]

I can see no reason for their use.

 

[Clodagh]

I think they are a very useful bit of kit in the right circumstances.

I agree, really, but I think the number of people who could use them properly and in a timely manner are so few and far between.

 

[Jenko109]

I agree, really, but I think the number of people who could use them properly and in a timely manner are so few and far between.

Well that's the problem isnt it.

People think they will be an easy fix for a dog with reactivity or fear aggression. The reality being that to cause discomfort to a dog who is simply voicing his discomfort/fear is never going to really work. It may make the behaviour disappear, but it will not stop the dog being uncomfortable/fearful.

I dont agree with outright banning. I would welcome there being some sort of course, even if it was expensive, that would provide you a license to use one only if you were deemed competent. That was never going to happen though, of course.

 

[millikins]

Never used an electric collar, but the late JRT trained himself not to chase sheep (the little toe rag) by getting a perfectly timed zap off the electric sheep fence when he'd gone deaf lugs and raced up to our winter visitors in our hay field.

He never attempted to go near sheep again.

I couldn't have timed it better if I'd tried. He presumed that sheep were electrified after that.

One of mine did the same. We unexpectedly came across sheep on a walk, I'd not had her long and we hadn't met any to that point. She was about to set off when she met the fence first, absolutely perfect timing and she remained convinced to the end of her days that sheep could bite from several feet away.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't agree with an outright ban of a tool that can be used well or badly, but it's been in the post for a long time and has been happening across Europe.

 

[rabatsa]

How does this affect their use for invisible fencing? Would the cattle that are kept this way also have to have their collars removed?

 

[MurphysMinder]

I have seen them used correctly and don’t have a problem with them . My concern as already stated is what will be next . I am in a Gsd fb group where slip leads , large link chains and even half checks are seen as the work of the devil . Same group is an also full of people stressing cos they can’t walk their dogs in public as they have zero control .

 

[Moobli]

I have seen them used correctly and don’t have a problem with them . My concern as already stated is what will be next . I am in a Gsd fb group where slip leads , large link chains and even half checks are seen as the work of the devil . Same group is an also full of people stressing cos they can’t walk their dogs in public as they have zero control .

And using head collars which many dogs dislike and find aversive.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Someone, somewhere, listen to an Ivan Balabanov podcast.

 

[IrishMilo]

I'm more adverse to slip leads than E collars. I really hate seeing dogs be strangled and wish people knew more about the physical implications of letting their dog pull by the throat.

 

[twiggy2]

I used an ecollar on my last lurcher as she would actively hunt cats at the yard I worked on for 3 for 4 hrs each morning, she would come to work with me and be free to roam the whole time I was there, one of the fields was half a mile from the yard and she could be loose the smile time I was at the yard, some days there would be around 8 to 10 dogs there all playing nicely so being Abe to come with me and be off lead was of huge benefit to my dog.
She wore it for about 4 months or so before the perfect moment arise to use it, she didn't hunt the cats anymore, was still interested but would not touch them.
The chances are the person who uses an ecollar poorly will use others things poorly too and the dog will suffer another way.
Personally I would live to see haltis and other headcollars banned alongside the side pull harnesses, they dog so much damage to the dog physically with the constant side pulling they can cause abnornal body development, later life arthritis and other issues

 

[Boulty]

Will admit that I do see a specific use for them in cases of livestock chasing where just having the dog on a lead around livestock isn’t an option (or in cases such as twiggy describes) when used properly and with good timing as the dog should then hopefully see the aversive as having been caused by proximity to the thing it would be dangerous to chase rather than being anything to do with their owner. I do NOT think they are appropriate for use in reactivity/ aggression towards other dogs, people etc in the way that some trainers use them as surely that’s just pouring fuel on the fire? I can see why it may have been felt it was easier to ban them than to regulate their use.

 

[Morwenna]

Someone, somewhere, listen to an Ivan Balabanov podcast.

That was my reaction to this!

 

[TPO]

Or we could ask Caesar Milan about e-collars (& his brand partnership)?

Being a "famous" trainer who can advertise "results" online applies to a wide range of people across the whole spectrum of awful to good.

I've known a tonne of people throughout my life winning at top level working trials, field trials and sheep dog trials who've also taken on problematic dogs and never had to resort to an e collar. I sadly also know people who have used them with horrific effects. I can't remember their names because it was nearly 30yrs ago but I spent time around people competing at top level obedience and again no collars. A couple of police dog trainers were family friends and competed in working trials, wouldn't touch an e collar.

I'm not buying that an e collar should be available to anyone who wants to call themselves a trainer never mind Joe Public (along with prong collars)

 

[Kunoichi73]

Someone, somewhere, listen to an Ivan Balabanov podcast.

Thank you for this recommendation - subscribed.

 

[ycbm]

I'm never sure that I understand disapproval of shock collars by anyone who is happy to shock horses.

 

[Morwenna]

Thank you for this recommendation - subscribed.

The one with Susan Garrett is interesting as he touches on the ban in Europe and the consequences of it.

I think in the right hands they can be an extremely effective tool but they are not a quick fix. I know one person who uses them extremely responsibly under the guidance of a very good trainer. I wouldn’t use one personally as I don’t have the skill and my situation doesn’t require it. Most things we use can be cruel in the wrong hands or used inappropriately - including standard collars and slip leads. I do occasionally use a head collar - only in a few very specific circumstances where my dog forgets her lead walking training and it is not safe or appropriate to train her in that moment. I think for her it’s a lot kinder than strangling herself in a harness. She doesn’t pull at all in the head collar so it never really comes into play but she knows it’s there and she respects it.

 

[TPO]

So the argument for keeping e collars is that it's a lesser evil than other "training aids" used to inflict pain

So the kind of people who abuse e collars are better being allowed to do so than transfer their torture and "quick fixes" to other methods.

 

[IrishMilo]

So the argument for keeping e collars is that it's a lesser evil than other "training aids" used to inflict pain

So the kind of people who abuse e collars are better being allowed to do so than transfer their torture and "quick fixes" to other methods.

Not really - it's more just that I'd expect everyone who's against shock collars to be against slip leads too given their very purpose is to choke the dog into submitting. But yet they're extremely common and advocated for by a vast number of people - 'normal' and professionals - when I'd argue choke leads are far, far more detrimental to the health than shock collars. Throat cancer, cervical and spinal issues, eye and brain damage, etc.

I'm not saying one makes the other acceptable or unacceptable, but horses for courses and all that.

 

[Denali]

I’ve used an e-collar once and that was for a wolf hybrid. It’s not hard to keep dogs on a leash that have shaky or zero recall.

That being said I don’t agree with a blanket ban for anything.

 

[Jenko109]

Not really - it's more just that I'd expect everyone who's against shock collars to be against slip leads too given their very purpose is to choke the dog into submitting.

I would not want slip leads banned BUT I had no idea that was what they were designed for?

I use a slip lead on my lurcher sometimes. She walks perfectly to heel so it's just quick and easy to slip on.

I have also used one while assisting with a petrified rescue. Although of course not ideal to choke a panicked dog, for safety sake in an emergency, they are useful.

 

[Sandstone1]

I do not like slip leads or pinch collars but its like strong bits etc. Its the person on the other end off the lead or bridle thats the real problem. I do not like shock collars. I do get that for serious livestock chasers they may have a use but its the skill of the person handling the dog thats the question.