Employers liability insurance for groom/handyman

[Aspire]

I have something of a challenge at the moment. My OH is due for surgery and will be out of action for some time. I struggle to with my own health issues to manage my three without his physical support and mowing the lawns is definitely outside my scope, so we were looking to employ some part time help. Simple enough you would think. The self employed person is out of the equation since a recent legal case devined that regular hours for an individual at one place of employment is deemed employment, not self employment. My house, outbuildings, stables, machinery and horses are all covered by NFU, however their employers liability on the house and outbuildings cover only applies to nanny, cleaner, gardener, not groom. I checked.
My coaching insurance is with KBIS, that offers employers liability too, but they said that was geared towards a coach support in arena etc, again not a groom/ stable hand. Both offered me yard business insurance. However, my yard is private and has my three horses only. If I take out business insurance then I could then be liable for business rates. The potential costs are spiralling well away from what I can afford. Does anyone else have any experience or suggestions please?

 

[Orangehorse]

If your help is only going to be part time then surely you could get a self employed person? If you are not their only employer and they come and do the job (and maybe use their own tools?) then I can't see that they would be your employee. The case you are referring to was when the person was only working for the one employer.

Many Parish Councils employ self-employed maintenance workers.

I would go back to the NFU and have another discussion, I can't think that you are unique and wanting to have part time help.

 

[benz]

British grooms association might be able to advise? I know they do (did?) insurance for grooms.

If it will only be temporary you might be able to use a freelancer without worrying especially if they dont have set hours etc.

 

[Shay]

The definition of employment is a bit more complex than that - PM me if you want a legal essay. But one route around that is to ensure that whoever you bring in has their own insurance. BHS Gold is sufficient in some circumstances - and not in others. BGA - as already mentioned has a good freelance grooms insurance.

 

[Aspire]

The young man we were looking to employ has some learning difficulties, but is willing, cheerful and will be supervised. I doubt becoming self employed would be a possibility. He was on a scheme but got fed up of working a 40 hour week for £50 when his peers were classed as apprentices and were getting £114 a week for doing the same job. I need between 2-4 hours help, 5 days a week. He has acquired some basic equine qualifications on the scheme and is quiet and kind to the horses. I struggle with wheelbarrows up the muck trailer ramp, emptying paddock cleaner, mowing lawns etc. Pretty simple tasks which he can do well at his own pace. He likes to hack and my older mare would be fine for him to accompany me on a hack. Seems ridiculous to think that a young man who wants to work, but would probably fall through the cracks of society or possibly be taken advantage of and overworked elsewhere, can't be accommodated where his efforts would be both paid for and appreciated for 2-4 hours Monday-Friday. I was told that provided the wage did not exceed £112 a week he would be NI exempt, bit would need to check that too.

 

[Shay]

Watch out for the national minimum wage too - 20 hours per week at a salary below £112 works out at max £5.60 an hour which is OK if he is aged 18 - 20; but too low once he gets to 21.

You could perhaps pay for BHS Gold membership for him? (Or any of the other routes to get liability insurance?) Check their small print though to ensure that his circumstances would be covered.

 

[popsdosh]

For many reasons the NI exemption has been around 16 hours at the minimum wage and my guess is it will be increased in the budget to keep it in line.

 

[honetpot]

I have smallholders insurance which cover me for 16 hours a week, for paid help. I am surprised NFU will not offer you some cover there must be lots of small farms that only have one or two employees.
I have chickened out and employ someone who is self employed and have their own insurance. Is it worth looking into that for him ,so he could also do work for others as well?

 

[popsdosh]

I have smallholders insurance which cover me for 16 hours a week, for paid help. I am surprised NFU will not offer you some cover there must be lots of small farms that only have one or two employees.
I have chickened out and employ someone who is self employed and have their own insurance. Is it worth looking into that for him ,so he could also do work for others as well?

Be careful them having insurance does not stop your liability should anything happen to them ,their insurers will be on you like a rash!

 

[honetpot]

Be careful them having insurance does not stop your liability should anything happen to them ,their insurers will be on you like a rash!

I have employers liability insurance, which covers up to sixteen hours a week as part of my smallholders policy.

 

[Orangehorse]

I thought the NFU would be able to come up with something OP.

 

[JillA]

Sorry, don't mean to hijack, but is EL compulsory and if so what are the penalties? Friend has long term slight injuries sustained when employed by a fairly well known national figure and whenever he has asked she denies having any insurance. What is the procedure, does anyone know? First claim off her and then.......(she has no real capital assets)

 

[sywell]

When I was asked to take a work experience student the college wanted third party liability insurance as they unpaid, I discovered that no one would give me less than 12 months insurance. Aviva said my household insurance would cover her but not for riding.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have cover from the NFU to cover my free lance grooms housekeepers gardeners basically everyone that tends to help with a country house with land it's not full employers liability that you would have with a buisness .

 

[jsprince]

I have an NfU farm select policy that covers barn, land, tack and has an employees insurance section.

 

[paddy555]

OP, I have the NFU home and lifestyle ins and horses but only in a private capacity, no business. My policy says
"employees" a person working for you in a DOMESTIC capacity

if goes on to define DOMESTIC as relating to the private activities of you or your family.

I guess you may well have the same policy so if your horses are domestic I don't see why it isn't covered.

our policy document in the liability section talks around what is not insured "owning land or buildings other than for grazing, stabling or riding horses for DOMESTIC purposes. In that section it clearly included domestic horses and I discussed our horses with them in great detail.

I would go back to NFU and ask for clarification and what insurance precisely they would need you to take out. I am considering employing someone at some stage so I am interested in exactly what insurance is required.

On the employment side I am afraid this is without doubt employment based on what you have described. Many of these free lance groom arrangements are, I would suspect, in fact employees rather than self employed. Many would not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Orangehorse]

Sorry, don't mean to hijack, but is EL compulsory and if so what are the penalties? Friend has long term slight injuries sustained when employed by a fairly well known national figure and whenever he has asked she denies having any insurance. What is the procedure, does anyone know? First claim off her and then.......(she has no real capital assets)

Well I think your friend needs to send a solicitor's letter. The thing about Employer's insurance is that most employers are well worth sueing and with settlements of £millions for serious injuries it is too scarey not to have any. I have heard of people being sued, having £5 million insurance and the settlement being over that, so the court orders them to find the money. Of course if you really have NO money then you are not worth sueing.

AS for the legalities, I'm not sure. I don't know if it is like car insurance when it is an offence not to have insurance. Which is in place to protect the public if they are injured by a car driver.

 

[Dry Rot]

It was my understanding that you need Employers Liability Insurance even for unpaid volunteers....is that correct? I've always bitten the bullet, got it, and displayed the certificate even though my volunteering helpers are unpaid, occasional, and definitely flexi-hours.

https://www.gov.uk/employers-liability-insurance

 

[paddy555]

It was my understanding that you need Employers Liability Insurance even for unpaid volunteers....is that correct? I've always bitten the bullet, got it, and displayed the certificate even though my volunteering helpers are unpaid, occasional, and definitely flexi-hours.

https://www.gov.uk/employers-liability-insurance

I don't know but obviously you would need some insurance to cover the helpers. Which company did you get your EL insurance from?

 

[Goldenstar]

It was my understanding that you need Employers Liability Insurance even for unpaid volunteers....is that correct? I've always bitten the bullet, got it, and displayed the certificate even though my volunteering helpers are unpaid, occasional, and definitely flexi-hours.

https://www.gov.uk/employers-liability-insurance

I think that's correct if the activity is or could be seen as a business .
I know that if you work experiance people from a school or college they require full employers liability which gives me a great excuse not to have any.