Even more at a loss with my mare now...

Ellietotz

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Me again...

So just briefly, this is the timeline of what's been going on:

- Mare had ulcers a year a go, treated and scoped clear.
- This winter, routine changed and started coming in at night. She box walked and was very upset being in. Carried on for a couple of weeks in hope she would relax but no luck. Now out with a companion.
- Since then, behaviour has been getting worse, dropped weight again and very resistant to being touched (more so than normal). Ridden behaviour hasn't changed but became girthy again when tacking up.
- Also had been suspecting something off with the hind movement for a little while and now this has all happened, finally just decided to start investigating.
- Decided to get ovaries checked first. Results were clear and hormone levels were normal.
- Flexion was positive on right hind but only 1/10th lameness.
- Hind legs and back were xrayed. Nothing abnormal found.
- SI joint injected. Three weeks down the line today and so far, no improvement seen.
- Ulcer treatment began again 2 weeks a go. Not seen a huge difference yet.
- Hind suspensories scanned today and to my surprise, nothing to find.

I'm not even sure where to go from here. Part of me is starting to think that maybe this is all caused by something going on in the hind gut but I don't know. It's hard to know if she is actually in pain or if she is just being a moody mare which she definitely is as she doesn't like to be touched anywhere regardless, she isn't one that enjoys standing around being brushed, never has been.
I can't think of anything else that could be causing the 1/10th right hind lameness other than the hind gut now.
Perhaps finding the right diet and giving it time is the only way I'll have my answer.

What are your thoughts? If this was your horse, what would you do now?
 
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im in the process of sorting out multiple issues with my mare so I understand your frustration. Initially when I got the vet out he diagnosed her as just a moody mare and I was clearly just incompetent at handling her. I pressed for Bute trial and what do you know improvement. Eventually got her x-rayed and found mild KS (she still trotted up sound she was just very resistant and uncomfortable ridden). after diagnosis and more Bute she just kept spiralling worse though and it was suggested to me to see an osteopathic vet rather than scan her whole body to try and find something. I was sceptical to but so glad I did! still in the process of sorting an enlarged ovary but he managed to find many other things going on and improve them and I have a different horse. Unbelievable improvement in her gait even the next day. I know quite a few others who have had similar stories as well where regular vets have failed them. So that would be my next step!
 

SEL

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Equishure and Thunderbrooks gut restore (slippery elm) are my go-to when my horse has issues. Plus I add l-glutamine for a few weeks. Might be worth a try seeing as you've drawn a blank with the vets. I'm also a fan of supplementing vitamin E with tetchy horses.
 

Leo Walker

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The second vet said she was in pain all over though didn't she? I know that ulcers can cause them to be unhappy and some muscle stiffness but not to the extent she was showing. If the PSSM test hadn't been negative I'd be strongly suspecting that. Have you ever tried her on a PSSM diet?

I never tested Leo but if he wasn't supplemented with vitamin e he got tight and sore, and he was hugely improved off grass pretty much. Not everything needs to be off grass though. I'd be tempted to try a huge dose of vitamin e while I was treating the hindgut and ulcers
 

Ellietotz

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The second vet said she was in pain all over though didn't she? I know that ulcers can cause them to be unhappy and some muscle stiffness but not to the extent she was showing. If the PSSM test hadn't been negative I'd be strongly suspecting that. Have you ever tried her on a PSSM diet?

I never tested Leo but if he wasn't supplemented with vitamin e he got tight and sore, and he was hugely improved off grass pretty much. Not everything needs to be off grass though. I'd be tempted to try a huge dose of vitamin e while I was treating the hindgut and ulcers
How much would I need to feed for 450kg? The pure supplements I've found are 1000iu
 

SEL

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10,000iu is the amount I've seen other people suggest but you need one of the PSSM experts @SEL would be a good person to ask. It has to be natural oil as well as far as I know.
"Waves"

Eliie - I'd try a big dose for a month and see what happens. Make sure its natural (Equimins, Forage Plus, Progressive Earth) and go for 10000iU split across 2 meals. If there's going to be improvement then you would usually see it within 1-2 weeks and can taper down the dosage. If there's not improvement then the damage is only to your wallet because any excess vitamin E becomes expensive wee.

A desertspoon of salt would be good too, especially as we're going to have a grass flush this week.
 

Ellietotz

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"Waves"

Eliie - I'd try a big dose for a month and see what happens. Make sure its natural (Equimins, Forage Plus, Progressive Earth) and go for 10000iU split across 2 meals. If there's going to be improvement then you would usually see it within 1-2 weeks and can taper down the dosage. If there's not improvement then the damage is only to your wallet because any excess vitamin E becomes expensive wee.

A desertspoon of salt would be good too, especially as we're going to have a grass flush this week.
Is salt okay with ulcers? I read somewhere that it wasn't.
 

milliepops

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(can I briefly interrupt here, one of mine has what I consider to be quite tight muscles all the time, she tested negative on the hair test ... I tried her on vit e but it possibly wasn't a high enough dose, would you try again in my shoes? SEL/LW?
 

SEL

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(can I briefly interrupt here, one of mine has what I consider to be quite tight muscles all the time, she tested negative on the hair test ... I tried her on vit e but it possibly wasn't a high enough dose, would you try again in my shoes? SEL/LW?
I'm a fan of trying it because I know a fair few horses who changed for the better really quickly. Can you remember how much you used? The bigger dose will really show you if there is an underlying problem and it is 'just' expensive wee if there isn't.

There was some study on TBs who under performed showing signs of oxidative stress. Vitamin E was a useful antioxidant for them. I did ask my vet but she just pointed out neither of my horses were TBs.....
 
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I'm a fan of trying it because I know a fair few horses who changed for the better really quickly. Can you remember how much you used? The bigger dose will really show you if there is an underlying problem and it is 'just' expensive wee if there isn't.

There was some study on TBs who under performed showing signs of oxidative stress. Vitamin E was a useful antioxidant for them. I did ask my vet but she just pointed out neither of my horses were TBs.....

Mine is one that has shown exactly this. Negative for PSSM1 and pre / post exercise bloods didn't show elevated CK ans AST levels but the difference when I added vit e and alcar was undeniable. I now manage as a PSSM type 2. I saw improvements within days of adding in the vit e but the alcar gave much more subtle and long term changes.

I've also found Equisure to be very effective
 
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Ellietotz

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Mine is one that has shown exactly this. Negative for PSSM1 and pre / post exercise bloods didn't show elevated CK ans AST levels but the difference when I added vit e and alcar was undeniable. I now manage as a PSSM type 2. I saw improvements within days of adding in the vit e but the alcar gave much more subtle and long term changes.

I've also found Equisure to be very effective
My brain is scambled! What should I feed as a base for the supplements?
 

Tiddlypom

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(can I briefly interrupt here, one of mine has what I consider to be quite tight muscles all the time, she tested negative on the hair test ... I tried her on vit e but it possibly wasn't a high enough dose, would you try again in my shoes? SEL/LW?
My mare was transformed for the better on high doses of vit E, although she too tested -ve for PSSM1 on the tail hair test. She had very tight muscles, was stiff behind and was so grumpy that I was on the verge of returning her to her breeder.

I use Forageplus nat vit E at between 5000 iu and 10,000 iu per day.
 

ycbm

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(can I briefly interrupt here, one of mine has what I consider to be quite tight muscles all the time, she tested negative on the hair test ... I tried her on vit e but it possibly wasn't a high enough dose, would you try again in my shoes? SEL/LW?
I would try it again with alcar as well. My definitely PSSM horse needed both.

My other turned out only to need vitamin E, not alcar.

Theoretically it is possibly to overdose vitamin E as they store it in the liver. So when you've had an improvement, play around with the dose to see what the lowest you can go to. I've found it varies a lot between winter and summer, with at least twice as much needed in winter when it isn't in the grass, and half as much again spring and autumn. Your purse will also thank you, it's very expensive stuff!

Both my vitamin E only horse and my PSSM horse needed less than 10000 even in winter, and a lot less in summer.

Both natural and synthetic will work, but it is a combination of chemicals and synthetic has only half as much in it of the one you need. So you have to feed twice as much, and it's about half the price, so it makes no sense unless it's all you can find.
 
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ycbm

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The hair test is for type 1 only, the kind that is prevalent in quarter horses and appaloosas, but also occurs in others.

There is a gene test for type 2 in the US but I'm not sure how effective it is. There is increasing belief that there are more than two, possibly way more than two, muscle myopathies that respond to vitamin E/alcar/high oil/low sugar diets.

The definitive test for type 2 is a muscle biopsy from the muscle at the top of the tail, which shows a very characteristic fragmented pattern if a horse is PSSM.
 

Leo Walker

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(can I briefly interrupt here, one of mine has what I consider to be quite tight muscles all the time, she tested negative on the hair test ... I tried her on vit e but it possibly wasn't a high enough dose, would you try again in my shoes? SEL/LW?
I would. I never tested Leo but he was significantly improved with a high dose of vitamin e. I never looked into it any further than that with him, as it worked and I didnt want to mess about with anything that was working. He didnt really have any symptoms though, other than being happier in himself when on it.

You've got nothing to lose by trying
 
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