EMS - Equine Metabolic Syndrome AND Grass Glands

[SpanishNeddy]

Does anyone know if a horse gets Grass Glands whether they would be more susceptible to EMS?

My PRE gelding has been in the UK for 3 years now. I gelded him to he could have a nice life with company, but he gets grass glands and mud feaver in winter LOL anyway, I have only ever turned him out for 6 hours max but usually half a day average. When he is in, his grass glands go down and he is fine.

The horses at the yard have started night turnout, so I have agreed to try him over night. He has now been doing night turnout for 2-3 weeks. Going out at roughly 7.30pm and coming in at about 7.30am. To start with his grass glands were the same as if he had been going out for half a day, but now it is a bit better.

He has become VERY much not himself. He is hugely lethargic, pretty much looks away with the fairies most of the time at the moment.

This horse is usually VERY VERY hot to ride, so much so I do not and will not ride him anymore. But his rider can not believe how quiet and lazy he is being to ride. Also to lunge, usually I do not need a whip, he goes straight off voice. At the moment I can barely get a canter out of him chasing him with a whip!!!!

Last night he seemed really down and when I turned him out I was actually worried about him as he wondered around not eating and just standing very oddly. I stood and watched him for 5 mins then he did put his head down and graze. When I got him in this morning he was again quiet and really is not himself. He did eat his (very small) breakfast ok and started on his (very small) haynet ok though.

Does anyone know if a horse gets grass glands whether they are more at risk to EMS/Lami??

He is over weight at the moment so he is on a diet. He has lost weight since he started going out over night (there is not much grass!). I know turnout is the one thing that you should stop to help a diet, but without going into too much detail he is better off out than in and seeing as he has lost weight since going out I do not want to stop this.

I am really worried about him as he is usually a very chirpy friendly boy and is just not himself at the moment. I know him well as I am mum and I know something is not quite right.

Anybody have any advice?

 

[Goldenstar]

Have you taken his temperature ?

 

[SpanishNeddy]

Have you taken his temperature ?

No! very silly of me I must say. I will do. What are you thinking?

 

[Goldenstar]

Well if one of mine is down or different that's what I do if ithe temperature is not normal you know something is not right virus , infection something.
Have you considered that he's just calmer with this type of management and less hyped up.
However never ignore these symptoms, have his droppings gone harder for instance that needs watching particularily at his time of year.

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

Tbh what you have described sounds like a sick horse. If he was mine I think I'd start by going back to his previous regime. If that doesn't perk him up, I'd get quite concerned.

 

[Goldenstar]

SN how long is it since he was cut?

 

[puss]

I have eleven pres they all seem to suffer with it bad all mine look like their been beaten up swellings all over their faces. And all of them can not have too much sugar gave some some sugarbeet for winter big mistake couldn't sit on any of them gone completey mad. so all have no sugar molasses chaff and that's it

 

[SpanishNeddy]

Well if one of mine is down or different that's what I do if ithe temperature is not normal you know something is not right virus , infection something.
Have you considered that he's just calmer with this type of management and less hyped up.
However never ignore these symptoms, have his droppings gone harder for instance that needs watching particularily at his time of year.

Well that is why I didnt let it worry me for first few weeks, because people were saying to me that often when they go out over night they get quite knackered adjusting to it. However, he was not like he is now. He is defo much more quieter and just looks spaced out if that makes sense.

I am quite a worrier type of person anyway, so nobody else noticed it (but I am DIY). But he does not seem right. He is usually a very quirky chap which you do NOT need to yell at to canter (much more the opposite!).

His droppings I will examine them tonight - can't say I noticed any change but I will check. He did however not drink anything yesterday during the day, I noticed that (he does have water access in field though).

 

[SpanishNeddy]

SN how long is it since he was cut?

3 years - I cut him straight after import.

 

[SpanishNeddy]

I have eleven pres they all seem to suffer with it bad all mine look like their been beaten up swellings all over their faces. And all of them can not have too much sugar gave some some sugarbeet for winter big mistake couldn't sit on any of them gone completey mad. so all have no sugar molasses chaff and that's it

He usually goes the opposite, turnout does chill him out BUT he is not an excitable horse to ride at all feed usually doesnt affect him in this way (apart from grass glands). Before this turnout started he has been in stable for aggggges....about 4 months maybe more because yard land was ruined by our terrible weather. So he has only started going out few weeks ago. For first few days I turned him out for limited time, then increased it (unlike all the others!)....but my one seems to be the one that has the issue eh

 

[CBFan]

It could be Low grade lami... lethargy, awkward stance, 'spaced out' appearance and groaning when moving are all early signs....My boy went like this last year after just 36 hours out at pasture. I'd be tempted to keep him in completely for at least 48 hours, give him a couple of bute a day and see if this makes any difference and then, if you do want to keep him out over night, muzzle him at least every other night. This is how I now manage my boy and he is fine.

Note that after this recent rain, the grass is having a MEGA spurt so it's going to be pretty lethal.

Does your boy have any fatty bits? a crest?

 

[SpanishNeddy]

It could be Low grade lami... lethargy, awkward stance, 'spaced out' appearance and groaning when moving are all early signs....My boy went like this last year after just 36 hours out at pasture. I'd be tempted to keep him in completely for at least 48 hours, give him a couple of bute a day and see if this makes any difference and then, if you do want to keep him out over night, muzzle him at least every other night. This is how I now manage my boy and he is fine.

Note that after this recent rain, the grass is having a MEGA spurt so it's going to be pretty lethal.

Does your boy have any fatty bits? a crest?

Ok thank you for that. I am worried now
My vet did his booster jab the other day and I asked him to confirm he was too fat (not that I needed confirmation tbh LOL!).

Yes he is cresty - but he was cut late and has always had a big neck to be honest.

He stood a bit funny putting his hinds under him, which I believe is a lami thing isnt it? was just odd. Usually when you first let him in field he actively trots off and straight away eats. But he didn't he just slowly walked around not eating. Very odd seeing as he had been in all day with a small haynet, he would usually be straight at any food.

 

[CBFan]

Ok thank you for that. I am worried now
My vet did his booster jab the other day and I asked him to confirm he was too fat (not that I needed confirmation tbh LOL!).

Yes he is cresty - but he was cut late and has always had a big neck to be honest.

He stood a bit funny putting his hinds under him, which I believe is a lami thing isnt it? was just odd. Usually when you first let him in field he actively trots off and straight away eats. But he didn't he just slowly walked around not eating. Very odd seeing as he had been in all day with a small haynet, he would usually be straight at any food.

Don't be too worried, sounds like you've caught it early but DO keep him in. Given what you have just said, I would keep him in for a week. SOAK hay and feed minimal unmollassed hard feed. I would say he could do with some bute so you may need to get some from your vet. You could also put him on Magnesium to help him metabolise sugars.

Yes, the funny stance does sound like a typical laminitic stance. Unusual for them to get uit in the hinds and not the fronts but not unheard of so don't let your vet or anone else try and persuade you otherwise... Is he barefoot? How is he walking over stony ground?

Crestyness is a stallion thing but also a diet related thing and there is no real reason for it not to reduce quite significantly in size. My boy was quite cresty this time last year and his has all but gone now. I was VERY strict with his turnout last year and very strict with his diet over winter too and got his weight right down. He now looks fab. It us very hard with a big horse as you want them to have enough fibre and getting the balance right can be tricky but do persevere. PM me if you want any further advice or reassurance...

 

[SpanishNeddy]

Don't be too worried, sounds like you've caught it early but DO keep him in. Given what you have just said, I would keep him in for a week. SOAK hay and feed minimal unmollassed hard feed. I would say he could do with some bute so you may need to get some from your vet. You could also put him on Magnesium to help him metabolise sugars.

Yes, the funny stance does sound like a typical laminitic stance. Unusual for them to get uit in the hinds and not the fronts but not unheard of so don't let your vet or anone else try and persuade you otherwise... Is he barefoot? How is he walking over stony ground?

Crestyness is a stallion thing but also a diet related thing and there is no real reason for it not to reduce quite significantly in size. My boy was quite cresty this time last year and his has all but gone now. I was VERY strict with his turnout last year and very strict with his diet over winter too and got his weight right down. He now looks fab. It us very hard with a big horse as you want them to have enough fibre and getting the balance right can be tricky but do persevere. PM me if you want any further advice or reassurance...

Thank you.

He is on magnesium anyway (hahaha to help with his hotness but he doesnt need that at the moment eh!!).

Yes he is barefoot. Seems fine walking through yard but track to field is mud, so we both fall about a bit LOL on the way there!

Is there anything visable I will be able to see anything? like on his hoofs? or would his temperature be up?

 

[CBFan]

You MIGHT notice that his coronet band is slightly swollen... and in a week or so you might see an 'event line' start to grow down his hooves... does he have any raised rings around his hooves?

Is your yard stony or flat concrete? is he really fine, i.e. striding out or does he pick his way a little?

you might be able to feel a raised digital pulse in his fetlocks... don't know about temperature, although sweating is a sign of pain...

 

[SpanishNeddy]

You MIGHT notice that his coronet band is slightly swollen... and in a week or so you might see an 'event line' start to grow down his hooves... does he have any raised rings around his hooves?

Is your yard stony or flat concrete? is he really fine, i.e. striding out or does he pick his way a little?

you might be able to feel a raised digital pulse in his fetlocks... don't know about temperature, although sweating is a sign of pain...

Ok i will have a look tonight - will check and come back to you! will take photos if i can.

yard is flat concrete, I will again look more carefully later.

 

[CBFan]

Ok i will have a look tonight - will check and come back to you! will take photos if i can.

yard is flat concrete, I will again look more carefully later.

Ok. good plan...

Try and find a stony / uneven patch you can walk him over if possible... if he struggles, his feet hurt!

 

[SpanishNeddy]

Ok. good plan...

Try and find a stony / uneven patch you can walk him over if possible... if he struggles, his feet hurt!

Ok we dont have any stony bits. Hmmmmm. If I bang them with hoof pick would that work??

 

[Fransurrey]

My pony tested negative for cushings and the vet said then that he was almost certainly EMS. He gets grass glands and during the times when he showed signs of low grade laminitis he was lethargic. Currently he's muzzled whenever he's out on grass. Even overnight. Hate the things, but he's much happier out than in and is like a rocket out and about, so doing well with it! He never showed sensitivity with a hoof pick, you just can't get the leverage. You need a farrier's testers. I would treat as LGL and go from there. My boy does get slightly puffy fetlocks and coronet bands, starting with the hinds. Get used to feeling his lower legs, so you know when they're not right. I can only find a pulse on Henry when there's a problem, so practice that, too.

 

[SpanishNeddy]

My pony tested negative for cushings and the vet said then that he was almost certainly EMS. He gets grass glands and during the times when he showed signs of low grade laminitis he was lethargic. Currently he's muzzled whenever he's out on grass. Even overnight. Hate the things, but he's much happier out than in and is like a rocket out and about, so doing well with it! He never showed sensitivity with a hoof pick, you just can't get the leverage. You need a farrier's testers. I would treat as LGL and go from there. My boy does get slightly puffy fetlocks and coronet bands, starting with the hinds. Get used to feeling his lower legs, so you know when they're not right. I can only find a pulse on Henry when there's a problem, so practice that, too.

That is really helpful thank you!

I am going to stables in one hour so will report back in a bit!

Any particular photos that would be helpful?

 

[Pale Rider]

My experience of this is to get him off grass and keep him off.
He is more than likely IR.
He'll easily get laminitis, and may well be in a continual state of LGL.

I have one which hasn't eaten improved pasture for 3 yrs and is fine in every way, just that grass will kill him.

 

[SpanishNeddy]

My experience of this is to get him off grass and keep him off.
He is more than likely IR.
He'll easily get laminitis, and may well be in a continual state of LGL.

I have one which hasn't eaten improved pasture for 3 yrs and is fine in every way, just that grass will kill him.

What does IR mean? and LGL is low grade lami is it?

UPDATE: last night after work he was still looking down and his tummy was all tucked up. Yard owner looked at him and said she thinks he has a chill as he is only used to half a day max turn out during the day and although he has been coping with longer over night turnout for a few weeks, the weather has changed and he is so sensitive he is not coping with the bad weather. She felt his legs and she didnt think they had heat in them. I did but then I could be thinking they do because I am worried.
Anyway, she told me to keep him in a few days and rug him up! so I have and this morning with his big heavyweight rug on he was much perkier and back to being a bit cheeky. Not quite his usual self but defo better than last night.

I do have some photos, so will upload them in a mo!

 

[Goldenstar]

IR = insulin resistant.

 

[Clodagh]

Sounds like lami to me, he could be putting his hinds under him to take weight off his fronts. If he has lami he won't have any heat in his legs, but you may feel a pulse (I am useless at finding pulses!).
If he has been in overnight that will immediately make him feel a bit brighter if it is lami but don't then chuck him back out, if the laminae are damaged they need time to restick or he will get rotated pedal bones.
A fat horse really shouldn't have too much turn out at the moment, especially if the fields are fertilised.
Hope he is OK.

 

[SpanishNeddy]

Sounds like lami to me, he could be putting his hinds under him to take weight off his fronts. If he has lami he won't have any heat in his legs, but you may feel a pulse (I am useless at finding pulses!).
If he has been in overnight that will immediately make him feel a bit brighter if it is lami but don't then chuck him back out, if the laminae are damaged they need time to restick or he will get rotated pedal bones.
A fat horse really shouldn't have too much turn out at the moment, especially if the fields are fertilised.
Hope he is OK.

I did try and find pulse but couldn't although not certain I was feeling the right place! my yard owner said there was no heat.

He is over weight, I am not sure if he is classified as obese but will upload photos now of him last night.

 

[SpanishNeddy]

IR = insulin resistant.

Ah ok thank you

 

[Goldenstar]

Was his temperature normal ?
It's usually very hard to miss lami if BF.
SN , I might be thinking about a vet visit if he where mine.
A diet is always a good idea as well if they are fat.

 

[SpanishNeddy]

Photos of him last night.....

 

[SpanishNeddy]

Was his temperature normal ?
It's usually very hard to miss lami if BF.
SN , I might be thinking about a vet visit if he where mine.
A diet is always a good idea as well if they are fat.

Nobody had temperature thingy so I could not take it maybe pointless trying tonight seeing as he has now been in a while what do you think?

He is on a diet!!!! trust me, we do not have much grass at all. There is 4 of them sharing a small paddock and it is pretty much non existant now anyway! and no, the fields are not fertilised etc.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would call the vet ,
It's all very us lot saying it might be this it might be that but if he's not been right for a few days and you can't see a clear reason I would have a vet vist.