Equine "specalists" why such black art?

Gingerwitch

Gingerwitch

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 May 2009
Messages
6,102
Location
My own planet
Visit site
After 40 odd years owning, riding and competing horses, I have noticed a huge change in the way we now care for our equine friends to the way we used to - some of it good but I am honestly wondering who on earth we as fee paying folks can really trust and really believe. I have yet again recently experienced two saddle fitters both with completly different views on the fit of the same saddle to the same horse in the same week. I have personally just been on the receiving end of my new loan horse's teeth - who's teeth were vet done in November, I was there to hold him as a favour, but yet this week have teeth so bad the edt needs horse sedating to have remedial works done. I have see a blacksmith shoe horses so tight that the end of the shoe appears to be pressing on the horses frog - yes and hes qualified and is recomended by local vets for the "specialist shoe", I told the blacksmith about it and it has not happened again and finally a back person out, who says horse is fine, the vet says its not, and the opposite.... ?

I personally have now stepped back from all these "specailists" and ask as many questions as I can, and then I take my information add it to what I feel is right and then make a decison. I have always used people that have been recommended to me, but but even these seem to be getting a good rep and a bad rep depending on who you ask.

How is everyone else getting on out there and i really feel sorry for those of you that are doing your best for your animals but getting duff information from these so called experts.
 
I was thinking exactly the same the other day.

One person says one thing and the other another. Its got very you should do this and you should do that "nanny culture" in the horse world and very money grabbing.
 
I know exactly what you mean, it can be quite disturbing what goes on out in the equine world. As a horse carer nowadays it seems that you need to have a really in depth knowledge of saddle fitting, anatomy and physiology, farriery and nutrition to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff and use people that are good at what they do.

There is often contradictary advice given between professions. I also think that the "professionals" can be complete charlatons and for anything that is considered to be outside the "normal" care of the horse they charge extortionate fees (especially if it is to be covered on insurance). I know of a lady who paid 240 quid for a PAIR of front shoes for her lammi mare, imo that is just taking the mickey!
 
I've had this with saddler's (all Master Saddler's). Taken four to find one that the horses seem happy with and I'm happy with. As to other specialists we've had, including some big names..., well let's just say I'm following your route now OP.
 
So much of that I agree on!

As an owner from the age of 11, it seems things get more and more complicated as time and trends move on. Horses seem to have more problems with back, teeth, weight, health & ridden than they did in the 60's & 70's, or at least it seems that way. Horses did more work for less feed, and the only feeds available widely were straights. Tack was less complicated and the only bits I remember were a snaffle, pelham, kimblewick or double, and every equine went fine in one or the other.

It seems that it's got complicated to be responsible for the health & well being of your horse. What you know or "feel" about the state of your horse is often contradicted by experts half your age, who in turn are contradicted by other experts...
 
I find as someone relatively new to horse ownership that I am utterly bamboozled by it all and don't know who to trust! There have been minor issues (behavioural and the odd medical) from time to time with my horse, but every 'expert' who has been to see him has told a different story, and many have been unable to handle him - vets, farriers, dentists, reiki guy, horse psychic (!), different back people, instructors, feed helplines, livery yard owners etc. They all proclaim to have an inexhaustible knowledge of all things equine and most cost at least the price of a new set of shoes for a visit. Aside from the vet who demanded x-rays and nerve blocks at the sight of a bruised sole! 'Natural' horsepeople all require at least £200 plus travel expenses to even look at a horse - erm sorry but if you expect me to part with that kind of money I want guaranteed results!
I don't know who to trust any more, other than my horse himself! Even by using word of mouth, you get conflicting stories from people. Hence I spend most of my time consulting this forum... That enables me to weigh things up sensibly. I also read a lot of books.

I wish there was some form of regulation that encompasses all equine experts, but that's not going to happen. You can't even ask the vet for simple advice any more because they're so afraid of litigation if anything goes wrong...

I guess it just comes down to the stereotype that horse owners all have more money than sense so it's ok to rip us off...
 
i agree, i don't like recommending people to others as every person has a different way, some people prefer straight talking while others prefer things sugar coated etc.

i now go with what i see to work rather than the norm or what others say or do. i used to have my horse shod by a highly talked of farrier, he basically ended up messing my horses feet up so bad that when i had the shoes taken off he was so relieved he actually walked rather than hobbled. since going barefoot i've seen the farrier shoe other horses and don't like the way he deals with them especially if they are tricky.

i've used several vets and they all talked down to me, the vet i use now has proved time and time again that he is passionate about horses and i trust him, i know that if he felt it was time then he would give me his honest opinion. he is a straight talker.

i got told 2 things about my saddle, it's a synthetic wintec, the saddler who sold it to me said that if it gets a bit flat in the panels then he will reflock it for me, i asked another saddler who was at the yard how much she charged for reflocking and she told me it's not worth doing on a synthetic because the flocking balls up and will cause pressure points on the horse, the best solution is to just get a good numnah.

so yeah who do i believe? no one really, i listen to what people say, sometimes ask advice on forums or at least read up about past experiences on a certain subject and then go with my own judgement.
 
Clippy said:
So much of that I agree on!

As an owner from the age of 11, it seems things get more and more complicated as time and trends move on. Horses seem to have more problems with back, teeth, weight, health & ridden than they did in the 60's & 70's, or at least it seems that way. Horses did more work for less feed, and the only feeds available widely were straights.
Click to expand...

My friend still feeds only straights, she shows and hunts and has hunter liveries that are all fed on straights.
 
Years ago my horse had oats, barley, and nuts and I think nuts were a new thing!! No mixes and they were fine. Now everything seems to be allergic to everything including grass!! Can't remember anything having laminitis. They had simple rugs and simple bits and they were fine!!! I used to hack to shows, be there all day and hack home, now I feel I have to give my horse a day off if he goes to dressage in a lorry does a 5 min test and is driven home :D
 
Horses years ago not having laminitis is so untrue!! How flippant and casual you are affording to be wearing your rose tinted glasses.

When they were lame and couldn't walk they were just destroyed without anyone even trying to diagnose laminitis. 'Laminitis' as a word existed once x-rays were deemed popular enough to try it on horses.

I think your comment does veterinary research a huge dis-service. That's like saying, no-one had cancer back in the day.

Navicular is also an emerging discovery and it's causes and effects are still being researched and one day someone will have a breakthrough and save hundreds being put down.
 
In response to OP, you are lucky you can see through the duds.

So many people are after the "Horsey Pound" and owners are too quick to spend...
 
Having had a number of problems with my horse, that went essentially unnoticed by several so-called experts, I am really lucky now to be able to draw on the services of some really good ones, that I trust completely. It is a black art, but recommendations from people whose opinion and experience you trust are the ones, in my experience, that turn out to be the best.

My saddler, physio, trimmer and instructor are all prepared to work together and...shock horror...even speak to each other about the horse and what is going to help him!

I agree with the comments about rose-tinted glasses - my horse would have been either for a bullet or a field ornament before physios etc existed!
 
tallyho! said:
In response to OP, you are lucky you can see through the duds.

So many people are after the "Horsey Pound" and owners are too quick to spend...
Click to expand...

^ that! ^

I'm gobsmacked with some of the 'stuff' that I hear (and read on here too) at present.
Whilst I accept change, and also progression in all forms from veterniary advice & treament to specialists, there is still much 'hocus pocus' (or bullshyte) given out - which is peppered with more eloquent wording......

Yours exasperated............
 
ding-dong-merrily said:
I personally have now stepped back from all these "specailists" and ask as many questions as I can, and then I take my information add it to what I feel is right and then make a decison.
Click to expand...
I started learning as much as I can for this precise reason. :) I'm definitely on a similar planet to you.:D

I do also think it's our responsibility as owners to learn so we can make truly informed choices. The buck does stop with us in the end. :) Knowledge is power too, in the sense that you start to feel less at the mercy of events and more able to makes decisions which are right for your horse.

I suppose a lot is down to the modern speed of sharing information, so we and the specialists are no longer restricted to the local knowledge and their formal teaching. There are so many questions out there and so many different answers...
I have found that tuning my 'listening' skills and listening carefully to my horses is a good way to go as well. :)
 
I tend to go through several before I find one I can trust. Finally got the saddler sorted, I'm on my 3rd EDT, fingers crossed. The worst one for me is the physios. There's a very well known, well recommended one in my area, whole yard uses him think he's amazing etc. Came out to see my new mare who I'd been having real problems with, she was super sensitive, awful and tense to ride, would bomb off and tense as soon as you sat on her. Came to see her, charged me £50, poked around her back a bit then watched her on the lunge and said 'she wouldn't move like that if she was in pain'.

Got another guy out who I trust completely, but comes from a very long way away and he found she was extremely sore in both shoulders and had been for some time, also muscles in her poll/neck, totally screwed up and will have been driving her mad, hence the behavior. Now he looked at her for about 30 seconds and found all of this. How can the first guy be qualified and not spot any of it and tell me my horse is fine?

So now I've got a saddler that comes from 3 hours away, a physio (who is also an instructor so I get him out for that) who comes from about 5 hours away and hopefully the dentist is local.

My gelding is getting his first set of shoes on soon and now I'm worrying about that, I honestly don't know how good our farrier is. Stressful.

Unfortunately people are very quick to just take the word of the professional even if their horse is still telling them something's wrong. Whole yard still uses first physio and various questionable saddlers. And the two dentists the yard uses bad mouth each other frequently, very professional, so I'm using neither.
 
ding-dong-merrily said:
I personally have now stepped back from all these "specailists" and ask as many questions as I can, and then I take my information add it to what I feel is right and then make a decison.
Click to expand...

I think every horse owner needs to do this - your horse is your responsibility, and the more I learn about horses, the more shocked I am that a) there is far more that I don't know that I didn't even know I didn't know and b) people can own and care for horses with such little education, and depend on people who often we don't even check if they are registered with the recognised trade body!

At least with a bit more personal knowledge, we can sense-check everything that is told to us by experts. I now feel confident that I could know if a saddle fitter was talking rubbish or not; 10 years ago I would have accepted their word.

Clippy said:
As an owner from the age of 11, it seems things get more and more complicated as time and trends move on. Horses seem to have more problems with back, teeth, weight, health & ridden than they did in the 60's & 70's, or at least it seems that way. Horses did more work for less feed, and the only feeds available widely were straights. Tack was less complicated and the only bits I remember were a snaffle, pelham, kimblewick or double, and every equine went fine in one or the other.

It seems that it's got complicated to be responsible for the health & well being of your horse. What you know or "feel" about the state of your horse is often contradicted by experts half your age, who in turn are contradicted by other experts...
Click to expand...

I think the thing is that as someone else has pointed out, "we" (the industry & the scientists) know more about equine health than we did even 10 years ago. Yes its got more complicated, but I still believe that that is beneficial to the horse.

noblesteed said:
I find as someone relatively new to horse ownership that I am utterly bamboozled by it all and don't know who to trust! There have been minor issues (behavioural and the odd medical) from time to time with my horse, but every 'expert' who has been to see him has told a different story, and many have been unable to handle him - vets, farriers, dentists, reiki guy, horse psychic (!), different back people, instructors, feed helplines, livery yard owners etc. They all proclaim to have an inexhaustible knowledge of all things equine and most cost at least the price of a new set of shoes for a visit. Aside from the vet who demanded x-rays and nerve blocks at the sight of a bruised sole! 'Natural' horsepeople all require at least £200 plus travel expenses to even look at a horse - erm sorry but if you expect me to part with that kind of money I want guaranteed results!
I don't know who to trust any more, other than my horse himself! Even by using word of mouth, you get conflicting stories from people. Hence I spend most of my time consulting this forum... That enables me to weigh things up sensibly. I also read a lot of books.

I wish there was some form of regulation that encompasses all equine experts, but that's not going to happen. You can't even ask the vet for simple advice any more because they're so afraid of litigation if anything goes wrong...

I guess it just comes down to the stereotype that horse owners all have more money than sense so it's ok to rip us off...
Click to expand...

Again, educating yourself is the best way to avoid being ripped off IMHO. I've got a friend whose horse was recently diagnosed with navicular, and she is probably going to take the barefoot approach to treating it. Shock horror? Not really, she is a very intelligent person who didn't know anything about horse's feet to begin with, but did a shed load of research on the options available to her, and is being guided by her own information gathering from a number of sources (including vet, farrier, trimmer, dietician, groom, yard owner etc etc).

As for regulation its there, in each sector: dentistry, vets, farriery, saddlers. Technically using someone who is a member of the relevant body should mean that they will give you a quality of service you can trust.

Unfortunately, even a small aspect of the horse (feet for example) is a hugely complicated area, and even people with the same qualifications have conflicting opinions on what is ideal and wrong. most of the time its just not black and white as to which theory is correct, unless science has proven beyond all reasonable doubt. Then 10 years later new technology will come into play and we'll find out its all wrong again. :o

All we can do as responsible horse owners is to do our best to make an informed decision for the best for our horse.
 
I am so glad its not just me finding these things out... I suppose its the same with cars and mechanics but at the end of the day the car does not get hurt does it. I wish you could have access to a really good web site that gives honest accounts of the individual - ok some wont be very flattering but if you have 100 good recomendations and one bad one at least you can make a judgement. I hate the way that its never anyones fault, i have never ever heard a vet critisise another vet, back person, edt, blacksmith etc and vice versa, and the fact that these people usually visit at a different time and day they always have the "oh hes just done it" approach.

And i do agree that the most confidence usually comes from those of very young years, whom brag about their lifetimes experiance.... what lifetime when your 21?

I especially worry for the beginers out there - its going to take them a long time to build up the confidence to question things - i know ime nearly 50 and ive only just started to say "hold on a moment" can you explain xy or z more fully
 
So true - we asked our vet time and time again to test our girl for Cushings and he swore blind it wasn't Cushings - farrier said it was - vet said it wasn't - they both met up looked at the horse and the x rays, vet still insisted it wasn't Cushings but we insisted on tests - turns out they came back positive!!
Its like they all have their own but correct opinions - walk them/box rest, remedial shoeing/no shoes, xrays/don't xray. Who to trust anymore?
By the way our vet is a very respected vet around our area and has always always helped us! Our last farrier really ended up messing our girls feet up - he kept telling us that they were correctly shod and to give her time so we did our own research and found out he'd not put heart bars on but normal shoes with a bit welded on!!! We soon collared him and now don't use him anymore.
K x
 
tallyho! said:
Horses years ago not having laminitis is so untrue!! How flippant and casual you are affording to be wearing your rose tinted glasses.

When they were lame and couldn't walk they were just destroyed without anyone even trying to diagnose laminitis. 'Laminitis' as a word existed once x-rays were deemed popular enough to try it on horses.

I think your comment does veterinary research a huge dis-service. That's like saying, no-one had cancer back in the day.

Navicular is also an emerging discovery and it's causes and effects are still being researched and one day someone will have a breakthrough and save hundreds being put down.
Click to expand...

I am not saying there was no lamimitis but there seems to be huge number of horses suffering from this now which I don't rememer back in the day! or none of mine or my friends horses were put down because they couldn't walk. This is probably because people have huge number of different feeds to choose from with varying attributes. There never used to be feeds such as show condition and mixes covered in syrup and full of sugar.

It is the same with all the different saddles, bits, gadets that you can buy; different types of back people, horse whispers, join up, carrot sticks, natural horsemanship. People that will even ring your horse and diagnoes what wrong with over the phone!!!!.

Not saying it was better then just that there are so many things on offer that are not always the best thing for your horse.
 
There is a comment in a 19th century novel by Trolloppe making exactly the same point, i.e. people don't really know anything about horses any more, there are all these 'specialists' about that have no common knowledge, few people really udnerstand horses anymore...might be a bit of a persistent complaint then!
 
The trouble is there are so many " experts" in the horsey world now. It seems to be that you can do a quick course on something and then are let loose to work on other peoples horses. Its finding people that are good at what they do, like everything there are good and bad.

Personally over the years OH and I have built up good relationships with working professionals who we fully trust, its all about respect and trust between yourselves.
 
Sam100 said:
I am not saying there was no lamimitis but there seems to be huge number of horses suffering from this now which I don't rememer back in the day! or none of mine or my friends horses were put down because they couldn't walk. This is probably because people have huge number of different feeds to choose from with varying attributes. There never used to be feeds such as show condition and mixes covered in syrup and full of sugar.
Click to expand...
It may also be because we all have direct access to other horse owners around the world. People tend to write about their problems and worries on forums etc. so reading a forum such as this makes laminitis etc. seem even more common than it may be.

Vets and other specialists are still human beings and have their own ethics, thinking and life expereince as well as interest and ability to remain objective just like the rest of us.

One really positive thing in all this is it's making all of us question things...
 
Apart from the genetic engineering that horses have been subjected to by selective breeding over the years, they haven't really changed much. All the illnesses and diseases they have suffered are very much the same. Vets though have much more knowledge and their diagnoses have got better, as with some cures and remedies.

What has really altered is the way we keep our horses. Improved sugar rich cow pasture, grain feeds coated in molasses.

Lack of real work and exercise.

Of course there are some charlatans out there and the best way to protect yourself is knowledge.

My own philosophy is to 'keep it simple' but the more you know the more complex it gets.
 
I am an expert in my horses welfare, I see them everyday and their wellbeing matters to me more than even the most dedicated vet/EDT/saddler etc. I'm the one who worries about the sick ones, notices when something just isn't right. I know them when they are well, I watch them, I handle them, I feel how they move.
What I need from the professionals is, knowledge, experience of other horses they have worked with, and information. Then, make up my own mind, use my gut instinct and either follow advice or look elsewhere.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top