Equestrian Legal Help

[17carrot]

I’m just wondering if anyone is knowledgeable on equine law and knows a good person or company to contact regarding
-Being mis-sold a livery package (was told terms and conditions but they changed when we arrived)
-Dangerous fields (the level of mud guaranteed being stuck instantly and trampled)
-Being told to pay for services not asked for or needed (by other Livery not management)
-Been told to leave with little warning
-Bullying and false allegations
No contract of any kind has been signed by anyone.

 

[ihatework]

Honestly, why rack up legal costs. Chalk it up to a bad experience and move on.
Frustrating when contractual services aren’t provided but what are you actually hoping to receive?

 

[nagblagger]

I would just move.
You must also take responsibility for moving your horse to this livery without signing any contract or 'sussing it out by checking fields etc. Learn from this experience.

 

[CMcC]

Honestly, why rack up legal costs. Chalk it up to a bad experience and move on.
Frustrating when contractual services aren’t provided but what are you actually hoping to receive?

This.

You will be spending on legal fees, there is no written contract so how can you prove anything? Just chalk it up to experience and buy yourself (or your horse) something nice with the money you don’t spend on legal fees.

 

[SilverLinings]

I'm not sure how mud could be deemed dangerous; bottomless mud is a feature of most yards in the winter, particularly in gateways. If there is no contract then I would think proving the yard hasn't provided what was expected would be difficult. The lack of contract also means the short notice to leave isn't likely to be something that could be fought legally. The bullying/behaviour of the yard owner/manager/other liveries would only be a legal issue if it amounted to actual harassment (within the terms of the law) or assault.

I think, as other have said, your best bet is to move on and take great care when choosing a new yard. Speaking to other current and past liveries may help to give you a broader picture when yard hunting, and if you give the area and ask on here other posters may be able to help with suggestions of good yards near you.

 

[17carrot]

Thanks everyone for your advice, it is appreciated, but I asked all the right questions when viewing and was mis sold the package entirely. I’ve been looking long enough to know what I’m after…just ask all the yards that were honest and I said no to because they didn’t suit

The terms and conditions that were sold to me were not met and that’s wrong, a contract was mentioned but never produced. The field I was told I would be in was changed explaining the mud, when running a business there as some health and safety responsibilities associated and I want to know what they are. When asking around was told everyone was lovely and they all had a chat, which until in the situation you can only take at face value.
Quite frankly I am not just going to move on without them realising that they cannot lie to people and charge for things that were included eg drinking water. It now comes to light that this isn’t the first time they have done this. I’m more than willing to rack up legal fees as opposed to paying another Livery for taking it upon herself to “care” for my horse when she doesn’t know her needs and I have not asked for her services

I’ve seen on other posts people mention the BHS so that might be my first stop

 

[nagblagger]

Yes BHS are good if you are a member. If the other livery has interfered with your horse without permission then you can, and should, take it further - i would be fuming!
How can they charge for water? i see why you want to complain, but maybe move your horse first so there can be no repercussions or the YO telling other YOs not to have you on their yard, and then giving you notice.

 

[Zoeypxo]

BHS do have a legal help line

although, the only way to not have mud in a field in the winter is to not use it ! What was the problem ?

 

[17carrot]

Yes BHS are good if you are a member. If the other livery has interfered with your horse without permission then you can, and should, take it further - i would be fuming!
How can they charge for water? i see why you want to complain, but maybe move your horse first so there can be no repercussions or the YO telling other YOs not to have you on their yard, and then giving you notice.

Thanks, I’ll make sure my membership is up to date, we are already set to move too (thank goodness)!

 

[17carrot]

BHS do have a legal help line

although, the only way to not have mud in a field in the winter is to not use it ! What was the problem ?

I have no problem with mud in general, it’s good for the soul I do have a problem with there being so much mud that it is physically impossible to get into the field. The mud has liquidised for at least 10 meters into the field and a few meters in front and essentially it “sucks” you in and you cannot move at all. With a field full of horses this is incredibly dangerous, especially at bring in time. If you go in and they push or run you will be trampled, I have fallen many times but luckily not with a horse. You have to stand ON the gate while opening it, hope your horse comes over so you can loop a lead rope around them in order to guide them out the gate, off the mud and in a safe place to stand and put on a head collar (I hope this makes sense). And I want to know if this is a health and safety issue I could mention to any potential help.

 

[ihatework]

Could you update with what BHS advise because I’d be interested to hear if they feel you have a chance of being awarded anything for breach of contract/whatever is is you are hoping for

 

[blitznbobs]

Honestly, I doubt you have a case… the contract would have offered you some protection but you didn’t get it prior to moving on.., it is going to be your word against theirs and what loss can you show anyway? It will be a difficult fight for very little reward

 

[Red-1]

For you to claim money from the yard, I believe you have to have material losses.

If you and your horse are not injured, I'm not sure what your material losses are? As far as the other livery go, I would simply refuse to pay for any services that you neither needed or wanted. As far as drinking water goes, if this was added as an extra expense, I would simply refuse to pay it and contect any court action associated with the cost.

I have once asked the BHS for legal advice. I didn't find it particularly helpful. You got half an hour to explain the issue and have a conversation, no follow up letters or conversations.

I would simply move.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Yes BHS are good if you are a member. If the other livery has interfered with your horse without permission then you can, and should, take it further - i would be fuming!
How can they charge for water? i see why you want to complain, but maybe move your horse first so there can be no repercussions or the YO telling other YOs not to have you on their yard, and then giving you notice.

Agree, I had my horse interfered with….
At the time 4 winters ago and near xmas time, I was doing mostly 6-6 shifts so was at the yard dark both times. It had been particularly wet so most horses were only
Out a couple hours a day. This livery took it upon herself to call me.. I was busy I couldnt pick up, so when she never got an answer she put BB out in the field! Then an hour later I managed to get time to
Call and she said it was to let me know she had put BB out for a few hours, I said I did not want him out as I was not home till 7 pm. She said thats ok, I will bring him in when I bring mine in. So I was agitated and annoyed but left it at that.
Next day No mention to me of any incident… the woman who was working at the yard at the time was not in work, claims she needed to go to hospital as BB had kicked her. Effing mad is an understatement!!!
I called her and I asked what the fudge she had done to my horse. She said BB turned round and cow kicked her for no reason! Not a chance! No way, he has never kicked or bitten.
I went to put BB in the field and I could not get him near the gate whatsoever. He was absolutely terrified. I called the YO and he came down to see me, and the state BB was in , he was sweating after 3 minutes. He let me use the next door field for what I thought was going to be temporary. Got him in the field fine but he took a while to settle and he wouldn’t get near any fences.
Ten minutes later I got a phone call to say that the livery had buzzed bb with the electric fence tape in her field while she was trying to bring our horses our together , we were not sharing a field. No wonder he was going mad, BB doesnt need electric ,you could literally tie crisp bags along as a fence line and he respects it. I called her and asked her what really happened and before I could say anything else she asked me if I had insurance!
I told her to get to france , I never gave any permission to touch my horse and told her if I ever saw her on my side of the yard I was going to drop kick her to the thoat! Turns out she was the one stealing my hay as the YO caught her with cctv and sacked her on the spot. Never saw her again but if I do my leg will still go down her throat. it took BB 6 months to be fine being turned out after that!

 

[paddy555]

. When asking around was told everyone was lovely and they all had a chat, which until in the situation you can only take at face value.

I don't understand this. Are you hoping to sue because people were unfriendly to you?

I have no problem with mud in general, it’s good for the soul I do have a problem with there being so much mud that it is physically impossible to get into the field. The mud has liquidised for at least 10 meters into the field and a few meters in front and essentially it “sucks” you in and you cannot move at all. With a field full of horses this is incredibly dangerous, especially at bring in time. If you go in and they push or run you will be trampled, I have fallen many times but luckily not with a horse.

I don't suppose the YO liked the mud very much either, none of us do in winter. However that is surely just part and parcel of keeping horses.
The other alternative is for people to keep horses stabled all the time which many also object to.

I'm also not sure what actual loss you have. You may not have liked it there, perhaps they were not very nice to you but I cannot see what you are hoping to gain. If they charged for things you didn't order then presumably you didn't pay for them. Not sure why you didn't insist on a contract.

 

[nagblagger]

BB I would have been the same, livid!

 

[17carrot]

I’ll certainly update on where I go for info and what they recommend. Gaining money from this is of no internet to me. I’m looking into reporting fraudulent claims and scamming in the equestrian industry. Thinking Citizens advice may also be better than BHS.

 

[paddy555]

this is the list of equine lawyers usually posted (taken from one of Peter Natt's posts)

Contact details of solicitors below:

Actons
Tel: 0115 91002200 Caroline Bowler

Hannah Salter (Sale and Purchase disputes, Loans, Livery and Facility Hire Agreements)

Waddington Turner Wall Solicitors

Michael Bower Equine Law

Mark Carter
White Bowker Solicitors
Tel: 01962 844440
www.wandb.co.uk
mark.carter@wandb.co.uk

Helen Niebuhr
Darbys Solicitors
52 New Inn Hall Street
Oxford
OX1 2QD
Tel: 01865 811 7000
01865 811712
www.equine-law.net
E: equine@darbys.co.uk

Jaqcui Fulton Equine Law
Tel: 0121 308 5915
jf@equinelawuk.co.uk
www.equinelawuk.co.uk

Hannah Campbell (Specialise in compensation cases)
Tel: 01446 794196 (Specialises in traffic accidents involving horses)
www.horsesolicitor.co.uk
info@horse solicitor

Hanna Campbell
Horse Solicitors
(Took on case in 2013 on behalf of Claire Berry-Jones) involving making a claim Motor Insurers Bureau (MIB)

Deborah Hargreaves
Edmondson Hall Solicitors and Sports Lawyers
25 Exeter Road
Newmarket
Suffolk
CB8 8AR
Tel: 01638 560556
Tel: 01638 564483
E: solicitors@edmondsonhall.com
E: ah@edmondsonhall.com
www.edmondsonhall.com/page/1r6ef/Home/partner.html
Wrote an article on The Legal pitfalls of Buying and Selling Horses

Elizabeth Simpson Senior Solicitor at law firm Andrew M Jackson
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk
enquiries@andrewjackson.co.uk

David Forbes or Belinda Walkinshaw
Pickworths Solicitors
6 Victoria Street
St Albans
Hertfordshire
AL1 3JB
01727 844511

Mark de-villamar Roberts
Langleys Solicitors Equine Law Group
Tel: 01904 683051
E: mark.Roberts@langleys.com
www.equinelawyers.co.uk

Elizabeth Simpson
Senior Solicitor
Andrew Jackson
Yorkshire
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk

Richmond Solicitors
13-15 High Street
Keynsham
Bristol
BS31 1DP
Tel: 0117 986 9555
Fax: 0117 986 8680
enquiries@richmonssolicitorsco.uk

Jacqui Fulton
Giselle Robinson Solicitors
Inderjit Gill
Jacksons Specialist Equine Solicitor
(Represented Gaynor Goodall in an accident on a bridleway on Tameside County Court 01 February 2010).

Knights Solicitors
Tunbridge Wells
Tel: 01892 537311
www.knights-solicitors.co.uk
Work with GRC Commercial Bailiffs
Senior partner very good on equine matters

Horse Solicitor
Tel: 01446 794 196
info@horsesolicitor.co.uk
www.horsesolicitor.com

Cathryn Godfrey
Irwin Mitchell
Specialises in Horse Riders injured on the roads

Mary Ann Reay Charles or Chris Shaw
Shaw and Co Solicitors
Equine Law Specialists
Tel: 0800 019 1248
info@shawandco.com
www.shawandco.com

 

[scruffyponies]

Nothing in writing.
The only evidence will come from the other liveries, who have said they are happy with each other, and with the yard. One felt that your horse needed care which you weren't providing to the extent that she took it on herself to do the work.

I don't think you have a leg to stand on, and that there are two sides to every story.

 

[blitznbobs]

I’ll certainly update on where I go for info and what they recommend. Gaining money from this is of no internet to me. I’m looking into reporting fraudulent claims and scamming in the equestrian industry. Thinking Citizens advice may also be better than BHS.

I can see the headlines now…

Field in winter gets muddy…

and

they were mean to me… who do you want to report them to? as far as I know there is no “Livery police”

what you are describing is what the legal profession would probably describe as “puff” (ie things like a car sales man describing a car as “perfect for you” or “a superb colour” and generally forms no part of a contract. you can’t sue someone cos someone else does something you don’t like (the other livery) nor cos they don’t like you…

 

[WelshD]

Someone once said some wise words on here - don't go to court solely on a matter of principle.

If you have paid for services you haven't received then use the small claims court process if necessary

if they are operating using clear cases of false advertising report them to trading standards

if your horse got injured due to their negligence then ask for the details of their insurer

if none of those apply then chalk it up to experience.
You can be honest if people ask you where you recommend and if feeling particularly bitter about the experience there is a group on Facebook where you can tell stories of bad livery yards

beyond that learn from the experience, get details of packages upfront in writing and choose a well organised and maintained yard

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

One word: MOVE!!!

Suck it all up and just GO.

Because good grief you'll end up spending a huge amount of ££££ if you get a Legal in; and you may not get anywhere at the end of the day.

 

[splashgirl45]

With no written contract it’s your word against theirs and I doubt you will get anywhere with any sort of legal claim… similar happened to me and I gave notice and left. The YO asked why and I told her, she then tried to make it up to me by providing what I wanted but I felt it was too late, so left…

 

[Tracking_up]

If this is your sole intention (and like the others, I can't see that any legal 'claim' existing)

I’m looking into reporting fraudulent claims and scamming in the equestrian industry.

then

if they are operating using clear cases of false advertising report them to trading standards

This was my thought as well ....

 

[paddy555]

I find this post strange. I don't know anyone in these current hard financial times who has money to spare to make a point. In this case a lot of money as this is going to need professional representation to get anywhere although I doubt it has any legs at all.

However most people who ask this sort of questions are either newbies who come on specifically for some help or established posters with a history of posting and we can see how the problem has come about.

This poster joined in 2016 but no other posts I could find. When I first read about someone wanting to waste money like this I thought troll but obviously not as they are a long time member.


Perhaps it's just me.

 

[Flyermc]

I work in H&S and if you believe that the yard is in breach of its H&S requirements you can report it to the HSE. If you have evidence, you can send this along with the details of your complaint.

There are lots of H&S requirements that your yard would need to comply with, to both its employees, customers, subcontractors, visitors, members of the public and even trespassers.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Like many others, I am struggling to see that you have any legal claim here. So I'd advise you think carefully about what outcome you actually want, and the best way to get it.

No damages apply as you were not injured so fininacial compensation is a non starter.
The other livery is nothing to do wth the YO. Unless she harmed your horse, I am not sure what outcome you are after, wrt to her doing 'jobs' you did not want.
I assume you did not pay unreasonable charges, so they are not relevant.
If you are concerned about safety, then the H&S at Work Act might apply - if grooms are at risk getting horses in and out.
If you want to stop them exaggerating their benefits/what they offer, then there are 'Dodgy Livery Yard' sites. But beware of a backlash as they presumably have their own perspective on this. There are bad livery yards, but there are also bad liveries. And you don't want to be labelled as a trouble maker or a PITA
Don't confuse annoying, unpleasant or unfair with unlawful.

If there is no reaslistic way to get an outcome you want, then cut your losses and let it go.