Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/266011.html
Seems he believed the claims of the product.........
Seems he believed the claims of the product.........
Equiblock....oh dear.....
- Thread starter Gonetofrance
- Start date
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Wow, what do you know, I inadvertently called it on the other thread.
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
I know there are now two formulations in Canada, perhaps the new one is a different substance that doesn't test.
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
I know there are now two formulations in Canada, perhaps the new one is a different substance that doesn't test.
flyingfeet
Well-Known Member
Err 1st ingredient
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16202
Equi-Block® Liniments by Miracle Corp
* Contains capsaicin to absorb deep into joints and muscles
* For temporary relief of minor aches and pains
* Great for discomfort caused by overexertion
What a muppet!
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16202
Equi-Block® Liniments by Miracle Corp
* Contains capsaicin to absorb deep into joints and muscles
* For temporary relief of minor aches and pains
* Great for discomfort caused by overexertion
What a muppet!
kerilli
Well-Known Member
well, if it's true that 4 horses tested positive to it...!
i can't believe they're so stupid tbh. i was told in 1993 (when the testing wasn't as rigorous as now, i guess) to only use saline on a horse in the run-up to an FEI competition because it just wasn't worth the risk!
i can't believe they're so stupid tbh. i was told in 1993 (when the testing wasn't as rigorous as now, i guess) to only use saline on a horse in the run-up to an FEI competition because it just wasn't worth the risk!
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately one of the major selling points of the product is it "does not test" written right on the bottle and true for race horses.
Apparently not true for show horses.
Quite a good article: http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/beijing-games/story.html?id=740087
Apparently not true for show horses.
Quite a good article: http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/beijing-games/story.html?id=740087
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
How gutting for them if they thought they were doing the right thing, tho'........
lucretia
Well-Known Member
yes exactly and i dont know many people myself incluuded who know every substance on the prohibited list. i am happy if it says FEI approved or something similar so i would have been caught out as well and would now be suing the manufacturers. and bear in mind that all these horses were tested clean on arrival. in athens all the posiitve teats i think were for diffrent things, ther must be a reason why four tested for this. and bear in mind that they didnt test all horses after the initial rounds so if four were caught there are almost certainly more who got away with it unless they tested again today before it all got out.
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
If your talking about American testing, racehorses can run on bute there!!!!!!!
At the Olympics horses are not tested on arrival, tests are done on all winners down to four place and randomly by a computer draw or if a horse is suspected of something
At the Olympics horses are not tested on arrival, tests are done on all winners down to four place and randomly by a computer draw or if a horse is suspected of something
kerilli
Well-Known Member
and Lasix...!
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
I have just told my husband (international endurance trainer and rider) the name of the product that was used, and he laughed his head off.
In his words and I quote,
"These morons are international riders and they do not know that equiblock tested, they are not fit to represent their countries at national level let alone international level."
with more laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apparently the product has been around for years and was banned by the FEI many years ago.
In his words and I quote,
"These morons are international riders and they do not know that equiblock tested, they are not fit to represent their countries at national level let alone international level."
with more laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apparently the product has been around for years and was banned by the FEI many years ago.
cefyl
Well-Known Member
I mentioned on the 1st thread about this it being the main ingredient in muscle rubs like Tiger Balm, etc. Well well, Lynch et al have been sadly caught out by looking at labeling in believing it. I for one think it is a shame as it has tarnished the image of SJ yet again but in all fairness for all looks like a somewhat honest error.
Someone mentioned it is hard to keep track of all banned substances, that is so true. The responsibility of ACCURATE labeling is down to the seller of the product if it is bought in Europe. Even if the manufacturer is in the USA and labels it such and such a thing it still falls into the distributor / seller in Europe to take the blame if false claims are made.
Cortaflex (or similar) importer was caught out under the VMD labeling laws a few years ago and got a heafty fine. You only have to look at the shelf in a tack shop with all the "natural" stuff now and many of the ingredients would actually give a positive under FEI rules.
Worst thing is that under British law companies are not even required to list ingredients in topical applications like this for animals. Even lfy sprays are exempt though those do have to HSE approved. Shampoos, conditioners, cooling leg sprays, body rinses, etc - CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Someone mentioned it is hard to keep track of all banned substances, that is so true. The responsibility of ACCURATE labeling is down to the seller of the product if it is bought in Europe. Even if the manufacturer is in the USA and labels it such and such a thing it still falls into the distributor / seller in Europe to take the blame if false claims are made.
Cortaflex (or similar) importer was caught out under the VMD labeling laws a few years ago and got a heafty fine. You only have to look at the shelf in a tack shop with all the "natural" stuff now and many of the ingredients would actually give a positive under FEI rules.
Worst thing is that under British law companies are not even required to list ingredients in topical applications like this for animals. Even lfy sprays are exempt though those do have to HSE approved. Shampoos, conditioners, cooling leg sprays, body rinses, etc - CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
All horses were voluntarily tested on arrival this year in HK. It was a new idea, made possible by the access to the HKJC facilities.
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
I think this product is providing a convenient excuse. I dont believe for a second believe his story and strongly suspect the capsaicin was being used in other ways....
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
Why would you use something that wasn't FEI approved without checking it out throughly first?
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you use something that wasn't FEI approved without checking it out throughly first?
[/ QUOTE ]
You wouldnt. You may, however, take an ignorant chance on something which makes your horse jump clear and then cross your fingers very tightly
Why would you use something that wasn't FEI approved without checking it out throughly first?
[/ QUOTE ]
You wouldnt. You may, however, take an ignorant chance on something which makes your horse jump clear and then cross your fingers very tightly
lucretia
Well-Known Member
iliked you ceyfl as you are clearly well informed! not many people know that british law does not REQUIRE ingredient listing on certain animal products and feedstuff although if it has it it must be accurate. denis lynch has probably travelled as much as anyone in europe this season and could have bought htat product anywhere, it was an easy mistake to make and i cannot believe as his owners have just forked out 5 million for Oki Doki that he would want o be pissing them off, let alone the shame of the whole episode.
Nor can i believe that Tony Andre Hansons groom would deliberately break the rules, she is as dilligent as anyone i cn think of and what little i know of her rider, he pretty much leaves it to her to get the horse ready.
I would usually be the last one to stick up for anyone caught in a doping scandal but the riders cannot have been unaware that the hong kong jockey club has on site stesting facilities (at athens the samples had to be sent to Switzerand or france i believe) so any tests would be proved within days not weeks.
it is too odd that all the tests are for the same substance and if it is that common there need to be threshold levels for it as it must be very easy to administer by accident. this isnt something that you need to inject to administer or even feed, its contined in many common or garden ointments and gels and such like that we use all the time. I know exactly where they are coming from when they are talking about misuse and in stronger solutions its most effective but Tony's for example is a white grey with its legs clipped showjump style down to the skin, surely if anything was being applied ENOUGH to PUPPOSELY AFFECT its performance, the steward checking boots and legs might have notoice something amiss?
Nor can i believe that Tony Andre Hansons groom would deliberately break the rules, she is as dilligent as anyone i cn think of and what little i know of her rider, he pretty much leaves it to her to get the horse ready.
I would usually be the last one to stick up for anyone caught in a doping scandal but the riders cannot have been unaware that the hong kong jockey club has on site stesting facilities (at athens the samples had to be sent to Switzerand or france i believe) so any tests would be proved within days not weeks.
it is too odd that all the tests are for the same substance and if it is that common there need to be threshold levels for it as it must be very easy to administer by accident. this isnt something that you need to inject to administer or even feed, its contined in many common or garden ointments and gels and such like that we use all the time. I know exactly where they are coming from when they are talking about misuse and in stronger solutions its most effective but Tony's for example is a white grey with its legs clipped showjump style down to the skin, surely if anything was being applied ENOUGH to PUPPOSELY AFFECT its performance, the steward checking boots and legs might have notoice something amiss?
cefyl
Well-Known Member
I would agree that particularly on a grey a topical application of capsaicin containing product may show up. It does can stain due to the natural chemical compounds, even an initially colourless rub often turns a reddish tinge when in contacy with clothing or after being on skin for a while.
There are feed supplements in the US called Gold as Sun and Black as Knight both colour enhancers that contain it. Other products there like Magic Cushion hoof packing. Just to name a few and I'll bet you could if you looked but them in Europe but you would have to read pretty hard to see the contents.
There are feed supplements in the US called Gold as Sun and Black as Knight both colour enhancers that contain it. Other products there like Magic Cushion hoof packing. Just to name a few and I'll bet you could if you looked but them in Europe but you would have to read pretty hard to see the contents.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you use something that wasn't FEI approved without checking it out throughly first?
[/ QUOTE ]
You wouldnt. You may, however, take an ignorant chance on something which makes your horse jump clear and then cross your fingers very tightly
[/ QUOTE ]
You would have to be feeling very lucky to use something that you don't have a clue what ingredients it contains.
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you use something that wasn't FEI approved without checking it out throughly first?
[/ QUOTE ]
You wouldnt. You may, however, take an ignorant chance on something which makes your horse jump clear and then cross your fingers very tightly
[/ QUOTE ]
You would have to be feeling very lucky to use something that you don't have a clue what ingredients it contains.
RachelB
Well-Known Member
I'm with Boss - I know if I had an Olympic horse that I *didn't* want to "dope" on purpose or accidentally, I wouldn't let any prohibited substance within 100 miles of my horse let alone take such a risk by applying one to my horse's back. I know a certain dressage rider who didn't let anyone else touch her horse during the run-up to the Olympics in case of accidental contamination with anything at all. It does all sound like a bit of a convenient excuse...
pixie
Well-Known Member
Surely the TEAM VET would know that the substance was banned - and if you're competing at that level then I would have thought you'd ask the the vet before giving the horse ANYTHING...
Gonetofrance
Well-Known Member
I for one think he's made a mistake...........if the product states it's negative testing, he probably believed it. It is apparently only recently that the test for capsaicin has been established. Who knows, that may have had a bearing on it.
I just cannot believe it was deliberate...............
I just cannot believe it was deliberate...............
cefyl
Well-Known Member
< You would have to be feeling very lucky to use something that you don't have a clue what ingredients it contains.
>
Well if you buy products off your tack shop shelf for use on your horse in the UK such as shampoo, coat conditioner, hoof oil, leg ice, stain remover, fly repellant, etc then you must feel really lucky all of the time. There is absolutely no requirement by law for manufacturers or retailers to show INCI listings of ingredients in animal products. Even the labeling check for correct and not misleading wording by the VMD is voluntary. Fly repellants for all the HSE stipulation about pesticides licencing still do not have to list ingredients.
You just do not know what you are putting onto and into your horse.
May surprise many that lavender is under the banned substance list for USEF events due to the nature of it's chemical composition. As the FEI list terpenes as a banned substance it is good to bear in mind that many lavender extracts are classed as High Terpene.
>
Well if you buy products off your tack shop shelf for use on your horse in the UK such as shampoo, coat conditioner, hoof oil, leg ice, stain remover, fly repellant, etc then you must feel really lucky all of the time. There is absolutely no requirement by law for manufacturers or retailers to show INCI listings of ingredients in animal products. Even the labeling check for correct and not misleading wording by the VMD is voluntary. Fly repellants for all the HSE stipulation about pesticides licencing still do not have to list ingredients.
You just do not know what you are putting onto and into your horse.
May surprise many that lavender is under the banned substance list for USEF events due to the nature of it's chemical composition. As the FEI list terpenes as a banned substance it is good to bear in mind that many lavender extracts are classed as High Terpene.
Puppy
Well-Known Member
WOAH!!
As a law student, who is especially interested in tort law, and a huge showjumping fan I shall be *very* interested as to how this pans out... And I think this scenario, sadly for the sport
shall be v much dragged out
Jeez I'm shocked, but I'd bet this shall be an ongoing discussion for some time...
I *really* do think that if the product made assured claims that it was "drug test ok", then regardless of whether or not the rider knew/thought/suspected otherwise then they shall have their *sred sued something crazy!!
It is a professional assurance - regardless of what a rider *maybe* or *ought* to have known - if that is what they claim on the product, then that is enough legal backing for a case..... Or many even!
If all the riders excluded now contest on these grounds I'm sure they could cripple the company!!
It shall be *very* interesting to see if the other disqualified riders "say" that they've used the same product!!
I have a feeling there shall be *much* more to come on the topic yet.....!
What a shame for showjumping
As a law student, who is especially interested in tort law, and a huge showjumping fan I shall be *very* interested as to how this pans out... And I think this scenario, sadly for the sport
I *really* do think that if the product made assured claims that it was "drug test ok", then regardless of whether or not the rider knew/thought/suspected otherwise then they shall have their *sred sued something crazy!!
It shall be *very* interesting to see if the other disqualified riders "say" that they've used the same product!!
I have a feeling there shall be *much* more to come on the topic yet.....!
What a shame for showjumping
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
I'm not convinced either that he used this without knowing what it did, I'm guessing he thought he would get away with it and this is a convernient excuse. Think I'll go for my british nationality tonight!
Plonker. Interesting to see the other ones stories...
Plonker. Interesting to see the other ones stories...
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I think anyone who uses it know what it does - that's on the bottle, too. What they may not have thought is an over the counter topical liniment (which most people don't THINK of as a drug) would show up in a blood test.
Now there may be ground for banning it as a topical preparation on it's painkilling properties but that doesn't seem to be the accusation here.
I'm curious, has anyone seen/heard of it being used as a counterirritant? I presume it must be given the accusations but I've only ever seen or heard of it used in exactly the opposite way. Seems an odd thing to use regularly if it might have a "deadening" effect. Of course if it was used as a sensitiser then that's another matter. How do they test for topical agents? Is it visual only? I wonder if they've taken skin/hair samples from the accused horses as well?
I guess we shall see . . .
Now there may be ground for banning it as a topical preparation on it's painkilling properties but that doesn't seem to be the accusation here.
I'm curious, has anyone seen/heard of it being used as a counterirritant? I presume it must be given the accusations but I've only ever seen or heard of it used in exactly the opposite way. Seems an odd thing to use regularly if it might have a "deadening" effect. Of course if it was used as a sensitiser then that's another matter. How do they test for topical agents? Is it visual only? I wonder if they've taken skin/hair samples from the accused horses as well?
I guess we shall see . . .
skewbaldpony
Well-Known Member
Pixie, in passing, can I say at risk of having my head bitten off, that I would probably let my daughter have the odd look at HHO were it not for things like your siggie!
weevil
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I would agree that particularly on a grey a topical application of capsaicin containing product may show up. It does can stain due to the natural chemical compounds, even an initially colourless rub often turns a reddish tinge when in contacy with clothing or after being on skin for a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily. Research grade capsaicin comes in the form of a white powder which dissolves (with difficulty) to a colourless or slightly cloudy solution and it doesn't change colour even after being on skin for several hours.
I would agree that particularly on a grey a topical application of capsaicin containing product may show up. It does can stain due to the natural chemical compounds, even an initially colourless rub often turns a reddish tinge when in contacy with clothing or after being on skin for a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily. Research grade capsaicin comes in the form of a white powder which dissolves (with difficulty) to a colourless or slightly cloudy solution and it doesn't change colour even after being on skin for several hours.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
yes but i believe weevil that to make that applicable it needs to be heated up quite sinficantly doesnt it? i find it hard to believe that riders or grooms were in a posotion to be carrying rund packets of anonymous white powder and that in the stables were one tack room got shared by a whole team that anyone would have been able to cook the stuff up on the quiet.
also every last drop of feed, medications, supplements etc etc had to be declared in a massive long form, which were supposed to be checked by teams, their vets, and then chinese customs etc.
amazing that four diferent people from four different countries all managed to get the stuff in and then prepare it, it they were not using a branded product like equiblock.
also every last drop of feed, medications, supplements etc etc had to be declared in a massive long form, which were supposed to be checked by teams, their vets, and then chinese customs etc.
amazing that four diferent people from four different countries all managed to get the stuff in and then prepare it, it they were not using a branded product like equiblock.
weevil
Well-Known Member
I wasn't suggesting that they made up a solution themselves (though it actually doesn't require heating etc) but my point was more that it is possible to have a colourless preparation that wouldn't show up on white bits.
Mind you, if all the medications, supplements etc were checked then it does beg the question why did nobody notice that they were using a danned substance...
Mind you, if all the medications, supplements etc were checked then it does beg the question why did nobody notice that they were using a danned substance...
lucretia
Well-Known Member
exactly. as i keep saying how did it get past four differnt sets of officials for four differnt teams? and if it is so commonly used that four different horses from four different teams OF THE ONES THEY TESTED gave a positive sample, then i think there will be a case either for contamination or accidental non premeditated use.
the FEI were supposed to be introducing some sort of thermal imager thing in the boot check area wonder if they bothered. and would a scraping from the legs concerned make a difference if the stuff is trandermal anyway?
the FEI were supposed to be introducing some sort of thermal imager thing in the boot check area wonder if they bothered. and would a scraping from the legs concerned make a difference if the stuff is trandermal anyway?