Engagement of hindquarters- the fine line... any ideas

[Queenbee]

Hi all,

Just musing really, ben is doing grand... really well infact, his walk is coming on nicely but he can get a bit sluggish with his back end in trot, he is lazy and drags his feet. Im not worried that its a physiological problem, he is a baby and his bum just creeping up again (only very slightly) but Im pretty sure its all down to babyness and underdevelopment. When we strike off into trot, he steps underneath good and proper... but quickly he eases off with his back end and I can hear the scuff scuff intermittently when we trot. If I sit to the trot for a few beats, his back comes up underneath me and his scuffing stops and his head carriage rounds nicely. The problem is he is only 3 1/2 and sitting trot is not a viable option in reality. Trying to get impulsion is a nightmare, we just speed up and as I am going for calmness and containment Im just struggling to put my finger on how to get this one to be more impulsive and get his hind underneath him. On the lunge he is the same, he is now lunging perfectly but still is not 'self carrying' in trot. I am loathed to use any gadgets, I ride with a schooling whip already, but a flick from that at the moment just gets speed.... not what Im looking for. Im trying to create as little fuss with my hands as possible and his head carriage is much lower and he doesn't stick his head in the air like an ostrich anymore when he rushes

Anyway, he is in a well fitted saddle, a plain cavason noseband (it is a crank but fitted loose) with a copper mix double jointed loose ring bit. his teeth were floated about 5 months ago, I will be getting them checked again in january. He has just had a full sports massage, and was ever so slightly tense in the poll, and behind the girth... other than that absolutely fine and nice and level. He has recently lost the running martingale, and his headcarriage is less fussy than when he was wearing it. He now generally keeps his head nice and natural if not in an outline... towards the end of a hack he does start to round his neck/head really nicely in walk but its really low! he seems completely content in himself. He is a wierd mix between a baby that can have an excitable enthusiastic streak but for the most part is a bit of a lummox. Walk and Canter I am happy with and trot in the field is fine... its just at work, he seems sluggish, and I dont want to nag at him to much... as he is the type of horse that will dull to commands...

So Im really looking for some suggestions, how to get him to engage his back end without fizzing him and winding him up or making him dull to nagging. Its almost like he could do with some long and low work with a pessoa on the lunge for 5 mins, but hes just too young for this, and as I said he seems to respond when I sit for a few beats but again im not comfortable doing this on a 3 1/2 yr old... there is improvement in the trot, it is more steady and as I said his headcarriage is more 'natural' now, but that back end is starting to tick me off... I am positive he is just being lazy

 

[xloopylozzax]

I would be using more sitting trot, sit 2 or 3 beats then rise if need be. Its not as if your thumping up and down, it is much better for him to be engaged than strung out and sloppy.
Get your legs on and ride him into your contact.

If he gets lazy, up your transitions, these tend to get them almost anticipating and moving forward much better.

ETA- are you hacking him? Young horses can get stale in the school, if hes out seeing the sites he may naturally become more enthusiastic and "forwards"

 

[siennamum]

I wouldn't be worrying about any of this with a 3 year old.

I wouldn't be sitting to the trot, or worrying about where the head is, if you have corrected him from using his head and neck to balance in downwards transitions he will compensate by dragging his rear end along and dragging his toes.

Do nothing more than control his shoulders to keep straightness and ask him for prompt obedience. He should go forwards up and down hills - that will teach him to sit and use himself properly.

 

[xloopylozzax]

siennamum- young horses need to be learning. He needs to start to learn to work properly no matter what his age. It isnt about high level self carriage and collection yet though I agree.

So many "leisure" horses IMO are developing issues that just werent around 20 years ago because they are not being ridden- they are purely sat on and directed and left to their own devices.

He should not be dragging his hinds, he will be compensating else where and developing muscles in the wrong place, and not developing them in the right place either.
Making him work correctly will make it easier for him, he wont collapse through downwards transitions, and he wont end up falling flat on his face because he is being "lazy" potentially injuring them both.

Start how you mean to go on.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

You're asking too much. Return to walk when the trot deteriorates, or preferably just before. Only trot for as long as he can maintain a good quality of movement, even if that's just a few steps. As he becomes stronger he will gradually improve on the amount of trot he can do without it all falling apart. It's better that he uses the correct muscles in sitting trot than builds the wrong muscles in rising trot.

Or, if you just want to get on and ride him and have fun, then accept that he'll have poorer quality paces until older and stronger. Then you can work on undoing any bad habits, wrong muscle build up etc, when he's able to be worked a bit harder.

 

[siennamum]

siennamum- young horses need to be learning. He needs to start to learn to work properly no matter what his age. It isnt about high level self carriage and collection yet though I agree.

So many "leisure" horses IMO are developing issues that just werent around 20 years ago because they are not being ridden- they are purely sat on and directed and left to their own devices.

He should not be dragging his hinds, he will be compensating else where and developing muscles in the wrong place, and not developing them in the right place either.
Making him work correctly will make it easier for him, he wont collapse through downwards transitions, and he wont end up falling flat on his face because he is being "lazy" potentially injuring them both.

Start how you mean to go on.

I think exactly the opposite. Young horses these days are being asked to work in an outline and work in arenas when they are not ready to do so. We used to ride young horses away, that meant no worrying about their head carriage, just ensuring they worked forwards into a sensible - light contact, were obedient and straight and maybe had seen a bit of the world. That is all that would be done with a 3 year old.

If the young horse is still bum high, if he is growing - he will be physically incapable of carrying himself. That is why he is dragging his hinds. He cannot start to elevate his shoulders as a 3 year old IMO, he will outgrow his lazy attitude and slow way of going about stuff if you leave him alone and let him grow up.

 

[kirstykate]

Hey Queenbeen, less is more, try just 2 days schooling he could be going sour on you

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Just to add, there's a way of teaching the half-halt that may suit him. Once you've got his obedience to transitions sorted out and can trot for three strides and walk for one stride (one set of 1-2-3-4), start asking him to trot on again after one *step* of walk, ie. one hind hoof of walk. When you've mastered it, take it one stage further into not-quite-a-footfall. That's your half halt, the momentary hesitation that asks him to slow and sit on his hocks a little more before going forward again. You can then half-halt before every change of direction or change of pace, which will help to improve his balance.

Congrats on sorting out the issues you were having with his head and rushing. The head carriage sounds fine now for his level of training. I wasn't sure from your other thread whether you was looking to bit him up so you could get on with hacking etc or wanting to train him properly. Training a youngster properly and from scratch can feel frustratingly slow. It's hard to notice minuscule improvements daily. I recommend getting on somebody else's rather average horse once in a while to remind you of just how good your own is doing.

 

[BeesKnees]

I would say he isn't doing it because he can't yet. Working correctly takes balance, coordination, muscle strength and endurance which young horses have to develop. No difference to accepting a child will take time to learn to move with balance and strength, or an unfit adult building up to running 5k! You wouldn't expect them to do it very quickly, or very prettily to start off with.

I would definitely go for small short bursts of aiming for engagement, and lots of long and low to stretch over the back as a rest / well done. Not hollowing, slopping along. You could use very gentle lateral neck flexions to get the horse to take its head forward and down. Its more important imo to move forward and get impulsion, and so that youngsters enjoy the work. They are more likely to compensate if you ask too much and they get tired.

 

[Scarlett]

I would say he isn't doing it because he can't yet. Working correctly takes balance, coordination, muscle strength and endurance which young horses have to develop. No difference to accepting a child will take time to learn to move with balance and strength, or an unfit adult building up to running 5k! You wouldn't expect them to do it very quickly, or very prettily to start off with.

I would definitely go for small short bursts of aiming for engagement, and lots of long and low to stretch over the back as a rest / well done. Not hollowing, slopping along. You could use very gentle lateral neck flexions to get the horse to take its head forward and down. Its more important imo to move forward and get impulsion, and so that youngsters enjoy the work. They are more likely to compensate if you ask too much and they get tired.

This ^^^ I find the concept of using sitting trot to get his back up on a 3yo abhorrent! It will take months to build that muscle, and it shouldnt be thought about with a horse so immature. Get off his back, work on him taking the contact forward and down, nose out, lengthen the neck and develop his straightness and balance before you start working him any harder. He needs to be settled, off the leg and straight before anyone thinks about outlines or shapes....

He's not lazy or evading work... he's weak!

xloopylozzax - you're comments epitomise everything I hate about the modern style of riding.

 

[Queenbee]

Hi all, thank you for your replies... Ive only just got back from the yard so Im going to go through them one by one...

 

[Queenbee]

I would be using more sitting trot, sit 2 or 3 beats then rise if need be. Its not as if your thumping up and down, it is much better for him to be engaged than strung out and sloppy.
Get your legs on and ride him into your contact.

If he gets lazy, up your transitions, these tend to get them almost anticipating and moving forward much better.

ETA- are you hacking him? Young horses can get stale in the school, if hes out seeing the sites he may naturally become more enthusiastic and "forwards"

Hey Queenbeen, less is more, try just 2 days schooling he could be going sour on you

With regards to the schooling, we went in the school today.... for the first time since god know when... he was lunged in there for a few days the week before last, but other than that we are predominantly hacking, much of the schooling that we do is out on a hack... but the main focus is trying to get steady paces and muscle development. its probably been a good month or so since we went into the school with regards to ridden work, and today he was supremely improved, riding right into the corners, falling out far less, less distracted when other horses walked past... we have not even considered attempting canter as yet, but the walk and trot is a lot more controlled. There is no chance he could be getting stale, if anything we should be doing more schooling not less, but my back is squiffy and it can be such hard work, I recently had a pretty invasive massage, and I think that has really helped schooling, I can feel he is more developed and better able to carry himself from today but i also felt a lot better able to support his wobbly moments

So yeah we predominantly hack during the week but I try to get at least one lunge session in a week, that was yesterday, and am now going to try and squeeze in 1 schooling session in the arena.

 

[Queenbee]

I wouldn't be worrying about any of this with a 3 year old.

I wouldn't be sitting to the trot, or worrying about where the head is, if you have corrected him from using his head and neck to balance in downwards transitions he will compensate by dragging his rear end along and dragging his toes.

Do nothing more than control his shoulders to keep straightness and ask him for prompt obedience. He should go forwards up and down hills - that will teach him to sit and use himself properly.

I have not corrected him from using his neck and head to balance, I have however corrected him from sticking his head up and hollowing out in an attempt to pee off at a rush in trot just baby enthusiasm... he has always been pretty good and not thrown his head up to strike into trot... during both the upwards and downwards transitions he is pretty good at getting his bum under himself.

You're asking too much. Return to walk when the trot deteriorates, or preferably just before. Only trot for as long as he can maintain a good quality of movement, even if that's just a few steps. As he becomes stronger he will gradually improve on the amount of trot he can do without it all falling apart. It's better that he uses the correct muscles in sitting trot than builds the wrong muscles in rising trot.
Yes, I agree, I need to shorten the trots, quality not quantity! I was focusing more on doing this in the arena today and he started to bend nicely and step underneath, I was really quite impressed with him Im not sure how I feel about the concept of sitting trot on a baby, although I do tend to have quite a light seat, Im just not sure it sits right with me, but I do agree that a good way forward is to put the theory of smaller bursts of trot and more transitions into our hacking work

Or, if you just want to get on and ride him and have fun, then accept that he'll have poorer quality paces until older and stronger. Then you can work on undoing any bad habits, wrong muscle build up etc, when he's able to be worked a bit harder.

I am in no way interested in pushing him (and not suggesting that you are saying I am), and am not asking him to have all the bells and whistles now, I do want to have fun and just enjoy him, but I want him to work correctly and balanced within that, to coax him and his body to develop as it should. I have spent so many hours correcting incorrect development in horses after someone else has fluffed them up, I don't want to be doing that with ben, I want to ensure that his development is supported sympathetically, i think this will be of benefit to him in the long run.

 

[Queenbee]

I think exactly the opposite. Young horses these days are being asked to work in an outline and work in arenas when they are not ready to do so. We used to ride young horses away, that meant no worrying about their head carriage, just ensuring they worked forwards into a sensible - light contact, were obedient and straight and maybe had seen a bit of the world. That is all that would be done with a 3 year old.
I promise Im not pushing him in the arena and Im not pushing for an outline... if he gives it... fab, but its down to him, as long as he doesn't stargaze, but he needs to get his hindquarters working a bit better in order that he develops properly

If the young horse is still bum high, if he is growing - he will be physically incapable of carrying himself. That is why he is dragging his hinds. He cannot start to elevate his shoulders as a 3 year old IMO, he will outgrow his lazy attitude and slow way of going about stuff if you leave him alone and let him grow up.

he has always been a lazy so and so with his hindquarters and he has actually been pretty level since before he was backed... he has maybe crept up in the bum department by about 1/2 an inch, but to be honest that could just be muscling up, he has been the same height for the last 12 months... hes currently bang on 15.2 and though Im happy with that, I keep hoping we're going to have a late burst

 

[Queenbee]

Just to add, there's a way of teaching the half-halt that may suit him. Once you've got his obedience to transitions sorted out and can trot for three strides and walk for one stride (one set of 1-2-3-4), start asking him to trot on again after one *step* of walk, ie. one hind hoof of walk. When you've mastered it, take it one stage further into not-quite-a-footfall. That's your half halt, the momentary hesitation that asks him to slow and sit on his hocks a little more before going forward again. You can then half-halt before every change of direction or change of pace, which will help to improve his balance.

Congrats on sorting out the issues you were having with his head and rushing. The head carriage sounds fine now for his level of training. I wasn't sure from your other thread whether you was looking to bit him up so you could get on with hacking etc or wanting to train him properly. Training a youngster properly and from scratch can feel frustratingly slow. It's hard to notice minuscule improvements daily. I recommend getting on somebody else's rather average horse once in a while to remind you of just how good your own is doing.

thank you like the sound of the schooling task, that will be employed when hacking too , yeah, the bit thing, was mainly to help with the enthusiasm and the rushing, but we managed to nail that by hacking in company more often so it became less exciting, and doing away with the martingale (neither of us liked it) he is so much better now! I am seeing improvements every day, I was blown away by his attitude in the school today, so much more relaxed and mature, he is lungeing like a pro... 2 weeks ago it was like a car crash, I think the improvements lunge wise have benefited his attitude in the school.

I would say he isn't doing it because he can't yet. Working correctly takes balance, coordination, muscle strength and endurance which young horses have to develop. No difference to accepting a child will take time to learn to move with balance and strength, or an unfit adult building up to running 5k! You wouldn't expect them to do it very quickly, or very prettily to start off with.

I would definitely go for small short bursts of aiming for engagement, and lots of long and low to stretch over the back as a rest / well done. Not hollowing, slopping along. You could use very gentle lateral neck flexions to get the horse to take its head forward and down. Its more important imo to move forward and get impulsion, and so that youngsters enjoy the work. They are more likely to compensate if you ask too much and they get tired.

thank you, I think this is the way Im going to go, he is pretty good at long and low... very low but I agree, short quality bursts of trot and transitions

This ^^^ I find the concept of using sitting trot to get his back up on a 3yo abhorrent! It will take months to build that muscle, and it shouldnt be thought about with a horse so immature. Get off his back, work on him taking the contact forward and down, nose out, lengthen the neck and develop his straightness and balance before you start working him any harder. He needs to be settled, off the leg and straight before anyone thinks about outlines or shapes....

He's not lazy or evading work... he's weak!

xloopylozzax - you're comments epitomise everything I hate about the modern style of riding.

please put away the exclamation marks!! I am not using sitting trot It doesn't sit well with me either, but when I sit at the end to ask for a downwards transition, his bum comes up... this is merely what I was saying. So no, i do not need to get off his back. And no I wouldn't take him out to compete next week, but I also wouldn't say he's entirely weak, he has been ridden for 6 months now so he is getting there. He can be a lazy sod, its in his character and yes, if he finds something a bit of a task... he will evade... most horses will try this tack Having said that, he does respond to the leg, he will move off it, he is straight, unless there is a puddle and if he goes into an outline/shape its of his own volition, my hands and seat are kept as still as possible. And we do a lot of long and low whilst out hacking, its something I have always encouraged in my horses. This is all about his hind quarters, there is nothing wrong with wanting him to start getting them working properly in trot, only with starting that will I be in a position to build it up over time.

 

[Twinkle Twinkle]

My girl is 5 and been backed about 8 weeks now and we have only just introduced trot as my instructor wanted to get her going well in walk and engaging her back end being able to bend and happy with a contact . She is really coming along nicely and she is trotting lovely not in a rush to canter her yet that will come.

I would go back to walk and spend time getting your horse to step up underneath him and do lots of bending circles to supple him up. He is only young so l wouldn`t worry.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

If your back is tight you're probably blocking his movement, so you create impulsion but then block it with your back, meaning he can't use his back under you properly. Well, he could, but it would require him to ignore your blocking of him and take more effort on his part. If he's inclined to be lazy he probably doesn't like this option. It's worth having regular physio or something to keep yourself as functional as possible.

 

[Queenbee]

If your back is tight you're probably blocking his movement, so you create impulsion but then block it with your back, meaning he can't use his back under you properly. Well, he could, but it would require him to ignore your blocking of him and take more effort on his part. If he's inclined to be lazy he probably doesn't like this option. It's worth having regular physio or something to keep yourself as functional as possible.

yeah, I do get it seen to regularly, I just missed an appointment and so it got all squiffy again It was done 2 weeks ago and I feel fine now... I also ride with a back brace on to keep me as level as possible. But yeah, when its not so great, it really does impact on us... thats why I got the back brace... just to support me in supporting him as much as possible if I am having a niggly day

 

[xloopylozzax]

For those saying hes weak so incapable-

If he never does it how does he get stronger? Letting him work incorrectly will make him weaker, and more prone to injury.

I dont want the OP to work him in draw reins and spurs and getting him passaging next week, i just think that if his back comes up and he engages and works when she sits she should utilise and encourage that, gradually to make him stronger.

In my original post I said I would be using transitions and short burts of trot, not laps of sitting trot as some interpretted.

This horse is backed and knows the basic walk trot canter which is why the OP is now putting in the foundations for a good ridden horse, by making him powerful and supple.

How many horses on here have issues in canter or sacroiliac problems? Do I think some could be avoided by the horse in question not dragging its self round in the lower gaits; lots IMO!

 

[siennamum]

For those saying hes weak so incapable-

If he never does it how does he get stronger? Letting him work incorrectly will make him weaker, and more prone to injury.

I dont want the OP to work him in draw reins and spurs and getting him passaging next week, i just think that if his back comes up and he engages and works when she sits she should utilise and encourage that, gradually to make him stronger.

In my original post I said I would be using transitions and short burts of trot, not laps of sitting trot as some interpretted.

This horse is backed and knows the basic walk trot canter which is why the OP is now putting in the foundations for a good ridden horse, by making him powerful and supple.

How many horses on here have issues in canter or sacroiliac problems? Do I think some could be avoided by the horse in question not dragging its self round in the lower gaits; lots IMO!

I think this is a really interesting topic and hope the OP will be ok with us having a general discussion about it on her thread.
My friend is a chiro and we both discuss the development of young horses at length. I am firmly of the belief that horses need to be conditioned at length - like for a year at least, by varied work. In order to work correctly they have to strengthen the base of their neck for instance and that will take ages, they need to build muscle and strengthen tendons & ligaments.
I think you have to have a generally well muscled and conditioned horse before you can start really focussing on specific musculature for a job.
Although I suspect we are talking about the same thing, I would only want a horse working forwards into the bridle as a 3 year old. I would then leave it in a field to grow up some more before asking for more of a frame as a 4 year old.

It is an interesting topic I think because as you say there are so many problems later in life which can be linked to early management & riding.

 

[Queenbee]

For those saying hes weak so incapable-

If he never does it how does he get stronger? Letting him work incorrectly will make him weaker, and more prone to injury.

I dont want the OP to work him in draw reins and spurs and getting him passaging next week, i just think that if his back comes up and he engages and works when she sits she should utilise and encourage that, gradually to make him stronger.

In my original post I said I would be using transitions and short burts of trot, not laps of sitting trot as some interpretted.

This horse is backed and knows the basic walk trot canter which is why the OP is now putting in the foundations for a good ridden horse, by making him powerful and supple.

How many horses on here have issues in canter or sacroiliac problems? Do I think some could be avoided by the horse in question not dragging its self round in the lower gaits; lots IMO!

I couldn't agree with you more...

I think this is a really interesting topic and hope the OP will be ok with us having a general discussion about it on her thread.
My friend is a chiro and we both discuss the development of young horses at length. I am firmly of the belief that horses need to be conditioned at length - like for a year at least, by varied work. In order to work correctly they have to strengthen the base of their neck for instance and that will take ages, they need to build muscle and strengthen tendons & ligaments.
I think you have to have a generally well muscled and conditioned horse before you can start really focussing on specific musculature for a job.
Although I suspect we are talking about the same thing, I would only want a horse working forwards into the bridle as a 3 year old. I would then leave it in a field to grow up some more before asking for more of a frame as a 4 year old.

It is an interesting topic I think because as you say there are so many problems later in life which can be linked to early management & riding.

I am more than supportive of opening this discussion up... I believe that letting a horse go incorrectly can cause lasting issues, I was forever struggling to right the wrongs caused in ebony before I had her, if you end up with a poorly developed horse with muscles uneven and in the wrong place, trying to rectify this is going to be painful to the horse, the more the horse works with its head in the clouds for instance, the more easy it becomes for him to do this as the muscles develop to support that carriage and the harder it will be to get him going correctly.... to recorrect would take regular treatment to release the muscles and tension in the neck and poll, and then you would essentially be dealing with a weak horse that starts from scratch to build up the correct muscles... better to get it right the first time in my opinion

 

[siennamum]

I couldn't agree with you more...




I am more than supportive of opening this discussion up... I believe that letting a horse go incorrectly can cause lasting issues, I was forever struggling to right the wrongs caused in ebony before I had her, if you end up with a poorly developed horse with muscles uneven and in the wrong place, trying to rectify this is going to be painful to the horse, the more the horse works with its head in the clouds for instance, the more easy it becomes for him to do this as the muscles develop to support that carriage and the harder it will be to get him going correctly.... to recorrect would take regular treatment to release the muscles and tension in the neck and poll, and then you would essentially be dealing with a weak horse that starts from scratch to build up the correct muscles... better to get it right the first time in my opinion

I think there is a distinction though. Working in a resistant frame will be detrimental. Working with the nose poking out and using the neck for balance if natural and fine. I think horses work n a correct frame when they have the right musculature and this isn't created by specific schooling in young horses. The only time I would specifically work to make the young horse work in a way which is objects to would be if it has a conformational fault which needs addressing.

For instance. If you build up the young horses neck to that it is out and strong, then when you ask the horse to work from the hocks to the hand, it will elevate it's shoulders. (If it is soft at the poll and jaw- which can also take time) If you ask the horse to work from the hocks to the hand when it has a soft unmuscled neck, it is likely to 'give either in front of the withers or at the 3rd vertebra, creating a big problem in later training with the horse falling out through it's shoulders, having resistance in its mouth or sitting behind the contact/vertical.
Developing a strong neck, will take a year or so and is best done just off the contact, wth the horse in a natural frame.

 

[Scarlett]

On phone so can't quote, however Siennamum has it spot on. It takes a year to build a horse up correctly. A pretty head carriage is the last thing to come once the horse has everything else in place. It doesnt mean letting a horse slop along, far from it, it means building strength and suppleness steadily.

I've sat on far too many horses that have been ruined by exactly the work you describe. The intent was good, but the understanding and the execution poor.

 

[Queenbee]

I think there is a distinction though. Working in a resistant frame will be detrimental. Working with the nose poking out and using the neck for balance if natural and fine. I think horses work n a correct frame when they have the right musculature and this isn't created by specific schooling in young horses. The only time I would specifically work to make the young horse work in a way which is objects to would be if it has a conformational fault which needs addressing.

For instance. If you build up the young horses neck to that it is out and strong, then when you ask the horse to work from the hocks to the hand, it will elevate it's shoulders. (If it is soft at the poll and jaw- which can also take time) If you ask the horse to work from the hocks to the hand when it has a soft unmuscled neck, it is likely to 'give either in front of the withers or at the 3rd vertebra, creating a big problem in later training with the horse falling out through it's shoulders, having resistance in its mouth or sitting behind the contact/vertical.
Developing a strong neck, will take a year or so and is best done just off the contact, wth the horse in a natural frame.

I suppose that my point is that this dragging his back end (god Im having a horrid visualisation of a horse literally dragging its bum on the ground!) and so not in a natural carriage. He carries himself beautifully in walk and canter with no interference from me... as I said I just sit there. His canter is the steadiest and controlled I have ridden... when we get to really working that, its going to be exceptional! Begining and end of trot by about 2-3 strides are good too, its the middle thats a bit ugly I suppose Im just flapping, he isn't wearing out his toes so it cant be that bad, and Im sure over time the 3 strides will become 4 and 4 will become 5 until they meet in the middle and I have dealt with the worst thing which was his stargazing and rushing off like a trotter... I am sure we will get there... its just so frustrating to hear the scuff scuff

 

[Queenbee]

On phone so can't quote, however Siennamum has it spot on. It takes a year to build a horse up correctly. A pretty head carriage is the last thing to come once the horse has everything else in place. It doesnt mean letting a horse slop along, far from it, it means building strength and suppleness steadily.

I've sat on far too many horses that have been ruined by exactly the work you describe. The intent was good, but the understanding and the execution poor.

well fortunately for ben he is not being ruined, he had a full sports massage the other day and had very slight spot of tension in the poll, from where he had been stargazing, and a slight spot behind the forelegs... again the assumtion is this is because he is being lazy with his back end so in effect he has been dragging himself forward...

I am confused though, I am not expecting him to be all dancing and singing perfect... I am supporting his development, Im not getting on and expecting head in an outline, back up at all times etc... i think you are intentionally misinterpreting me. I too have sat on many a ruined horse so I am not totally dense, and I certainly hope that you are not intimating that my execution is poor... it is impossible for you to make such a judgement via the internet

I would also be interested in what you mean by 'exactly the work you described' or where the hell you think I came on here saying 'I want my horse to have a pretty head carriage' Im not looking for that as I have made abundantly clear from the outset

 

[siennamum]

I wouldn't worry too much about the dragging feet thing if he were mine. If he is on the forehand he is unable to step confidently through with his hind legs. Mine had the problem that his hind end used to overtake the front which was entertaining! A youngster we are starting to school currently has completely uneven hind leg action working on three tracks in walk and trot, which is exasperating and will take ages to fix. He;s recently broken so not ruined by people, maybe a slip in the field I am thinking.
In your place I would stick to the scales of training and worry about him dragging his toes when he is 5. I bet its a developmental phase. The only thing I would do to sharpen him up if he is being a bit sloppy is a bit of forward and back, all with just seat and legs, and in a light seat. tbh I wouldn't do much of that with a 3 year old, but would with a 4 year old.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have read this thread and there's lots of interesting thoughts for you here here FWTAW are mine.
Pay with the work pattern every other day , one day in three , lunge hack school two days off etc etc until you find the best one.
Transitions are your friend if you lose energy walk rest start again and and this what I probally do from what you have described turn away for a least twelve weeks I would turn away until March or even a bit longer .

 

[Scarlett]

Im not saying anything about your execution, I dint know you from Adam. My issue us more with some of the comments/advice of xloopylozzax but I can't quote on my phone to make myself clear.

I think your expecting too much, personally, thus risking your horses long term soundness - but what do I know, I'm a nobody on the internet

 

[Queenbee]

Im not saying anything about your execution, I dint know you from Adam. My issue us more with some of the comments/advice of xloopylozzax but I can't quote on my phone to make myself clear.

ah, ok

I think your expecting too much, personally, thus risking your horses long term soundness - but what do I know, I'm a nobody on the internet

I understand your stance, but its a fine line between keeping my horse happy and not, he truly does hate being idle... Id actually prefer to be doing less and our workouts are not that strenuous, despite being as wolly as a yetti he hasn't once sweated up other than the times when he was trying to rush off in trot, everything is tackled steadily and calmly... he is unshod to protect his legs from shock as much as possible and from research I have seen great evidence that small amounts of regular and appropriate road work can actually help to strengthen bone density in youngsters. trot work on the actual road is minimal and is predominantly done on our bridleways... which are good quality. Im neither expecting outline, or perfect self carriage, but I do worry about the impact that dragging his hinds could have surely that could damage him if i just ignore it

 

[lula]

I think your expecting too much, personally, thus risking your horses long term soundness - but what do I know, I'm a nobody on the internet

i think that's a a pretty huge judgement to make without seeing the OP's horse and her working together.