Equine Dentist - why???!

[minesadouble]

Do people who wouldn't dream of using an unqualified Vet or Farrier seem to think it quite acceptable to use an unqualified EDT??
I just don't get it - would you be happy to let an unqualified dentist loose on your own teeth?
We have a large livery yard and had one dentist who was 'qualified in a non EU country' who left one of the livery horse's teeth in a dreadful state. PLEASE check this list;-

https://www.beva.org.uk/_uploads/documents/baedt-member-list-7-may-2015.jpg

And make sure your EDT is on there, for your horse's sake!

 

[PorkChop]

I'm ashamed to say that I hadn't checked to see if my new dentist was qualified - though he is on the list!

I freely admit that before I moved I used a chap that used to come over from New Zealand - never checked whether he was qualified either.

In answer to your question I am not sure why I am prepared to use an unqualified dentist - tbh I have had a couple of not so nice experiences with dentists that I knew were qualified so in my case I would rather go on recommendation.

 

[ester]

I would always have agreed

but my dentist isn't on the current list, he always was previously though (I was looking for someone else when I noticed he was missing). I think because of recent health problems he has perhaps not kept his CPD up, that wouldn't stop me using him though or anyone else from recommending him.

 

[Dumbo]

Glad to see the EDT I use is on that list - Hadn't thought to check previously but had gone on recommendations.

 

[RubysGold]

Mine isn't on there :-S
I just assumed he was registered as lots of people said good things about him. He has always done a good job and had a nice quiet attitude with the horses

 

[muckypony]

I wouldn't use an unqualified one, but I would continue to use mine if he was removed from the list for not keeping up his CPD for some reason, as I know him and think he is great.

 

[hihosilver]

I would only use a vet for teeth.

 

[ycbm]

Because those of us who have owned horses long enough know that it is a very new thing to use qualified dentists, and that all that the vast majority of horses ever need is the sharp edges knocked off once a year or so with a rasp and that's a pretty simple, though physically tiring, thing to do. Unlike our own teeth, horses' teeth grow and grind down naturally over their lifetime.

There is mounting evidence that new techniques like opening up diastemas are causing problems years later. An edt qualified vet dentist scalped one of my horse's teeth so badly that he didn't need so much as a point taken off for three years. There are frequent reports on this forum of horses who won't eat after having their teeth done. And I can't help smiling every time someone posts about paying a dentist to remove a three year old's caps. Leave them, they fall out all by themselves!

If anyone knows a dentist in the north Midlands that they would recommend, qualified or not, who won't take an electric tool to my horses teeth, can you let me know? My last one has unfortunately retired.

 

[Fun Times]

Equally being on that list does not make you good at your job. I have had first hand horrible experience of one of the dentists listed. If the only options were to have that person do my horse again or to never ever have my horse's teeth looked at, I would pick the latter.

 

[case895]

I would only use a vet for teeth.

I would never use a vet for teeth. Vets get a brief training on dental work. Qualified EDTs do a full training on it.

 

[spacefaer]

ycbm - what do you call North Midlands? i can thoroughly recommend Mat Carter (who is qualified btw!) who is Staffordshire based, but travels. He uses manual or power tools - depending on horse/owner/work needed.

 

[spacefaer]

I would never use a vet for teeth. Vets get a brief training on dental work. Qualified EDTs do a full training on it.

IME, most vets only do the easy front 2/3rds of the mouth. They tend to miss the back 1/3rd.

 

[ycbm]

I would never use a vet for teeth. Vets get a brief training on dental work. Qualified EDTs do a full training on it.

I have two vet practices who have edt qualified vets available, but they sedate whether the horse needs it or not. I don't want my horses sedated to have their teeth rasped.

 

[ycbm]

ycbm - what do you call North Midlands? i can thoroughly recommend Mat Carter (who is qualified btw!) who is Staffordshire based, but travels. He uses manual or power tools - depending on horse/owner/work needed.

Staffs might be ok, thanks I'll look him up.

 

[minesadouble]

YCBM - I too have have had horses for longer than I care to remember - it is over 40 years since I had my first pony! Therefore, as I'm sure you can imagine I too remember the days when the farrier would give a horse a run around the mouth with a rasp and its teeth would be 'done'!
However, we have one local dentist that quite a few people still use because 'he doesn't need to use a gag'!!!
Also one of our older TBs has previously had his teeth done by a lovely man (no sarcasm intended there BTW) and always stood like an absolute lamb. The first time he objected (with our qualified EDT) we commented on how good he had been in the past and were informed that the reason he had always stood so quietly was the previous dentist had done so little the horse had nothing to object to!!
We do only have one (out of 9) that requires routine sedation for teeth and out EDT has told us that this will always be the case as he has such a small tight mouth that the gag is uncomfortable for him to tolerate. I understand why someone wouldn't want each of their horses routinely sedated where it is not necessary, however I am equally incredibly suspicious of any equine dentist who claims they never need any horse sedated.

 

[Equi]

If i were to use the only one on the list i would be waiting 5 years for a EDT visit. I have contacted said EDT many times, never had a call back yet. I have HAD to use others. So far i have never had an issue with them. But what the hell do i know.

 

[muckypony]

And I can't help smiling every time someone posts about paying a dentist to remove a three year old's caps. Leave them, they fall out all by themselves!

That's madness!!

I once had a vet tell me that my 9 month old was rubbing his cheeks because his teeth needed rasping down.... The very reason that I will never let a vet near my horses teeth!

 

[brighteyes]

BEVA qualification is the British Equine Veterinary Association (the UK and only body) allowed to devise, set and examine anyone wanting to qualify to their standards. For anyone interested, the requirements for this can be found in an exacting list on their pages, but the most interesting one is they require a candidate to have treated for category one conditions at least 300 horses, with no assistance on 'how' to do this! Also, and interestingly, vets are also invited to sit this exam. I'm not sure how you can find out what training and practice a vet gets on dentistry during their time at vet school but I'd be amazed if it was 300 horses.

Anyway, yes, qualification and CPD can be considered as preferable, but it's no guarantee of a good job. The only analogy I can use is 'after the driving test' and while I am not saying cowboying is rife, each EDT will have their own ideals and is free to continue in their own style post exam. That might explain some of the comments above? In any case, who is the owner to judge, really, on the work done. The horse should be able to eat grass immediately post treatment, some take a short while to be able to eat hay/lage and most can eat hard feed easily too. Over and above that, can you really tell?
As regards sedation, some horses are a danger to themselves and the EDT/vet. These are quickly identified and a sensible EDT and owner will agree sedation to be the safest and kindest option all round. This can be IV or orally and needs a vet, and makes the whole procedure much less likely to end in injury. The vast majority can be done quite satisfactorily without sedation, though and this shouldn't be looked on with suspicion. In my opinion alone, vets tend to sedate not least because one false move during a physically exerting and not particularly easy procedure can cost them dearly in time off. They can't really afford this. Plus, it keeps the patient still, easy to treat and makes the vet available sooner for the next visit. Down to economics I'm afraid. No EDT should be going for heroics and all should be happy to explain exactly what they have found, intend to do, allow you to see or feel if possible the mouth and answer any questions following treatment, if they arise.

Currently, the practice is to do as little as possible and only address anything which might make the patient uncomfortable in its life. For example, non-ridden animals don't need bit-seats and elderly animals may only need minimal attention to preserve the valuable remains of their grinding apparatus! There is a place for electric equipment. You have an older animal with delicate teeth which need a small de-sharpening, say. The force of the hand tools can further loosen the teeth and the procedure takes longer and is possibly more detrimental than helpful overall, if there's no electrical alternative available. Both sorts of tools need different expertise, but the rule is the same with either. Less is more probably every time.

 

[Mooseontheloose]

I believe that most vets now have done exactly the course the dentists have done. Also if sedation is needed you need a vet too, and I'm fairly certain that removal of a wolf tooth can only be done by a vet as it is an invasive procedure.
Should anything go wrong I'm not sure you would have any come back, nor would your insurance (if you have it) be valid against someone not currently on a professional register.
As we keep our horses well into old age, having bred them ourselves, and therefore have full knowledge of their mouth and teeth development, we have rarely had to have anything more than wolf teeth/rasping done. When an old pony had to have a severely abcessed tooth removed it was done at home under anaesthetic in the full knowledge of all risks involved.
I have seen an excellent dentist at work, I thought he was incredible working his way through a large yard of racehorses, but I've also seen the results of another one, which took the horse a long time to recover fro.
At least with my vet I know he's seen my horses from the beginning and can tell if there are any severe changes and that I can always ask for a referral if I'm in doubt about anything.
And please preserve us from over zealous use of electric rasps - the one I saw being used was like giving a monkey a razor blade.

 

[brighteyes]

Moose you sound both knowledgeable and experienced and your horses have start to finish lives with you, therefore you know their full history. Many aren't in either position and there are some excellent EDT's out there, both qualified and non examined and certified by BEVA. I think it will be in all EDT's interests to formally qualify as the law rightly tightens around essentially lay people working on horses' teeth.

 

[Flame_]

This is one of those horrible areas of horsecare where you just have to place your trust in the hands of the "experts", and don't we all know how many "expert professionals" in other areas completely suck at whatever they're supposed to be experts at. Depressing.

 

[ester]

Due to said ill health my vet actually did my boy last time, sedated because yes he is a bit of a fidget/wriggly ******. She said my dentist must have the patience of a saint . He is also built like a brick ***** house so a 14.2 welsh cob trying to barge through him doesn't really have much impact .

I didn't mind her sedating (apparently he always was before he came to me) as it meant that with him she could do a better job. And I can see why they do when it is quite so easy for them to and makes their life easier.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Of three vets who "did" my boys teeth, all used hand rasps and only one did the back teeth properly [they were bad because the previous vet had not done a good job]. One did not even have a proper speculum.
I used a newly qualified EDT, probably his first client, he used hand tools in his first year and later power tools, teeth were done properly. Unfortunately he took on an apprentice whose main role was to take incoming calls, he never called back, after two calls I gave up.
I think if you have a good EDT you will know because the horse is relaxed and the EDT will rasp the teeth properly,, it takes time and requires him to check frequently.
Waving a rasp around is irrelevant.

 

[Mooseontheloose]

Brighteyes, I've had many liveries and visitors too, and I'm not denying that I'm sure there are some very good dentists out there, but the question posted was Equine Dentist - why? which I was trying to answer from my own perspective.
Unfortunately as another poster has put, we are in the hands of others when it comes to vets/dentists/farriers and so on (lawyers, doctors, dentists, teachers for ourselves too!) and so we have to work out the best thing for ourselves. I'm old enough, and feel fairly comfortable that I've now experienced enough, to know if I really had a problem with a horse's mouth, and I do feel that we leap to conclusions sometimes without really going through a logical system of working out what can be wrong.
Jane Thelwall wrote in the 'Less than Perfect Horse' that mouth issues often stem from the hock - the horse doesn't carry itself therefore uses it's head to balance, becomes uncomfortable, starts a head/mouth issue. I think there is a great deal of sense in this.
I also think if a horse has access to adequate grazing, some weeds and forage, then providing there is not some serious underlying issue all their mouths will need is a light rasp once a year,
whether by luck or judgement we've never needed bit seating, or any other more radical procedures for our horses, which have competed to a reasonable level with some success.
Feeding from the ground so they have a natural grazing position also helps.
I've never had to have caps knocked off baby teeth, and at the other extreme have had several horses into their thirties with very few teeth at all!

 

[ycbm]

Moose I completely agree with you.

Vets used to do teeth without sedation, why do the two I could use now refuse to do them without sedation? I understand why from their own point of view, but what about the owner's - cost - and the horse's?. I've seen several horses over the years seek out dandelion and plantain - detox plants - after sedation. In my opinion it's unethical to use drugs on a horse which doesn't need them, especially intravenous ones which carry risks like introducing infection. I think that if they don't want to do teeth without sedation then they should leave the horses that don't need sedation to be done by an edt, qualified or otherwise, that doesn't need it either.


PS What is it with bit seats? If you look at how the bit interacts with the mouth and sits on the bars, why would you need to put a dip at the front of the top and bottom cheek teeth where they meet? If my bit was sitting there either my hands or my horse's head would be in a very strange place!

 

[ester]

I thought bit seats were somewhat out of fashion now? I do agree ycmb but I guess that's part of the decision the owner makes. I'm certainly hoping my dentist will be well enough to do Frank next time round, so will be without sedation. I guess the same reason I didn't ship the horses up to the vet school when I was working on site to be done free on their dental training days because they would be sedated.

 

[Mooseontheloose]

Would you have been happy to let your horses be used on an equine dentition training course? Everyone has to learn to do these things.
ycbm - Do all vets sedate as a matter of course? Mine only will if he's very uncertain or horse seems very stressed and then will give a light sedation, but never for just an annual inspection.
However, one vet in the practice had quite a serious head injury with a horse during dental inspection, and another had his back broken (not dental care) by a recalcitrant horse, so I feel they have the right to consider their long term safety too. Mine always wears a helmet now, which I think is just sensible, not wimpy!

 

[ester]

IIRC it was for extra dental training for already qualified vets.

And yes I would, but as neither needed sedating usually (if they did I would have definitely taken them) and they had to stay there 9-5 it just didn't really appeal for me to do it with them. They did always have plenty of takers/were fully booked up.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

My dentist isn't a member of he BAEDT but he trained at the Academy of Equine Dentistry in the US in the days before the BAEDT existed.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Do people who wouldn't dream of using an unqualified Vet or Farrier seem to think it quite acceptable to use an unqualified EDT??
I just don't get it - would you be happy to let an unqualified dentist loose on your own teeth?
We have a large livery yard and had one dentist who was 'qualified in a non EU country' who left one of the livery horse's teeth in a dreadful state. PLEASE check this list;-

https://www.beva.org.uk/_uploads/documents/baedt-member-list-7-may-2015.jpg

And make sure your EDT is on there, for your horse's sake!

Because until recent years they were all unqualified, so people were used to choosing who to use based on their own previous experiences and word of mouth recommendations from friends and some people still do this. I don't know about dentists but in other areas (eg riding instructors and hoof trimmers) there are people who are qualified but do a carp job and people who have no qualifications who do a brilliant job.