Epic Flare

[TwoStroke]

Can anyone offer any tips on dealing with extreme flare that just won't go away?

The horse is a TB, and has always had flared feet to some extent, but not this bad. He's a little footy on sharp stones on top of tarmac, but otherwise seems fine. He storms down bridlepaths that look like the side of a mountain, so lgl seems unlikely - but if the laminae aren't inflamed how can his feet be so flared??

He has toe cracks where the hoof wall is so disconnected. He's had very little grass all winter - but ad lib hay 24/7, and is fed on blue bag grass nuts (half a scoop split into two feeds) and a few handfuls of timothy hay chaff. Plus forage plus winter hoof health balancer. I tried soaking hay, but he lives with another horse, and soaking enough hay for two big horses is something we're not really set up for .

He can't tolerate big trims without going VERY footy - so maybe it is lgl - despite no grass?? Over the last year we've tried trimming, not trimming, emergency laminitic diet, bug busting, walking in hand on the roads... Nothing seems to make any difference either to his wall connection or level of comfort on difficult surfaces.

Our hay comes from varying sources, so an analysis won't give the full picture, plus I'm looking for a new yard so won't be here very much longer.

I'm not panicking yet, as the horse isn't sore and the toe cracks are stable, if not improving. I am properly fed up with the state of them, though!

Horse had starch overload just over a year ago, which triggered the massive flare we have now, but I would have expected some improvement by now .

 

[paddy555]

have you tested for ACTH?

any pics?

 

[TwoStroke]

No, haven't tested for PPID, as it seemed to be a result of an initial dietary faux pas, but just never recovered.

I only have a sole shot, but here goes:

 

[Oberon]

So he is sound except for sharp stones?

By sharp stones - do you mean he takes the normal amount of caution any horse would....or do you mean he is not comfortable at all?

What is his workload?

 

[TwoStroke]

He's rubbish at caution and just steps on them . He removes his foot sharpish - if it's a nasty one that he's given a wallop then he'll lurch, but doesn't continue on lame. He's sound apart from that, though, and he seems ok on surfaces that are all stones - I guess it makes him to pay attention instead of gawking at what's going on in the hedges.

He does about an hour's hacking 5 days a week, mostly roads with some bridleways. All in walk. He's only been working since the end of Feb, though.

 

[Oberon]

Diet wise you are obviously on the ball. All I can suggest is you could *try* substituting the grass pellets with purabeet for the spring/summer and adding some yea-sacc and see if that makes any difference.

The flare may be aquired to help with a body issue. If he is sound, then I wouldn't really worry about it.

 

[amandap]

I have to soak my TB's hay all the time and I would consider switching to the hoof health balancer (use the winter version all year round) next time you buy for the lysine etc. Sorry it's more expensive. You could email Sarah as well. http://shop.forageplus.com/epages/e.../Shops/es137718/Products/"Winter Hoof Health" You may need to add yea sacc and possibly extra magnesium and salt as well.
I second paddy555 about possibly blood testing.
I would stop the grass nuts as well, they are grass. lol Switch to unmolassed beet if it suits him. I would drop the chaff as well, the beet will carry minerals and linseed as well as provide good fibre energy.

ps. Apologies I misread the balancer you are using. It's early days for that, I don't think they've been making it for long have they?

 

[TwoStroke]

Thanks, Oberon. I was planning on switching back to umolassed beet (great minds...) so will do that, though he was on it until a few months back, with no apparant difference. Tried yea-sacc too, but maybe not for long enough, so will keep him on it and see. I'm hoping to up the hacking and see if we can outgrow the cracks.

Amandap, yes, the hoof health one is a pretty recent development, but can't see any event lines/tighter growth from when it was introduced. The grass nuts are the low nutrient ones - less than 7% sugar and minimal starch... I haven't noticed any problems since starting them, but will switch back to beet and see. He is a fussy TB sadly, and I have to choose between a 100% perfect diet, and getting him to eat his minerals. But as I mentioned, at one point I had him on an emergency laminitic diet to try and rule out dietary cause, and saw no improvement, which was a bit of a head scratcher.

 

[amandap]

But as I mentioned, at one point I had him on an emergency laminitic diet to try and rule out dietary cause, and saw no improvement, which was a bit of a head scratcher.

Yes, it takes a while for the hoof to grow down. I suppose I should consider myself lucky that the hay soaking/no grass does it for my tb.
PPID is the next thing to consider I suppose.

 

[claribella]

I would also reassess diet since what you are feeding is a pelleted form of grass but it could be something further up. My girl had a flare on her hinds and podiatrist told m to change saddle because that and a couple of wear patterns pointed to that. A new saddle and A few months later an the flares were completely gone

 

[TwoStroke]

Yes, it takes a while for the hoof to grow down. I suppose I should consider myself lucky that the hay soaking/no grass does it for my tb.
PPID is the next thing to consider I suppose.

True... But I usually find that if dietary changes are going to make a difference then the horse will throw an event line which should be visible in the weeks following the change. I'd also expect some change in footiness too, if diet was causing an issue... he's footy on alfalfa, for eg.

He's 10, so we'll probably only test for ppid if he can't tolerate increased workload, as he has no other symptoms.

Now I think about it... His hind feet are no where near as flared, but he has stifle issues, so maybe Oberon's right and it is compensatory, somehow... Or perhaps the stifle issues are causing him to put more weight on his fronts .

 

[Boysy]

I only resolved my lads flare on his inside right hind when i resolved the problem with the left side of his body/back/stifle/hip, it still grows slightly different but way better than it was, he had been compensating for around 3 yrs in total i reckon althou hadn't been in work all that time and was sound or appeared to be to the naked eye.

 

[brightmount]

OP my mares fronts look exactly the same as your photo. It's the first time in 7 years of barefoot that she's had such dramatic change. The only change in her management has been weather related. There has been very restricted turnout at my yard this winter, and the fields are mudbaths.

I'm keeping the channels in the white line clean and free from grit, and I plug them with artimud which is medicated. My trimmer isn't unduly worried, and the horse is sound. Hopefully things will get back on track over the summer.

 

[LucyPriory]

I don't see white line stretch from upper body issues. I do see asymmetric hooves which from the outside look like they are flared, but the solar view reveals a tightly connected white line.

I do see moderate white line stretch made worse by inappropriate trimming.

Age and obvious symptoms do not preclude PPID/Cushings. There have been a number of cases recently where the horses have been 7 or less.

There are some free Cushings test vouchers which may help with costs if you decide to test.

 

[TwoStroke]

OP my mares fronts look exactly the same as your photo. It's the first time in 7 years of barefoot that she's had such dramatic change. The only change in her management has been weather related. There has been very restricted turnout at my yard this winter, and the fields are mudbaths.

I'm keeping the channels in the white line clean and free from grit, and I plug them with artimud which is medicated. My trimmer isn't unduly worried, and the horse is sound. Hopefully things will get back on track over the summer.

maybe he's growing flippers as an adaptation to all this wet weather! Clever pony!

I don't see white line stretch from upper body issues. I do see asymmetric hooves which from the outside look like they are flared, but the solar view reveals a tightly connected white line.

I do see moderate white line stretch made worse by inappropriate trimming.

Age and obvious symptoms do not preclude PPID/Cushings. There have been a number of cases recently where the horses have been 7 or less.

There are some free Cushings test vouchers which may help with costs if you decide to test.

LP, would you mind elaborating on the inappropriate trimming? Would you suggest the flare needs to be trimmed off, then? I'm pretty sure that would make him quite lame.

Also I'm a little confused as you say first that you don't see white line stretch on the solar view, but then that there's moderate stretch?

Thanks .

 

[LucyPriory]

maybe he's growing flippers as an adaptation to all this wet weather! Clever pony!



LP, would you mind elaborating on the inappropriate trimming? Would you suggest the flare needs to be trimmed off, then? I'm pretty sure that would make him quite lame.

Also I'm a little confused as you say first that you don't see white line stretch on the solar view, but then that there's moderate stretch?

Thanks .

New paragraph - new subject. So the second paragraph of a single sentence is not part of the first.

White line stretch is generally caused by dietary/endocrine disease/hind gut issues of some sort. It's a big bucket, but remove the cause and the hoof can grow in tighter from the top and the flare will gradually grow out.

If there is even a tiny bit of weakness in the laminae then inappropriate trimming does seem to encourage/make the flaring worse. It's a hard one because you have to see a horse through both good and bad to really see the difference.

The trouble is a lot of humans rely on peripheral loading created either by shoes or a rim of hoof wall, no matter how tiny, to lift a thin/weak sole off the ground. This is a double edged sword. The horse has 'current' relief because the weak sole is not directly load bearing, or is in part relieved from load bearing, but the weakened laminae then have to bear the weight of the horse more or less on their own which they are not designed to do.

I am not going to get into the debate of mechanical tearing, for me the case hasn't been sufficiently proven either way. But I do see time and again horses with a white line stretch, initially lame, get some relief from correct trimming. That does not mean that after one trim they will come sound (although I've seen that too), but that not having to put stress on a weakened area of laminae can bring relief, particularly on tight turns.

However the carers of such horses have my sympathy, because managing one with a thin/weak sole is problematic. They will always be vulnerable until the sole is improved. In the meantime stick to forgiving surfaces or boot, with pads if necessary. Peripheral loading is, certainly in the longer term, not the answer.

Horses that have asymmetry, (but no laminitis) - perhaps to compensate for limb deviation or upper body issues - will have a tight white line all round with no stretch. The sole should be of adequate thickness and properly adapted to the horse's circumstances.

Regarding lameness when flare due to white line stretch is trimmed. a) there is more than one way of trimming out a stretched white line and some of them are at best unhelpful, others can cause longer term structural weakness b) flare can be used to create peripheral loading, this has it's own dangers. I've lost count of the number of 'sinkers' I've seen.

I have seen horse's with naturally (not white line stretch) deviated/asymmetric hooves devasted to the point of PTS by human attempts to make the foot straight and symmetrical. So I guess on the road to this point especially with a barefoot horse, attempts to straighten the foot by trimming out deviation, may make the horse lame.

It's a big topic. One that is very fresh as I've just got back to the office having just done a long term laminitic with bad flare from white line stretch and desperately thin soles. But he was still better off without the flare which was delaying breakover and preventing comfortable cornering. Horse is not sound, but is less lame than before.

 

[Shysmum]

haven't read all the posts, but sometimes, I have read in one of my barefoot books, the hoof growth is compensating for a body confirmation issue, and as such is not too much to worry about (as long as the farrier is happy). The underlying issue may well be though.

Just a thought.

 

[TwoStroke]

Thanks for the detailed reply, LP

New paragraph - new subject. So the second paragraph of a single sentence is not part of the first.

This came across a little rude, but no offense taken.

I take your point about peripheral loading, though I'm not certain if this is the case here - the only place the hoof walls are proud of the sole more than a mm are at the quarters, and I keep a scoop trimmed on them or they cause a bulge in the hairline at the coronet.

Other than that, though I just put a little bevel on. He gets very sore after an EP trim, so I don't have him done. I've experimented a little with taking varying amounts of flare off, but it's never affected his soundness like an EP trim did. In fact about 2 weeks before taking this photo I trimmed quite a bit of the flare off, but it's popped right back.

I've noticed he's less comfy on his lateral walls, and loads the medial side a little more. Comfort isn't affected by taking more off the lateral wall, though.

His feet are such a funky shape that boots aren't really practical, particularly as I work full time and it's always a mad rush to ride before work.

Shysmum - I do feel that the proof of the pudding is in the eating... whilst the horse is sound, this pudding's more of a curiosity than a sleep-stealer .

ETA: Sole depth is about 1/2 an inch, so could be better but not a disaster.

 

[LucyPriory]

haven't read all the posts, but sometimes, I have read in one of my barefoot books, the hoof growth is compensating for a body confirmation issue, and as such is not too much to worry about (as long as the farrier is happy). The underlying issue may well be though.

Just a thought.

Yes - without a white line stretch that is 'deviation' or 'natural' asymmetry. I prefer not to confuse it with flare which is from white line stretch. Unfortunately even some professionals seem not to know the difference.

Really important to keep the two separate because to try and make a deviated hoof symmetrical by trimming or shoeing can lead to big problems.